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Michael Dugger

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The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« on: June 09, 2003, 04:11:51 PM »
Lately there has been a run of posts about agronomic issues.  It has me wondering about how much our golf course architects truly know about this complicated science.  

While a golf course designer turns his project over to a greenskeeper once the course is constructed, how much knowledge of agronomy does one need to have in the beginning?  

I imagine it is essential to have knowledge of grasses in creating GRASS CONTRAST.  I imagine it is essential to know what grasses will grow well in what climates.  I have a superintendent buddy who is constantly inundating me with his theories on how different grasses make such a HUGE difference in playing conditions.  Aside from the difference in putting on something like Bermuda, for example, where you have to take the direction the grass is laying/lying into consideration, I have a hard time buying into the bit about there being a HUGE distinction in playing conditions between different grasses.  Is fast and firm Bermuda different from fast and firm Bent.  Does cutting to 1/32 vs 1/16 makes that much difference in the fairways and around the greens?  Can Bermuda get fast and firm, or is this only applicable to fescues? (or others?)  If a golf course designer has a grass guru on board could they, in theory, be quite oblivious to the subject and rely on their teammates for agronomic matters?

I know it's a lot of questions but let it fly wherever you deem fit.      
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Forrest Richardson

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2003, 05:41:11 PM »
The golf architect needs to know about 10 to 40% as much as a good, well-experienced agronomist. Of course, more may be helpful in some situations...and it is always possible that a GCA might know more about a particular region, etc.  But, today, most projects have specialized consultants who carry the burden..."most projects".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Steve Lang

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2003, 06:00:52 PM »
;D

I say when a GCA uses grass conceptually as framing or painting a picture and perhaps at owners direction to reduce acreage needed to maintain, then they haven't thought it all out very well, and in my opinion failed in GCA.  So I think agronomy is very important!

At the WCC Panther Trail (old Pines/North course) we now have snakes and rats and the like... as well as landowner lawsuits brewing over the ugly "concept" long grass closely bordering the place.. no amount of wildflowers is ever going to reduce the ire this has wrought..

On a technical note, since agronomy has to be closely considered in the site's water balance, as well as playability it is definitely important.

I had the pleasure of playing The Bayonet at Puppy Creek on the south flank of Ft Bragg while playing around Southern Pines/Pinehurst NC area in late May and this turf grower turned golf course developer has done an excellent job of mixing the turf set-ups in different areas of the course.  The greens were the best of 7 courses played, so there's a real world example.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Joe Hancock

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2003, 08:06:40 PM »
I was an irrigation tech at a Dye club in NC. The decision was made to use centipedegrass in the roughs, to reduce maintenance. It it the exact opposite of the bermudagrass fairways in terms of nitrogen requirements. (Thats where the low maintenance angle came from....slow growing on bunker faces, low fertility, etc.) What happened was every part of the centipede that got fertilized during the first year of grow-in was killed that first winter...centipede can't handle nitrogen and cold together. After that first year, the fairways were fertilized around the perimeters with walk behind drop spreaders to avoid further damage....so much for informed agronomic decisions to reduce maintenance!

It's critical for the success of any new project to have a reasonablly well informed architect and superintendent who are willing to research their grass options together...and come to a sensible conclusion about what will bring long term success to each individual project.

Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Forrest Richardson

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2003, 08:15:15 PM »
I think an appropriate "poster child" of this thread is the Apache Stronghold course in eastern Arizona. I have been there twoce recently and can attest that the choices of turfgrass were, at best, poorly handled. It seems they made the "right" choice, but failed to plan on how to maintain it. Then, they changed and now have been dealing with awful transitions. In speaking with the greenkeeper yesterday it seems like it's back on track, but, gee, after several years you might expect more. The architect needs to be forceful in getting good decisions made — mostly he/she needs to ensure good people are at the helm and making the good decisions. I am confident Apache Stronghold will prevail, but it is a shame that a good design has been tainted by such wrongful decisions and care.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Michael Dugger

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2003, 08:40:32 PM »
Mr. Lang,

Could you please extrapolate a little bit in regards to something you said in your earlier post.

"On a technical note, since agronomy has to be closely considered in the site's water balance, as well as playability it is definitely important."

