News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #125 on: September 16, 2007, 09:51:18 AM »
Tom Doak --

Thanks for your answer.

For my own part, I thought it was beyond obvious that a whole bunch of people already in the business are better prepared to get a course built than any of us amateurs is.

But if that needs to be stipulated: So stipulated.

---------

To all: The question was whether we thought we could "design" a decent golf course, not whether we could design a decent course and get it built right.

I doubt if ANYONE minimizes the difficulty of getting it designed and built right.

--------------------

Ray Richard writes: "They don’t know about the 'fog of war' that is golf course construction; pushing contractors, weather delays, obnoxious owners, and backstabbers lurking behind the scenes. There is a connection between creative souls and jealousy that is amazing, everybody wants you to fail but everybody wants credit."

Fun business!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #126 on: September 16, 2007, 10:00:29 AM »
Dan,
I guess my problem is I view designing a golf course as creating a golf course. If we're just talking about doodling on a piece of paper…well then of course everyone here can easily do that.

It's designing something that fits the land and functions that separates the doodlers from the pros...The design has to work...and you'll only know that if you know what it takes to get it in the ground. The design and the building are intertwined and inseparable...IMO.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #127 on: September 16, 2007, 10:37:44 AM »
Tom Doak,

I think you have to draw a distinction between the creative process and the mechanical process.

If one doesn't have the creative talent, the inherent ability to analyze and conceptualize, all the collateral technical help in the world won't produce a decent product.

If an individual has the creative talent, wouldn't you agree that the collateral mechanical assistance only becomes a marginal plus/minus factor to the core product ?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #128 on: September 16, 2007, 10:43:28 AM »
Don Mahaffey,

My question asked, "could you design a decent GOLF COURSE ?"

The answer to that question can only be determined by playing and evaluating the product, not looking at it in it's conceptual form on paper.

As to design and construction being inextricably entwined, I don't agree with that in the absolute.

Certainly someone has to transition the concepts from mind and paper into the ground.

But, as you know, that's why clubs and/or architects hire sub-contractors, hence, my perspective sees that facet as being a marginal one.

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #129 on: September 16, 2007, 11:59:51 AM »
Dan:

I spent about five years being a grunt laborer and then a plan-drawer and then a greens finisher and a shaper and a lead associate before I ever tried to design anything on my own.  Yes, of course, I was learning from everybody along the way.  I am still learning.  And I think have a bigger payroll to help me create courses than anybody who posts here.

The premise of this question is that posters could design a decent course RIGHT NOW, without that apprenticeship -- but many have qualified that they could do it if they had the right people looking over their shoulder.

I'm just trying to point out that there are lots of people in the business who are more trained to design and build courses than most of the posters here, yet most of them can't get a chance.  So it's pretty naive to think that they would all help someone from Golf Club Atlas get their break instead.  

I had a great advantage on that when I was 21.  Nobody thought I had a freaking chance at it, so they were all willing to share their knowledge!

Tom

I think you would agree that your studies and apprenticeship make you an almost unique case in the field. I doubt anyone here is undervaluing that. I also doubt that Pat, desite his tendency to refine the parameters of his questions over time, was asking if we thought we could build a decent golf course without appropriate technicians.

Consider my case in 1983. I had not attended any courses to study music theory, composition, music production or anything to do with writing or producing music.
I did however have 12 years experience of critically listening to music, observing musicians, reading pretty much eveeything that was out there worth reading, and I developed an aethetic which proved to be pretty much unique.
I was lucky enough to assemble a team of 7 people - 4 musicians, all more technically gifted and more experienced than I, a great orchestrator, a manager and a sympathetic experienced engineer/producer. I was able to put the team together, I guess, because I had an idea, and it covered the music, the sounds, and the presentation, and I must have been persuasive. The manager certainly was and I believe his advantage was that he believed in my talent 100%. After one year we had produced a record which was a collaborative work, for sure, but at no time in the process was there any doubt about who was in charge. I was. I asked for advice when I needed it. I directed operations when it was clear to me what needed to be done. When I had an idea of how something should sound but didn't know how to get that sound - we consulted.

There were quite a few recording conventions rejected in the making of the record, and this wasn't a fight, because the producer knew it was my project and if I wanted my guitar to be completely unprocessed, then why not? My vocals were recorded on a microphone used for female vocals, normally, I liked the bright, almost abrasive sound, so that's what we did. There were numerous rules of musical theory that were broken, there are parallel fifths all over the record, there is unison everywhere. There is not one harmony vocal. Fortunatlely I wasn't aware of that any of this was in any way rebellious or even left field. I was just doing what I thought sounded good.

