[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Devereux Emmet was a prolific golf architect who was involved in a number of acclaimed designs - like Garden City. He has also lost dozens of golf courses over the years, maybe more than just about any architect of his era. Should he be better known or was there a reason why so many of his courses were redesigned or plowed over? What are some of his better preserved courses?

[Craig Rokke]

A course I've commented on before is Immergrun, an Emmet
9 holer in upstate PA. It was built at the Charles Schwab Estate (US Steel), and then lay dormant, I believe, for a number of years. It was resurrected as a daily fee during the 60's or 70's to its original specs. I don't believe it's been
altered since, so I'd have to say it's probably very close
to the way Emmet originally built it. An enjoyable place to play I might add.

Emmet seemed pretty well connected to the moneyed captains of industry.

[Justin_Zook]

Emmet designed the Green Course at Bethpage.  Perhaps now that the Open was held at the Black course the other courses will be given better maintained.  Congressional CC, and Huntington also will be found on his resume.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I've played Glen Head, Hampshire, Seawane and Schuyler Meadow, and enjoyed all of them.

I can't tell you what was or wasn't changed, but I do know that trees were planted at Seawane that altered the feel and play of a really neat, wind swept golf course.  If all of the trees were removed, I believe the course would gain some measure of recognition.  There is an interesting mix of ground and aerial golf at Seawane, and when the wind blows, it's exhilarating, and educational.  Keeping it low is required.  

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Tom,
Huntington Country Club on Long Island is a gem. Two of the par-4's, the 10th and 16th are world class, the 1st and 2nd are excellent, and there is a Road hole green on the long par-5 seventh used in an interesting way (the back left is twisted from 9 o'clock to 11 o'clock and the green so slightly away from the fairway, very cool). The club is in the midst of a several year restoration of sorts. It's been inspired by and handled by the longtime asst. super, Myles McLaughlin. He's had to incorporate elements of Emmets course, a Tull redo (or two I think) and he's injected some of his own Emmet type creations on holes where the evidence is sketchy or where they are trying to extend the Emmet look beyond places he never took it (fescue covered mounds in place of trees near the clubhouse for instance).

Emmet is definitely an important and unsung early figure. George Bahto can shed a lot more light on Emmet, I don't know if that'll be part of the forthcoming book or a sequel.
Geoff

[BCrosby]

Whether or not a lot of his courses have survived, Emmet is an important figure in the history of gca because:

  - his interesting (if somewhat incoherent) writing on gca had a big impact on his and the immediately following generation of architects. If Emmet had allowed someone to copy edit his stuff, it might rank among some of the best writing on gca.

  -  no architect before or since wore such cool outfits. And the hats, ... my god the hats... Hands down winner of the best dressed golf course architect of all time. Much better dresser than Tillie. He put MacK in the shade. In a league of his own.

Bob

[Jeff Mingay]

I made an interesting discovery a few years ago, finding out that Devereux Emmet laid-out a course near Windsor, Ontario, directly across the river from Detroit, for Beach Grove Golf & Country Club.

Beach Grove, not a very good course at all, has long been considered a Stanley Thompson design. A few years ago, the club hired a Canadian architect, Bob Kains, to "restore" Thompson features (which never really were there to begin with) to the course.

Anyway, I was talking to the superintendent about the "restoration" just before the work started. He gavve me a book with some old photos of the course in it, and some excerpts from early Board minutes that cleary state the course was laid-out by "Devereux Emmett of New York." The Toronto-based firm of Thompson, Cumming & Thompson (which was Stanley, his brother Nicol and Toronto Golf Club professional Geo. Cumming) supervised the construction.

I guess that years later, when the club became interested in who designed the Beach Grove course, someone looked through the minute books and didn't recognize the name Devereux Emmet. Who ever it was did recognize Thompson's name though, and Beach Grove was pronounced a Thompson design!

This story makes me wonder how Emmet ever got hooked up with guys in the Windsor area? He didn't lay out any other courses in Michigan, I don't think.