What is a site's "water balance"?
How do you achieve it?
Why is it important?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Forrest Richardson

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2003, 08:53:58 PM »
mdugger --

I believe Water balance is the effect of how many water hazards you have on one side versus the other. This is sometimes called the "Shueman Effect", but rarely used now-a-days in favor of simply, Water Balance. MacKenzie used this theory quite well in his day, creating such wonderful...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Steve Lang

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2003, 06:20:11 AM »
;)

thanks Forrest, Mack aside... any mass or material balance is simply

input-output=accumulation

Certainly most if not all agronomic choices will influence water balance definitions.. evapotranspiration, condensation, precipitation, infiltration, percolation, run-off... i.e., all the elements of a site's water balance and fit into the locale's overall hydrologic cycle



its not got the moxy of "lines of charm" and visual psychological impacts of cross bunkering and travel over the alps in this group's lexicon of GCA effects.. but how else can one quantify how a maintenance meld is to be reproduced and "over-watering" of open approaches etc. brought under control.. definition of the water balance I say!

I believe it can be achieved by measuring-monitoring soil moisture, groundwater levels, etc. in a coordinated holistic manner across a site.  Some practical ones say bunk to such type science being applied in GCA, won't work, too much area and uncertainty, just go cut the grass and put the water sprinklers on good timers.. keep an eye on the weather, know your course needs and let mother nature run the basic things and just supplement.  Fine for them, time to move into the 20th century!  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Forrest Richardson

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2003, 06:29:56 AM »
Steve,

I recognize the mountains, terrain and a few other elements. But what are the things floating in the sky and what is that blue stuff coming down toward the mountains? I've seen nothing like that here in the West...at least that I can recall...?

Also, I believe this diagram is of a site which later became a Jeff Brauer layout called, "Treeworld Golf Resort & Spa". Am I right on that?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Steve Lang

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2003, 06:55:10 AM »
;D

Forrest,

Actually it came from Mountain Lakewood GC, .. kinda like a spruce-pine-fir 2x4..

Hey, we get 56 or so inches a year of rain over here and even parking lot drainage is a big deal.. what's your pan evaporation rate in that arid clime of yours?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

RJ_Daley

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2003, 06:57:49 AM »
Some architects have the knowledge and credentials to make informed decisions to deviate from conventional wisdom like the USGA formula and construction method of greens construction because they understand the sites agronomy aspect.  To modify the formula and construction method is to take a risk.  If the archie can save the budget by recognition that soil and weather conditions allows for certain modification, he can save a bit on the budget.  But, he has to know whether a penny saved now in construction and turf selection will be a dollar of maintanence later.

It isn't just which species of turf on a given soil and micro climate and end user profile, but which cultivars and what if any diversity % to use.  If the developer is a chintz and doesn't have a turf professional and soil agronimist on board from the planning stage, the archie darn well better know something!  :-/ :-[
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Forrest Richardson

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2003, 07:39:36 AM »
Avg. Pan. Evap. Rate (Phoenix) = .8
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

RJ_Daley

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2003, 09:06:42 AM »
Oh Forrest ;D ::), pan evapotranspiration figures are so passe for the turf manager.  Below is more specific ET/o method for the modern GCA and his faithful sidekick turf professional... :P


Derivation of the FAO Penman-Monteith equation for the hypothetical grass reference crop:

With standardized height for wind speed, temperature and humidity measurements at 2 m (zm = zh = 2 m) and the crop height h = 0.12 m, the aerodynamic and surface resistances become (Boxes 4 & 5):

ra = 208/u2 s m-1, (with u2 wind speed at 2 m height)
rs = 70 s m-1
(1 + rs/ra) = (1 + 0.34 u2)
 
Rn and G is energy available per unit area and expressed in MJ m-2 day-1. To convert the energy units for radiation to equivalent water depths (mm) the latent heat of vaporization, l is used as a conversion factor (Chapter 1). The conversion from energy values to equivalent depths of water or vice versa is given by (Eq. 20):


 
By substituting cp with a rearrangement of Eq. 8:

 

and considering the ideal gas law for r a:

 

where TKv the virtual temperature, may be substituted by:

TKv = 1.01(T+273)

results in:

 [MJ m-2 °C-1 day-1]

where

cp specific heat at constant pressure [MJ kg-1 °C-1],
r a mean air density at constant pressure [kg m-3],
ra aerodynamic resistance [s m-1],
g psychrometric constant [kPa °C-1],
e ratio molecular weight of water vapour/dry air = 0.622,
l latent heat of vaporization [MJ kg-1],
u2 wind speed at 2 m [m s-1],
R specific gas constant = 0.287 kJ kg-1 K-1,
T air temperature [°C],
P atmospheric pressure [kPa],

 [MJ m-2 °C-1 day-1]

or, when divided by l (l = 2.45),

 [mm °C-1 day-1]
 

All of which goes to show that we are certainly in over our heads... :-/ :P ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Steve Lang

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2003, 10:29:33 AM »
;D :o

RJ_D, I wondered where Forrest was..