I had a clear picture of what I wanted and the team trusted me. I could not operate a mixing board, tape machine, I had no understanding of microphone positioning, I knew pretty much nothing of that side of things. Frankly, I wan't interested. I was interested in making a record.

That record has allowed me to remain in my field of work, pretty much as long as I like. It has often been in various lists of best this and best that.

I now know a great deal about how to record music, I even understand a little of music theory, I am not a bad musician, these days. I have gained knowledge by osmosis, mainly, by being around people who know what they are doing. And by trial and error in my own studios.
All this knowledge is useful to me now.

'Rattlesnakes' (the album we made which came out in 1984) may not be the Pine Valley of pop/rock, but it is highly valued by many, and I'm convinced that it could not have been made with a trained, experienced person at the helm. It was made, I should add, for 30,000 pounds - a relatively small budget for the times, even for a debut album.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 12:05:17 PM by Lloyd_Cole »

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ? New
« Reply #130 on: September 16, 2007, 12:08:34 PM »
Dan:

I spent about five years being a grunt laborer and then a plan-drawer and then a greens finisher and a shaper and a lead associate before I ever tried to design anything on my own.  Yes, of course, I was learning from everybody along the way.  I am still learning.  And I think have a bigger payroll to help me create courses than anybody who posts here.

The premise of this question is that posters could design a decent course RIGHT NOW, without that apprenticeship -- but many have qualified that they could do it if they had the right people looking over their shoulder.

I'm just trying to point out that there are lots of people in the business who are more trained to design and build courses than most of the posters here, yet most of them can't get a chance.  So it's pretty naive to think that they would all help someone from Golf Club Atlas get their break instead.  

I had a great advantage on that when I was 21.  Nobody thought I had a freaking chance at it, so they were all willing to share their knowledge!

Tom,
Do you think all of the guys in the business are really looking for a chance to design their own courses?  If so, what do you think flies in the face of their success?  Are you just referring to guys who are at a lead associate level?  

The stone mason, finish carpenter, or dozer guy grading the tennis court isn't waiting in the wings to become an aspiring Philip Johnson or Dan Kiley -- and they will tell you so.   Most are happy contributing their part to the overall process.  Same with scientific research -- you have the principal investigator who gets his name on all of the papers coming out of his/her lab, but he or she may have not done any of the nitty-gritty experimentation and data collection... the name gets the funding for the research, but the research is carried out by many different people in the program, who are either techs or academics who will someday be PI's.  So it is very analogous with your progression to owner of a successful golf design business.

Paul,
I've sent you an IM so as not to bore everyone.  Thanks for your candid response, as always....

« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 05:47:48 AM by JMorgan »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #131 on: September 16, 2007, 01:07:12 PM »

As to design and construction being inextricably entwined, I don't agree with that in the absolute.

But, as you know, that's why clubs and/or architects hire sub-contractors, hence, my perspective sees that facet as being a marginal one.

Pat --
Some don't use sub-contracts -- even on thier first projects.  :)

It is not marginal.
I'd say that given the same project -- every contractor would build it differently and it would look different when finished.

I'll even say using the same golf contractor a project would wind up different -- different shapers, project guys, labor....

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #132 on: September 16, 2007, 02:59:54 PM »
My question asked, "could you design a decent GOLF COURSE ?"

The answer to that question can only be determined by playing and evaluating the product, not looking at it in it's conceptual form on paper.

If this is true, then how do course developers differentiate among competing designs for a given project?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #133 on: September 16, 2007, 04:02:02 PM »
My question asked, "could you design a decent GOLF COURSE ?"

The answer to that question can only be determined by playing and evaluating the product, not looking at it in it's conceptual form on paper.

If this is true, then how do course developers differentiate among competing designs for a given project?

THEY DON'T.

The market place differentiates and determines the merits of the finished product.

The developer merely makes an informed guess, and, developers often don't look at golf courses from an artistic or architectural perspective, rather from a financial perspective.

How would you describe Nicklaus's body of work, especially in the context of the perception of the developer, of the product, in the design stage ?

