[Dan Kelly]

Patrick --

I am opposed to everything formulaic.

Dan

[Mark_F]

Patrick,

I don't know that small greens by themselves are the only defences against the better player.

My home course is by (one of) the same designer(s) as Sebonack, and has those features you describe, but I think there are other elements to the course which do as much.

1)Blindness.  There are only a couple of holes that are truly blind for most approach shots, but there are around 6 or 7 holes which require a particular location of the fairway to be found in order to have a sighted approach shot, and because of the wide fairways, many of these ideal locations are not necessarily easy to pick out.

Most holes also have at least a portion of the flagstick hidden from view from many spots in the fairways, which tends to unsettle most golfers these days.

2)Fairway slopes.  Many holes have slopes in which a particular shaped shot needs to be struck in order to hold the correct side, or alternatively, not end up on a severe uphill or downhill lie.

I feel the latter is also an excellent feature, because many tees are elevated, thus requiring the need to factor in the the change in height from tee to fairway as well as bounce and roll in order to find a flatter section of the fairway.

3)Quirk. It keeps better players off baance.

[SL_Solow]

I understood Pat's response to be an observation about the impact of the desire for ultra-fast greens and the ability to provide them with grasses such as A-4 on architectural trends relating to green slopes.  I would also suggest that the ability to rely on manufactured rather than surface drainage is a further impetus for this trend.  While we can certainly point to numerous courses that are contrary to this movement, I think Pat is correct for the most part.  I simply posited that if small sloping greens were being suggested as a new prototype, larger greens containing several smaller sloping sub-greens might be an alternative approach.  If small greens with significant contour are feasible, why not larger greens with similar sub-features?

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

You raise an excellent point which I had omitted -- the contour of the fairways.  

I think Sebonack takes the elements which Jack has traditionally used to make a golf course hard -- length, small greens, and lots of bunkering -- and adds the 3-D effects on the fairways and greens which I normally use in lieu of those other things.  Put it all together, and it's a very difficult test.

Jack was not as agreeable about using lack of visibility as an element of difficulty, which I do on occasion.

[Matt MacIver]

Shel Solow,

With today's high green speeds, noone's building super contoured greens, hence the challenge isn't that great from 30 to 60 feet.
============================================

I see this as partially true, more greens being built (and re-built) are being done as some formula (no more than 2.5% slope?) because players (and esp. Members) want fast greens.  I think it's a shame, course contours are my favorite part of the game.  

A new public course called Carolina Lakes has wild green contours and makes up for it with extremely slow greens, at least what I'm used to.  I love the place.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shel Solow,

With today's high green speeds, noone's building super contoured greens, hence the challenge isn't that great from 30 to 60 feet.

Pat,
Please re-read your quote...it sounds like "modern courses are without contours to me."

Andy,

You need to re-read my quote, and, this time, don't overlook the word "SUPER", it's an important qualifier.[/color]

You appear to have meant courses do not have BOTH super fast greens and super contoured greens, which I would believe. That's not what you said though.

What I said is what I meant, not what you meant.

Noone is building super contoured greens today.

I think it's an accepted fact that there's a "need for speed" and that moderate to slow green speeds are unacceptable.

Today, slopes are more subtle and contours far milder.
Inherently, they have to be if the intent is to have the greens putt at 10-13 and higher.

Do you recall the article and chart authored by Arthur Weber that was posted that indicated the slope/speed perameters ?[/color]

For a list of modern courses with contoured greens please see my last two posts where I listed about 10 that I had played in the last two years.

I'll look at them, but, don't confuse slope with contour.[/color]

[Noel Freeman]

Mark:

You raise an excellent point which I had omitted -- the contour of the fairways.  

I think Sebonack takes the elements which Jack has traditionally used to make a golf course hard -- length, small greens, and lots of bunkering -- and adds the 3-D effects on the fairways and greens which I normally use in lieu of those other things.  Put it all together, and it's a very difficult test.

Jack was not as agreeable about using lack of visibility as an element of difficulty, which I do on occasion.

One of the things I liked about Ballyneal was the blindness you could face on several holes if you did not take a tigerline from your drives---for your approach shots..   It effectively acts as good as bunkering for hazards.. I would have loved to see that at Sebonack but maybe that is why Ballyneal is so much more fun to play.. I thought using that was a terrific feature..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Ferguson,

I like "blindness".
You can't love NGLA and not like blindness.

But, it's not a popular feature in the U.S.
In some circles it's considered a design flaw.

I can't see the abundant use of blindness being readily acceptable by the golfing public or the PGA Tour.

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
I disagree that no one is building super contoured greens. Lets just leave it at that instead of going around in circles.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,
I disagree that no one is building super contoured greens. Lets just leave it at that instead of going around in circles.

It would be better if you could cite 10 courses built in the last 10 years that are distinquished by their super contoured putting greens.

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
Why should I list them again when you ignored them the first time I listed them? To be conservative I'll narrow it down to the three best from my previous list and if others can add others please do so...