Shucks, with spreadsheets these days ???, this stuff is easy, in older days or daze, more pain setting something like this problem up under Fortran or Basic programming options let alone by hand for more than several conditions..

why didn't you show the folks the P-M basis skematic?



Maybe 98% do need to set their sprinklers to supplement mother nature.. and just get the grass cut.. but in the 21st Century there are more tools available if folks want to avail themselves..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

RJ_Daley

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2003, 10:53:05 AM »
;D ;D ;D

Criminy sakes Steve, I'm lucky I can cut and paste text from the FAO, not schematics.  You don't think I'm a braniac that actually understands this stuff do you?  Why, I'd have to be some kind of a golf course architect or something. :-[
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Marty Bonnar

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2003, 11:02:40 AM »
Hey M!
For the avoidance of doubt I thought it about time I listed the topics we've covered in this MSc course thing we're doing! (apologies to Phillips and y'all if he's already covered this....) I'm sure there's not been enough agronomy, but there's also not been enough of all of the following:
History of Golf Course Architecture
History of Landscape Architecture
Law
Planning
Ecology
CAD + Graphics
Golf Course Establishment and Mangement (your bit, I believe!!!)
Plus about a dozen assorted design projects, ten or so essays...

What I'm getting at is that: It's a ridiculously wide-ranging topic; A year is hopelessly inadequate to learn how to 'do' GCA; You gotta start somewhere....!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2003, 11:05:22 AM »
Wow, now I feel lazy because all I do is dial up my weather station and get the ET for the last 24 hours. I guess I should be in my office calculating ;)

Seriously, I don't know many supers who use the "feel good" method of irrigation scheduling anymore. Most I know use ET and crop coefficients to determine how much to water and precip rates and infiltration rates to determine how many cycles to use to get the desired amount in the soil. Of course, if you learn my trade in an area where the state only allows you to use about 80% of the water all the research says you'll need, you learn to be pretty stingy with the turf.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Lang

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2003, 11:14:46 AM »
:D

RJ_D,

No.. definitely.. no pre-conceptions for anyone on this site.. because they never seem to hold true for too long, especially with da GCA Doyens.. Men of Mensa-letters some, maybe,.. but no rocket scientists discerned yet..

Perhaps Agronomy is both the first and last frontier in GCA.. its importance has come full circle and the serpent is about to bite off some more of itself..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2003, 04:14:48 PM »
Like most things in golf construction, the agronomy has become more sophisticated.  As a result, whereas in the RTJ era, the architect probably made all the agronomic decisions, now it is more likely than not to have a qualified agronomist like Terry Buchen on the project.  We run more soil and water tests, and of course, there are more grasses, fertilizers (do we go organic?) choices than ever before.

A golf course architect needs to be familiar with these issues, but can't really keep up.  It's the same cycle as irrigation.  We used to design our own irrigation, but it deserves someone who keeps up with products and trends full time.....

Ditto with the greens mix.  We typically have a half dozen prototype samples designed by a lab, field testing, and more lab testing by the original lab during the mixing phase.

I have tried to select grasses with the aesthetics in mind, such as picking the bluest of blue grasses for contrasting rough against bent fairways.  But, if you lay any sod, the chances of a local supplier having the exact same variety is virtually nil.  Also, most projects start without a superintendent, but soon acquire one, and his experience, unless coming in from a new area, is also invaluble, and the one I lean on.  There is still something to be said for "local knoweldge."  

And don't even get me started on the pressure we get from the seed jockeys (ie salesman) coming in and telling everyone who will listen just how bad a selection we made earlier, which can ONLY be corrected by purchasing his seed......

In a way, most architects sort of lament giving up even any control over those decisions.  On the other hand, the possibility of lawsuits makes us think that we are "covering" ourselves a bit better if we have more expertise an agronomist affords.  