Do you think that most projects have numerous competing architects presenting their full blown renditions/designs to the developer ?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #134 on: September 16, 2007, 04:03:54 PM »
Tom Doak,

You're probably more familiar with Pete Dye's introduction to GCA, his transition from insurance salesman to architect.

How did he manage to become a successful architect absent a long term apprenticeship or a joint venture with an established architectural firm ?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 04:08:16 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #135 on: September 16, 2007, 06:22:40 PM »
Tom Doak,

You're probably more familiar with Pete Dye's introduction to GCA, his transition from insurance salesman to architect.

How did he manage to become a successful architect absent a long term apprenticeship or a joint venture with an established architectural firm ?

Patrick....I know you asked Tom but I feel qualified to venture an answer;

I would suggest he taught himself what he needed to know to reach his goals and found a way to get what he wanted accomplished....and through hard work he made his breaks in the process.

And this is a business that usually requires a break of some sort....but you have to put yourself in the way of a break to happen.

I don't know for sure if this was Pete's path....but I do know for sure it was mine.

I never served a long apprenticeship nor joint ventured with anyone, I don't have an LA degree, or any other for that matter.

I'll leave it up to you or others to decide if I am successful.

Good post Lloyd.

JM...I will email later...paul
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 06:38:37 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #136 on: September 16, 2007, 06:41:46 PM »
Tom Doak,

You're probably more familiar with Pete Dye's introduction to GCA, his transition from insurance salesman to architect.

How did he manage to become a successful architect absent a long term apprenticeship or a joint venture with an established architectural firm ?

Patrick....I know you asked Tom but I feel qualified to venture an answer;
I would suggest he taught himself what he needed to know to get reach his goals and found away to get what he wanted accomplished....and through hard work he made his breaks in the process.

And this is a business that usually requires a break of some sort....but you have to put yourself in the way of a break to happen.

I don't know for sure if this was Pete's path....but I do know for sure it was mine.

I never served a long apprenticeship nor joint ventured with anyone, I don't have an LA degree, or any other for that matter.

I'll leave it up to you or others to decide if I have made it.

Good post Lloyd.

JM...I will email later...paul
Paul,
Same here.  Never got a LA degree......knew what i wanted to do and went about it as another had suggested by working in the turf industry and not for another golf architect on purpose....BUT that job allowed me to be around it all day everyday for 9 years....worked each summer on a construction job.....listened to supts and saw the attitudes taken in the field toward the young associates w/LA degrees coming out and telling them how to do it....
I do know that when you first start out this way many of the established with LA degrees will tell clients you are not qualified, Jackleg etc.....as someone said earlier...this is a cutthroat business for many.....
BUT
When I think about it.....how many of the signatures, Dye, Fazio, Jones, Nicklaus, Norman have LA dregrees.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #137 on: September 16, 2007, 10:58:03 PM »
Great, thoughtful post, Lloyd. Thanks for that inside view.

As to hiring a bunch of talented folks with GCA experience to help if I managed to get the gig, well, wouldn't I be a moron NOT to do so? If there's so many of them out there waiting for their chance, wouldn't a few of them 1) want the paycheck, and 2) figure that a good way to make their name would be by being the main guy behind a novice GCA? Couldn't that be said of some folks who work behind the scenes for more famous names who get architecture gigs without the experience? Or would all those guys be so offended that I got the chance and they didn't that they would refuse to work with me?

Look, it ain't gonna happen, so no need to get into a tizzy about it. I have nothing but respect for GCA's. If I happen to have a pipe dream about building my own golf course, it shouldn't offend anyone. I'm not dissing anyone.

But I still think I could do it.

And Lloyd - I think I could be a rock star too !

 ;)
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Gib_Papazian

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #138 on: September 17, 2007, 01:15:42 AM »
This thread started out with what appeared a fairly simple, straightforward question. Five pages later, Sambo and the Tiger have been chasing each other around the tree so many times the entire subject - and my brain - has turned to butter.

So, let me qualify my original response, given recent first-hand observations working with an architect presented with a series of seemingly insurmountable problems.

In theory then, let's rephrase the question:

If handed a couple of dozers and a pile of irrigation pipe, stacked atop an irregularly shaped series of hard clay corridors between tract houses, could I design and build a decent golf course taking into consideration the 100 year flood plain, the habitat of an endangered salamander, and using effluent water only?

No.

