[Tommy Williamsen]

This past August I played the Norman Course at Red Sky Ranch in Wolcott Colorado.  It is located in the Vail Valley a short distance west of the Vail ski area.  The course is about two miles south of I70 on the side of a mountain some three thousand feet above the valley.  I am not a fan of mountain golf.  Too often they have such severe elevation changes that a chair lift would not be out of place.  While the elevation changes at RSR are extreme, the routing is such that it is minimized.  I have only played a few of Norman’s courses, but have not been enamored with them.  I don’t know if this is his best but it sure is good.  On this course hitting a straight tee shot is imperative.  There is natural flora encountered as well as many fairway bunkers.  Indeed it is probably is over bunkered.  The greens have a lot of slope and are surrounded by a variety of different problems.  There are bunkers, rough, native grasses, and fall off chipping areas.

The tee shot on # 1 gives a good idea of the lay of the land.


The tee shot on #4 gives you an idea of the terraced nature of the land.  Most holes run parallel to the slope not up and down.


I think is #7.  It shows the green side bunkering.  


Typical tee shot on the course


Greenside fall off chipping area


Par three tenth


A little overbunkering on #12


Tee shot on #13


Close up of #13


280 yard par three 16th straight down hill


The par five finishing hole.


Playing partner.  I lost.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Thanks for the pics that refreshed my recollection of my visit to RSR in the summer of 2005. I really enjoyed the course. So far, it's the only Norman course I've played but it is highly regarded. Nothing like hitting a 200y 5iron at my advanced age.Dining alfresco at the clubhouse was a very good experience as well.

[cary lichtenstein]

We played this course twice, and thought it was excellent the first play and a year later we played it again and changed our opinion quite a bit.

I think this is one of the reasons that the raters should take more than one bite of the apple. You get past the shock and awe and see things in a better light.

[Peter Zarlengo]

Thats my first real look at the course since I toured it while it was under construction. Both the course and I have matured quite a bit since then, and I'm beggining to see things that I couldn't/didn't then.

Mountain golf tend to have a little more gimmicks, but after working on a mountain course this summer, I can see where routing, drainage, detention, and environmental factors play a large part in designing such a course . It seems like working parallel to the hillside makes sense in order to minimize extreme contours, but requires a lot of cut and fill.

I would classify RSR as a second home, golf destination. Its definately not the only one in the area, or the state for that matter. Must be doing pretty well from a development standpoint.

[Tommy Williamsen]

We played this course twice, and thought it was excellent the first play and a year later we played it again and changed our opinion quite a bit.

I think this is one of the reasons that the raters should take more than one bite of the apple. You get past the shock and awe and see things in a better light.

That is an interesting point.  There certainly is a wow factor.  I tried to ignore the views and look at the quality of the dessign.But as you mentioned the views are hard to ignore.  I would like to get a second shot at it in a year and see.

[mike_beene]

The Vail Valley in general is booming.And ,if you have ever tried to go through the Aspen historical regulations just to add on you appreciate the Vail experience even more.Kind of the Kingsbarns of ski resorts.

[Andy Troeger]

Tommy,
Is there any comparison between this course and the "new" Mountain Course at The Broadmoor? That course also tends to run parallel to the slope with only a couple of exceptions. Just curious if it is just the "look" that is similar or if it goes beyond that.

[Brad Swanson]

Man, I miss Colorado.

Cheers,
Brad

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Tommy, How many of the eye candy bunkers actually come into play?  

Looks like pretty good shaping on the greenside fall away chipping area photo.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,
Is there any comparison between this course and the "new" Mountain Course at The Broadmoor? That course also tends to run parallel to the slope with only a couple of exceptions. Just curious if it is just the "look" that is similar or if it goes beyond that.

I played the Mt course a few days before Red Sky Norman.  The vertical rise at Red Sky is much greater.  The first 13 holes at Red Sky inch their way up the slope.  At Broadmoor there are numerous holes that run parallel to the slope but also many that go up or down.  The terrain at the Mt course is much different.  It is more rugged, there are more trees and bushes, and the verical rise, while substantial, is not as great. The routing at the Mt course may have been more difficult because of the many rock outcroppings.  In many ways it is the more interesting site.    

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy, How many of the eye candy bunkers actually come into play?  

Looks like pretty good shaping on the greenside fall away chipping area photo.