[TEPaul]

As to the reason so many of Dev Emmett's courses were plowed under I'm certain has almost nothing to do with him. It's just a fact of having done so many courses in and around NYC as early as he did and then having them fall victim to the population explosion that rolled right over so many of them.

[golfman (Guest)]

Devereux Emmet might be the forgotten architect in golf!!!
Some of his great pieces of work have been either redone through the years, or destoryed by Green Committes and of course some are no longer in existence!

Schuyler Meadows Club in Loudonville, New York might be his best keep secret!  Schuyler Meadows is considering a Long Range Plan to restore the original golf course.  The team of architect's Gil Hanse and Bill Kittleman (former pro at Merion Golf Club) would certain polish this gem of a golf course!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Golfman,

Is that the team that has been selected by the club ??

[Steve Curry]

Pat,

I was just there a couple of weeks ago, the place is awesome.  I think they did hire Hanse.  Other great Dev layouts that I have played are Leatherstocking in Cooperstown and Mohawk in Schenectady.  I found it interesting that he did so many elevated greens at Schuyler?


Regards,
Steve

[golfman]

Yes, The team of Gil Hanse and Bill Kitttleman spent last fall walking the golf course and looking at the original drawings and photo's.  They have provided a long range plan to Schuyler Meadows.  Some of the ideas are bigger greens, tree removal, wider fairways, and yes of course, some additional 50 more Hanse/Kittleman bunkers!

[ChipOat]

Interesting that nobody's mentioned St. George's in Stonybrook (LI), NY.

Never heard of it?  It's the club Emmett started for himself and his friends - it was to be "his" NGLA.

For a bunch of reasons, it didn't quite work out but the course survives today in its near-original form.  It's not National but it is GOOD.  A little short (like Taconic) but some really outstanding holes and all-world green complexes.

Right up there with Inwood as a true "hidden gem".

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

How would you characterize the work of Emmet -- are there commmon characteristics/features found in his courses?

[GeoffreyC]

Tom MacWood

The Dev Emmet courses I've played can always be counted on to have a couple of really long (for those days) 450 yard par 4's that even today could be called really tough.

His courses always have some quirky features as well. They tended to be a bit short usually in the 6300 yard range. All the courses I've played also have some very complex features in the greens including mounding much like the more famous Maxwell rolls.

The most preserved one I've played is Wee Burn, a course that has all the above including 2 island green par 4's.

[A Ball]

Description fits the Rye Golf Club (NY, not England) nicely.

Four first rate par 4's ranging from 430-460, relatively short overall, and quirky here and there.

It's good to see such dialog here about DE... you may all find this stunning, but very few people realize/appreciate the history of RGC, or the architectural pedigree it in turn possesses thanks to his involvement.

One thing that I don't know myself, is WHEN the man did Rye Golf... or anything about the circumstances of his having been selected, etc.

Anyone?

THanks

AB

[George Bahto]

chipoat: St. George's is about as quirky as it gets - tiny greens placed in a few unlikely places. You should take a look at it if you can but as Geoff Shack said, Huntington has been doing a great job.

My sub-contractor has been doing work there for the club - St G's, that is

[TEPaul]

Devereux Emmet--the cat in the hat--I swear to God if Dev Emmet isn't Tom Wolfe's grandfather than I'm not Tom Paul.

Out of our box of Flynn material came a really nice course design blueprint of Queens Village G.C. by Emmet. The course, the bunkering, it's placements and all kinds of things looked really cool and that's even without knowing the topography or even the always present Emmet quirk!

An Architect like Emmet was so interesting since he was so early and went on right through to the end of the Golden Age. That era from the end of the 1800s to the beginning of WW1 was so fascinating in American golf architecture and many times very hard to understand the essences of it through the prism of our own times!

But guys like Emmet were adventurous and creative--there really wasn't much good to compare the things they were doing to and consequently there wasn't anyone much to tell them they were doing it right or wrong and they really did their own things in adventurous ways--and it's fascinating to look back on--what there is left of it!

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