Happy now Mike? Tom? Since I am not allowed to use any outside experts in turf, construction or irrigation and am being held to a standard of having to know every single aspect of designing and building a golf course, then the answer is nay nay nay. You two can. I cannot, and neither can anybody on this site who does not do it for a living without making a mess of it.

We are all a bunch of armchair, wannabe architects who don't know diddly squat and I would like to thank you for taking the time to bother to educate us on how little we know.

That stated, if there were not a whole bunch of insightful thoughts expressed on this site every day by "amateurs,' then none of the professionals would bother to log in.

But they do - and some of them are world famous. There are also a few lurkers I know in the same league, but too pussy to man-up and pop off under their own moniker.

Some GCA's might consider themselves auteur directors, but even Woody Allen had Gordon Willis when he first started making films, just like Tom Doak and John Harbottle had Pete Dye.

You have to start somewhere, but anybody with a passion for the subject, a willingness to learn and an eye for strategic and aesthetic elements can do this with a little mentoring.

Provided they are not thrown to the wolves right off the bat.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 02:09:15 AM by Gib Papazian »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #139 on: September 17, 2007, 09:32:46 AM »
Gib...I generally agree with your sentiments, but not totally.

I have tried to suggest that my learning curve in this business has not been typical....and because of that path, I have stuck with this thread, not so much to explain about me, but to give all you amateurs the hope [hopefully not a false one], that if I could do it, maybe some of you could too.

I was a GCArch wannabe with from my early twenties with no college degree, but I did have the ability to teach myself whatever it was I felt I needed to learn...a true primitive.

If you can read and comprehend, everything is out there in book form to learn.....agronomy, civil engineering, LA and Arch, site and land planning, construction etc.
If you combine this knowledge with field experience and the ability to manage people, employees and basic business...well , you have the makings of a perfect mess. ;D

I can't tell you how many times I have been asked if I could perform a certain function and I said have yes [but without having done so]....and then had to research and teach myself to be able to do it...usually performing with high grades.

On my first golf course, of which I had done the preliminary routing for as I had also done the surrounding land plan [all of which I had taught myself], I was asked by the developer if I could do all the working drawings, grading and drainage plans and see it through the permit process with all the agencies.

Although I had never done any of the above, I said sure....because I knew I could [I just had to do a lot of homework in private]....and it all worked out just fine [the course even got a GM Top 10 New].

I am just putting this out here to let some people know, especially a few that participate here, that there is a way....not one I would necessarily want my sons to follow, but there is another way .

 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 09:45:09 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #140 on: September 17, 2007, 12:35:31 PM »
...coming back into this after some 4 pages, I have to go along with Gib and Paul, and stick with some of what I originally said.  

There is a way, for someone highly motivated, and able to withstand the rigors of the learning curve that would insue.  I am sure I don't want to endure those rigors of trial and error, in all aspects of learning what can be done with land, and how to plan-present it, and actually do it.  At least not at my age...  ::)

I wouldn't have as much trepidation with being there everystep of the way, and having good input and ideas that would not only just work, but would be very good golf design.

In fact, I'd put Jim Thompson in the category of the man that can roll up his sleeves, learn what he needs to, has the balls to actually jump onto the machinery and participate at every step of the way.... But, with a Golf Course Architect on board, to guide the process, and allow Jim to learn as he went.  The results are far superior to just a decent golf course... the result is an excellent course.  

But, let's be honest here.  There are GCAs, members of ASGCA, and practicing designers who don't know all of it, if you are going to insist they know rules and regs in all aspects of land planning and usage, permitting, grading, cut and fill drawn plans and inventory, staging, procuring materials, planning irrigation to workably fit the design, and actually operating machinery.  I'm willing to bet there are plenty of GCAs out there that would be dead in the water without the FULL SUPPORT of land planning engineers whom they subcontract out who tell them how they must modify their design ideas to either pass permitting or make any drainage sense; irrigation planners and installers that come in and tell them what can and can't be done with original design concepts (forcing many design modifications); machinery operators that tell them that certain things can't or shouldn't be done because it doesn't work that way for the operator to translate an idea into a ground feature;  and grow-in turf professionals that have to tell them their idea may not make sense in maintenance.

There are probably a majority of GCAs who have their shingle out and open for business that have rudimentary understandings in associated fields, like machinery operation, or irrigation, but don't get too involved, because they know there are many people specialized and better at it, which ultimately saves money and later headaches.  