Aactually more of the bunkers come into play than one would think.  The biggest problem is that some of them penalize the weaker player, who doesn't deserve the added punishment.
Some of the fairway bunkers are out of rreach for most humans and some of the greenside bunkers are out of play, except for a tragically hit shot.

[Sean_A]

Tommy

Thanks for posting.  The more I get to see of these mountain courses the less appealing they become.  This one is a real shocker with the awful looking bunkering - completely ott.  At some point people have to recognize that these mountainous areas are god's country and treat them accordingly.  

Ciao  

[Tim Pitner]

Tommy

Thanks for posting.  The more I get to see of these mountain courses the less appealing they become.  This one is a real shocker with the awful looking bunkering - completely ott.  At some point people have to recognize that these mountainous areas are god's country and treat them accordingly.    

As both a Coloradoan and a sometimes mountain golfer (it's great to get away from the Denver heat in the summer), I will say that over-development is a real issue in the mountains, especially along the I-70 corridor.  Even as a golfer, more golf courses is not always a good thing.  That said, if someone built a course here like Banff (or Tumble Creek, for that matter), you wouldn't hear any complaints from me.  

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy W:

Good pictures on RKR / Norman.

I have played a good bit in Colorado and have to say the Norman course is one of the really top tier public courses you can play in the state -- the tariff isn't cheap (believe it's $240 during the summer months).

Regarding the bunkering -- many of them do in fact come into play and you need to be aware onjust how deep the bunkers can be in certain spots. To Norman's credit -- the land does breathe a good bit more than the photos would indicate.

There's enough flexibility and playability thrown into the picture so those who are higher handicaps can play the course without any really forced carried of a Herculean sort.

Norman also incorporated plenty of greens where the slopes will carry balls off them if they aim a bit too wide with the approaches. I like this thinking rather than going with the overkill with rough and the like.

No doubt the terrain is challening but the good part is that you don't have the heavy slogs seen at other Colorado courses where you go straight uphill -- see the 18th at Sanctuary as one clear example.

Unfortunately, mountain courses often get panned by the "thumb your noses" types here on GCA who only prefer classic courses set in certain locations. Red Sky Ranch is a very challenging, fun and well crafted course. Those who venture to Wolcott can also easily head over to New Castle and play Lakota Canyon Ranch for a superb double-header indeed.

Sean:

Always enjoy people barking about courses but never having them played. Nothing like really solid analysis from a direct first hand connection.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy W:

Good pictures on RKR / Norman.

 
Unfortunately, mountain courses often get panned by the "thumb your noses" types here on GCA who only prefer classic courses set in certain locations. Red Sky Ranch is a very challenging, fun and well crafted course. Those who venture to Wolcott can also easily head over to New Castle and play Lakota Canyon Ranch for a superb double-header indeed.

Matt, I posted the pics of RSR and Black Rock because I felt that they would not be generally accepted.  Actually, I was pleasantly surprised by the responses.  

We who are fortunate enough to travel to different places appreciate the great diversity of golfing architectural styles.  We all have our personal likes and dislikes.  I am pleased when I find a course that changes my preconceived notions.  I generally don't like mt courses but this one made me re-evaluate that prejudice.  

[Kalen Braley]

Tommy,

Were you able to take in Lakota Canyon on your trip as well?  I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how those two compare...

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy,

Were you able to take in Lakota Canyon on your trip as well?  I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how those two compare...

I did not get to Lakota Canyon.  I had wanted to play there but time and distance precluded that.  I stayed in Breckenridge.  It is interesting that I received two messages from posters here that they wished they had not gone to LC.  They were very disappointed.  They did not elaborate.

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy W:

No doubt tastes in golf design will vary -- the issue is that certain people have narrow tastes buds and only prefer certain courses designed by certain people.

The work by Norman at Red Sky Ranch and Engh at Lakota Canyon Ranch is quite unique and certainly fun IMHO.

Clearly, mountain golf may not suit people but I will say this --Colorado golf has certainly elevated itself greatly with the two of these designs. Norman's effort at Red Sky Ranch is not awesome in its originality but the playing dimensions and the overall routing and diversity of holes is quite solid.

Most people need to realize that in going to Red Sky Ranch you need to avoid the TF layout and stick to the Norman.

[Tim Pitner]

Matt,

I'm curious--what is your opinion of some of the other notable courses in the Summit/Eagle county area (Breckenridge, Keystone Ranch, Keystone River, Raven at Three Peaks, etc.) and how does Red Sky Ranch compare to them?