Black Mesa
The Kingsley Club
Lost Dunes

[John Kirk]

I will second the Kingsley Club as a course with small, undulating greens and generally wide fairways, providing a stern test for the better player (course record is 66). I would argue that Kingsley is still very difficult for the mid-handicapper, despite the wide corridors.  You have to hit your short irons well there.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Surely you would count Friars Head as a course with some severely undulating greens?

[Noel Freeman]

I wish Yale was a prototype because now you have wide fairways and huge greens.. You can hit 14 fairways at Yale and say 14 greens in regulation and still shoot 80!  When greens are that big, the 3 putt is always in play and with some of the contouring with correct green speeds and you've got a recipe for fun and still a good test.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

Surely you would count Friars Head as a course with some severely undulating greens?

# 1, # 7 and # 9 would fit that category.

Andy asked me what modern courses I had played, not which modern courses I had played that lacked substantive contourning.

Certainly # 8 green at Hidden Creek would fall into that category, along with a few others.

Andy Troeger,

How many holes on the courses you listed have super contourned greens, and what's your definition of super contouring ?

Lastly, and the critical question is, as a percentage, what % of the courses built in the last 10 years have super contoured greens versus courses that don't have super contoured greens ?

[Andy Troeger]

Pat,
On the courses I've mentioned there are probably anywhere from 4-9 holes with super contours, and the rest would not be considered flat. I would say super contoured requires significant features whatever shape they might take (tiering, shelving, mounding, rolls, dips, drop offs, areas of slope). I would think you'd at least need two of these features (a two-tiered green with no other feature would not count), and many include more. For example, I would consider #4 and 16 at ND super contoured. Off the top of my head, no other green on that course would fit the definition. #5, 10, 11, and 15 have interesting features, but would not be super contoured.

At Black Mesa I bet half the holes would qualify, with the stretch of 14-16 being the pinnacle.

Lost Dunes just about every green has significant contours of some kind or another. Its probably the poster child of an example. #4 is the champ there.

The Kingsley Club again has no greens that spring to mind of being flat, but all have interesting features again. #9 and #13 probably are the most dramatic.

I have no clue what the percentage would be, I doubt I've even seen 1% of courses built in the last ten years. The courses we are discussing are considered the top of the heap for quality as well. My reason for challenging you on this is that you said "no one" when these three courses, plus Friars Head and also Arcadia Bluffs would make a good start of five courses by five different designers that all have significant contours.  I'd also add some of Jim Engh's work in that mix. While Pete Dye's courses may not always have "super contoured" greens, I don't think you'll find challenge lacking in putts from 30-60 feet which I think was part of your original point.

[Kalen Braley]

Patrick,

I will agree with Andy that some of Enghs works fits the "super" description.  Keep in mind these two pics have really flattened out the actual contours.

3rd at Lakota Canyon:

From the front right of this green up to the first ridge, its a good 4-5 feet.  



11th at Redlands Mesa:

Once again, this picture doesn't do justice to it and its still very contoured.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen,

I'd agree that the pictures you posted depict substantively contoured greens.

And, from what I've heard, that Jim Engh inserted them in his designs.

Andy Troeger,

If # 16 at ND is the dogleg left up the hill, I think you may be confusing slope with contour.

As to Friar's Head, # 9 is super contoured, # 's 1 and 7 well contoured.

Tiering, mounding, shelving, rolls, dips, drop offs and slopes don't necessarily connote super contouring, or substantive contouring.  You can have all of the above and NOT have pronounced contouring.

A six inch shelf or tier is not pronounced contouring.
A two foot, or more, shelf or tier is pronounced contouring.

And, SLOPE alone is never contouring.

What Pete Dye courses and greens are you referencing, and, are you talking about the work he did 30-40 years ago, or the work he's done in the last 10 years ?

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
I would agree with your comment about the two foot shelf vs the six inch shelf. My definition would have been better to have included that originally.

The pictures Kalen provided are good evidence of a couple of the courses mentioned earlier in the thread. I wish I had better photos of the some of the other courses I'm thinking of.

#16 is the hole you're thinking of, but seeing as there are at least 4 distinct areas on that green with some two foot shelves and dips I think you're going to have to take my word for that one or get back for another home game    #4 is the more wild of the two admittedly.

I did work there for two years so I'm not making it up. Wish I had a photo of it...

The Dye course I've played that has the most contoured greens is actually Mystic Hills in Culver, IN. The front nine is wild in a fashion similar to the Engh photos. I generally prefer his older work that still fits the GW Modern list. Most of his better courses that I've seen of his have contoured greens, but not super contoured in the context of this discussion...The Golf Club, Long Cove, Crooked Stick, Blackwolf Run. Harbour Town's are obviously the exception by being so small.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy,

My recollection was that # 14 at Crooked Stick had four distinct quadrants with pretty good contours seperating them.

Is Pete's "boomerang" green still there or has it been modified from the original version ?

[Andy Troeger]

Pat,
I wouldn't be the best to say on either of those. I've played Crooked Stick a couple times, but not real recently. I can't imagine they'd take out the boomerang green though (#15).

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