So, many of us like Paul suggests, could emmerse ourselves in various aspects of design, and with enough trial and error, and consulting with the sub-category experts, could eventually get a decent course built.  But, like many have already stated, it wouldn't be as efficient in time or money.  It would only be a monument to our own egos.  

Sometimes, with the right amount of financial comfort, that is enough...  ::) ;)  8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #141 on: September 17, 2007, 12:44:42 PM »
All golf courses evolve and are a product of more than one person, whilst the architect will contribute a big %, there are many skills that need to be imported to the project. After the course opens the architect is basically no more, the new man in control, the SUPER can influence the quality of that course or destroy it. The grow in period is another timezone where someone is plussing or minusing that project.
Some of the great courses have evolved over time and with others input and are certainly the product of more than the architect.
I think if you got a good low handicap superintendent you would be well on your way to being able to design a decent golf course. If you have time, you can work without plans and spend a lot of time in the field.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Paul Stephenson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #142 on: September 17, 2007, 03:09:26 PM »
Right now.  No way.  No chance.

Reading the posts on this site only solidifies what I don't know.  And it's lots.

That being said.  I know a lot more about the subject now than I did a year ago.

Many, many years from now I hope to be able to change my answer if/when this topic comes around again.

Maybe by then I'll be in the top 10 so I can consult on the GCA course.  ;D

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #143 on: September 17, 2007, 03:34:03 PM »
Hey, Thanks RJ!  That's a great compliment and much appreciated!

As to the question at hand, I don’t think I could design every facet of a golf course, but I do know I could do the routing, design the playing corridor and its features, and do most of the construction if I had to.  That said, I think I’d use my phone for the irrigation design and review and tweak someone else’s thoughts.  I’d probably also make a few calls for shaping and tweak along the way.  Rule number one is always – do what you know and get help with what you don’t.  Followed closely by rule number two – you can’t do everything yourself.  I’d want to do the green complexes and finish the surfaces as well, I think that worked out okay once before. 8)  Ideally I’d rather manage a project and serve as an oversight resource, project manager, task master type, who knows what he’s looking at and can stop a problem before it gets out of hand while using a good deal of common sense.  Any takers???? ;)

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #144 on: September 17, 2007, 03:44:11 PM »
Yea, ecept for drainage ect. which i hope I will learn about.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #145 on: September 17, 2007, 04:11:52 PM »
Hey, Thanks RJ!  That's a great compliment and much appreciated!

As to the question at hand, I don’t think I could design every facet of a golf course, but I do know I could do the routing, design the playing corridor and its features, and do most of the construction if I had to.  That said, I think I’d use my phone for the irrigation design and review and tweak someone else’s thoughts.  I’d probably also make a few calls for shaping and tweak along the way.  Rule number one is always – do what you know and get help with what you don’t.  Followed closely by rule number two – you can’t do everything yourself.  I’d want to do the green complexes and finish the surfaces as well, I think that worked out okay once before. 8)  Ideally I’d rather manage a project and serve as an oversight resource, project manager, task master type, who knows what he’s looking at and can stop a problem before it gets out of hand while using a good deal of common sense.  Any takers???? ;)

Cheers!

JT

JT-I think most architects would farm out the irrigation design, most archies will have a fair idea of head to head spacing and will make the job easy for the irrigation designers though, few will have the knowledge to understand pipe size reductions a pressure reductions/losses over slopes in much depth. So on that basis... you can do it!!!
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #146 on: September 17, 2007, 07:34:55 PM »
Adrian,

You are exactly right, but the one's worth their salt will go look at the flags before the system is put in or at least have someone they trust take a look see.  Anybody can draw triangles on a sheet and call it an irrigation plan, but there's so much more to it.  At the end of the day the two most technical things about a golf course are how to get the water on and, even more crucial, how to get the water off.  Variable speed drives, pump sizing, flow rates, pipe sizing, thrust blocks and check valves are mostly math problems, but a little common sense never hurt either.  I've seen some pretty bad irrigation designs so far and even on the good ones I've seen more then a few tweaks.  It never hurts to have the right numbers in the cell phone, if you know what I mean...

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Do you think you could design a decent golf course ?
« Reply #147 on: September 17, 2007, 07:40:48 PM »
Let's not focus on tangential issues like irrigation systems, they're not significant in determining the merits of the design of the golf course.

The architecture at Newport and Fisher's Island aren't diminished because those courses lack a complete, complex irrigation system.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back