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

I like what Lehman and company did at Raven at Three Peaks -- it's just that Silverthorne has such a short golf season. I think the back nine there is quite good -- very good in fact.

Breckenridge, Keystone Ranch & River are roughly the same in terms of their overall appeal for me. The sad part is that public golf is likely not a viable option for golf in such a high altitude and it's doubtful that many quality layouts will take on such a situation unless they are connected to a ski facility for 365-year-round cash flow.

I like the Palmer Course in Eagle -- can't think of the name off the top of my head but it's no where near the likes of Norman's effort at RSR.

RSR has plenty of design features that Norman has borrowed from his previous works and he's blessed with a site that is clearly an eye-ful from just about any location on the course. As good as I like Lakota Canyon Ranch -- Norman's RSR may be the best available public course off I-70 west of the immediate Denver area.

Since you have a great familiarity with the golf in the state be curious to know how you see things.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt,

I'm curious--what is your opinion of some of the other notable courses in the Summit/Eagle county area (Breckenridge, Keystone Ranch, Keystone River, Raven at Three Peaks, etc.) and how does Red Sky Ranch compare to them?

Tim, I don't mean to steal Matt's thunder but here goes.  Breckenridge is built on rolling land.  It is mountain golf only because it is at 8000 fett or so.

Keystone Ranch is built in a valley.  Given its location, it is relatively flat.

Keystone River is a good example of what can go wrong with mt golf.  It has beautiful views of Lake Dillon and the surrounding mts, but is so up and down that the elevation changes on some holes are too great.  Hitting, a long downhill tee shot, however, is fun.  It is just goofy golf. The same goes for the Raven.

Some others that qualify as mt courses are Maroon Creek in Aspen which has some holes both on a plain and on ground with some severe elevation changes.  Roaring Fork in Snowmass is pretty good Nicklaus designed on some relative benign rolling hills. There are few great elevation changes there.  

The CC of the Rockies is in Vail Valley is does not have a great many holes with big elevation changes.


       

[Garland Bayley]

...
The tee shot on #4 gives you an idea of the terraced nature of the land.  Most holes run parallel to the slope not up and down.


I think is #7.  It shows the green side bunkering.  


...

Probably overbunkered?  

Looks like an unimaginative mess to Sean Arble.  

EDIT: I posted this before I saw Sean's response. You can now attribute unimaginative mess to me.
 

PS Do I use smileys too much?

[Tim Pitner]

Matt and Tommy,

Thanks for your thoughts.  

Most of the golf I've played in the mountains has been in Summit County, plus Pole Creek, Haymaker, Aspen Golf and River Valley Ranch.  I haven't played much in Vail and I haven't played the Enghs out west.  

Regarding the courses I mentioned, I agree with Matt that I like the back 9 at Raven at Three Peaks quite a bit (Tommy, I don't see the Raven as goofy golf, except perhaps #9).  The par 3s and par 5s on the back are good holes, IMHO.  

I also generally agree that the Keystone courses and Breckenridge are roughly comparable.  However, I have a soft spot for the Ranch course because it's walkable and it's really peaceful in that valley, especially in the early morning.  I liked the River course better than I thought I would.  Yes, it's routed through condos on the front and then the back is just kind of wacky, but there are some fun holes.  I might rate Breckenridge behind both of the Keystone courses--just nothing too memorable there at "Nicklaus' only municipal golf course."
 

[Peter Zarlengo]

Having played a hanful of courses in the Colorado Mountains, my favorite is Grand Elk. There are some pretty good holes out there and exemplifies the valley-style mountain golf. The greens and green surrounds were wonderfully contoured and very firm, without the cranked up speeds that other courses I've played try to achieve (see: Cordillera). A personal favorite was the valley in the back-center portion of the 9th green, creating a "horseshoe" effect. The high aim of the course to create a heathland golf course still confuses me, though. But I've never played a true heathland course so...

And I've heard that the course down the road, even if its still under construction, isn't too shabby either  

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tim, I also really like the Keystone Ranch.  It is walkable.  It was great fun.  Both 9 and 18 were a ball to play.  The front 9 was really good.  I played it at sunset.  It was special.  The food at the Ranch is also top drawer.  Probably saying "goofy" golf was a bit strong.  Let's just say that there is some terrain that was not meant to house a golf course.

Garland, unlike my friend Sean, I like bunkers.  I enjoy trying hit a forty yard bunker shot.  But as much as I do like bunkers this course is indeed over bunkered.

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