Given how fast the field changes yearly, the real consideration is having someone who studies agronomy full time assisting us in making the calls on turf and fertilizers.....as it helps the owner get the best product.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Brian Phillips

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2003, 01:00:23 AM »
MDugger,

My opinion on agronomy is this:

All architects should know enough about the different types of grasses that can be used in the area the course is being built.  He should then choose a number of grasses he wants.  It is here where I might differ from others...I come to that point of crossing that fine line of a little information can dangerous..

I choose a number of grasses that might work and then I bring in my agronomist (a guy called Stuart Ashworth) to then help me decide what really would work.  He listens to my 'boring theories' on what contrasts I want to achieve and what I feel the budget of the client is in relation to what type of seed to buy and the grasses they can maintain.  He then makes a report which is delivered to the client.  In the end the client makes a decision from our selection.

The important thing an architect needs to know is when to STOP...and get help.  Much the same as my theory on everything and your mothers theory....There is only one type of stupid question and that is the one that didn't get asked.

I think I am luckier than Forrest and Jeff because of the climate I work in.  I can choose fescue grasses that give a fine texture to play off and give a beautiful contrast when used in the rough.  I can also use creeping bent on my greens.  I have used A4 for the past two years with tremendous success but we have also used Pennlinks which is an old cultivar that not too many use anymore on greens but it worked perfect last year.

I chuckle at what Jeff said about the seed jockeys because it is just the same here, they are always telling you that the seed you have chosen is bad unless it is one of their own of course!!

Brian.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

RT

Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2003, 01:16:39 AM »
Varying soils and their behaviours (internal water movement, infiltration, water holding capacities, presence of oxygen) is vitally important to understand, and this includes the subsoils too.  This is, after all, what supports the ability to grow grass and is the foundation for which we play off a surface.

RT
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RT

Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2003, 01:22:21 AM »
Varying soils and their behaviours (internal water movement, infiltration, water holding capacities, presence of oxygen) is vitally important to understand, and this includes the subsoils too.  This is, after all, what supports the ability to grow grass and is the foundation for which we play off a surface.

RT
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom_Doak

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2003, 05:14:17 AM »
Forrest:

I'm not sure I appreciate your nomination of Apache Stronghold as a "poster child" for agronomy issues.  It was a tough job in a tough climate that really had no parallels to draw from, and it was a very political issue there as well with many consultants not of my choosing.

Would be glad to discuss it further with you offline if you really care.  I will just hope for your sake you never get in the middle of a project with that many complications.

As for the general question, I think a working knowledge of agronomy is a very important part of golf course architecture.  It's much more than just the texture of grasses -- it's what will work with what, and what will work best considering the climate and soils.  

It's also about handling the soils!  Most golf course construction projects produce unhealthy growing conditions because of the way the soils are compacted during construction and the way topsoil (if any) is carelessly put back.  Not many architects realize this, I think, or more would be "minimalists" on the ground and not just in the magazines.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2003, 08:33:34 AM »

Quote
It's also about handling the soils!  Most golf course construction projects produce unhealthy growing conditions because of the way the soils are compacted during construction and the way topsoil (if any) is carelessly put back.  Not many architects realize this, I think, or more would be "minimalists" on the ground and not just in the magazines.

Tom,

I am surprised at that statement because to me that is an obvious thing!!  Surely most top architects of this era know how careful we have to be with topsoil?  It is something that was always shoved down my throat when I was in construction (not only in golf course construction) that the more we messed with topsoil (transportation and moving it in general) the more we would affect the composition of it normally causing the reduction of pore spaces etc.

I find it hard to believe that any architect wouldn't apprieciate this.  The hardest problem Jeremy and I had last year was constructors trying to work in wet weather with topsoil.  I stopped work a number times and they were not happy about in the end topsoil is the heart of the course.  If it is in poor shape you are always going to be fighting to keep the grass alive.

Brian.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tom_Doak

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Re: The importance of agronomy to a golf designer
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2003, 11:01:15 AM »
Brian,

Yes, most architects realize the value of topsoil to the point of beating up contractors who abuse it.

But the best way to protect topsoil is to figure out how not to disturb it to begin with.  The last construction site I was on (whose architect shall remain nameless) had all the topsoil stripped for about 200 yards, so that they could fill 1-2 feet in some areas and re-shape the fairway.  The difference this made to the design was trivial compared to the damage it did to the soils.

And, if you're going to disturb things like that, the key would be to do it quickly so that the soil doesn't sit in a pile for six weeks before re-spreading!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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