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Glenn Spencer

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #75 on: July 23, 2007, 01:55:40 AM »
Glenn Spencer,

Do #'s 18 at WFW, Oakmont and Shinnecock have birdie as a practical option ?

How would you compare the practical birdie option at those holes to the practical birdie option at # 18 at Carnoustie ?

Patrick,

I haven't played any of those three, but I think they have a hell of a lot more than Carnoustie. The reason is because there isn't out of bounds 25 feet from the green and a bank leading to that OB. Winged Foot and Shinnecock are not that long of holes and Oakmont can be birdied with a reasonable pin. All the pins at Carnoustie 18 are the same- pretty much unbirdieable, because of the risk.

Glenn

So Sergio's putt in the playoff didn't almost go in, or anyway, it basically had  'pretty much' no chance?
Really, did you watch the tournament?

Lloyd,

Try reading my comments before making your own stupid ones. There was no risk for Garcia in the playoff, the tournament that I was watching, anyway. 17 birdies in 452 attempts for the week. That sure is a lot. Hell, Azinger had to catch himself. He said "Harrington makes 5 and he wins." Then he threw," oh, yeah, if Garcia doesn't make birdie."  I don't know if you are following me around this board tonight or not, but this is two smart ass comments in a row. If you are looking for a third one to make, I am heading over to the Van de Velde-Romero thread.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 02:13:02 AM by Glenn Spencer »

Jim Nugent

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #76 on: July 23, 2007, 02:36:21 AM »
This does not exactly answer Pat's and Glenn's questions, but...

Average score at 18th Carnoustie this year....4.61

Average score at 18th Oakmont this year......4.602.

Practically the same.  Carnoustie gave up 17 birdies this year -- can't find the stat for Oakmont.  

ETA: Average score at 18th WFW was 4.471.  A bit easier than Carnousitie or Oakmont, but still the hardest hole to par in the 2006 U.S. Open.  
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 02:55:09 AM by Jim Nugent »

wsmorrison

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #77 on: July 23, 2007, 07:17:33 AM »
"Could you describe that method, the conservative way that takes ALL the hazards out of play ?"

Yes, I could.  I'll tell you as soon as you show me where there is water hard by the landing zone on the tee shot.  Here's a clue though:  245,175,70.  Now please tell me what you feel the touring pros would average on this hole.  Certainly less than the 18th at Carnoustie and assuredly less than the 18th at Merion.  I'm not saying scoring in itself is indicative of the points I was trying to make, but it is related.

"The forward tees have not been moved.
The middle tees have been lengthened by 11 yards by taking them back to the original back tee, and, the back tee has been lengthened by 20 yards since inception.

I believe that Merion has been lengthened far more than 20 yards, and, not that long ago."

Yes, for the Amateur, the hole was lengthened by 30 yards from the distance Ben Hogan played it from in 1950 and 50 yards farther than Jones played it in 1930 and 80 yards farther than he played it in 1916.  That is elasticity, not moving gates and roads and changing playing angles (you wouldn't want to play over the 17th green, right?).  

"There is only ONE bunker behind the 18th green and it doesn't cover the entire rear of the green, only part of it.
And, that's a shallow bunker in terms of depth, not much of a safety net, unless you're extremely lucky."

If you were standing in the SW corner of the clubhouse, it would appear to be only 1 bunker behind the green, but in fact, along the line of play, nearly half the green is surrounded by bunkers.  The back half that is.  The front is wide open.

"What's it like behind # 18 at Merion ?
Does it fall off 50 feet to virtually unplayable terrain ?"

No, it is not the same as at NGLA.  You got me there ;)

"And, how's the visual into # 18 at Merion ?
Visually intimidating or benign ?"

What is it to you, Pat?  For everyone else it is very intimidating and contains an element of visual deception not found at NGLA's 18th.  The top of the second ridge line hides the 60 yards or so between it and the front of the green, effectively foreshortening the distance perspective.  The false front and deep flanking bunkers are rather much on your mind as well.  If the player knows the green, he knows how much the back half of the green falls away  from the line of play and the effective area to hold that green is very small.

"From 150 to 10 yards the approach to # 18 at NGLA is visually and physically intimidating.  That's not the case with
# 18 at Merion."

Wishful thinking.  There are landing areas from the member's tee or perfectly struck 350-yard Tiger shots from the championship tees that get a turbo boost, or second shots out of the rough from the championship tees where you cannot see the green at all, short of the ridge line I refer to above.  You can be 150 yards from the green and not see it at all, just the flagpole beyond the green to the right.  Surely Pat, you need to visit to refresh your memory on this hole.  Rumor has it that might happen once some issues get squared away.  I hope they are and you will.

"As to Carnoustie, absent the stands for the Open, it presents different surrounds."

I agree.  There are flanking bunkers that make for an interesting opening to the 18th at Carnoustie.  Together with the falloffs on either side, there is intimidation, but when you add the OB on the left, it is enhanced for an Open.

"Is this insane defense of # 18 at Merion part of the initiation process whereby you remain on double secret probation for five years ?"

No, why do you ask?  It is objective reasoning.  Something you clearly lack when it comes to your beloved NGLA.  I am quick to acknowledge that it is one of the great courses in the world.  But it isn't the best of everything, Pat and it isn't as good a finishing hole as Merion.  You'll soon see ;)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 05:48:30 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #78 on: July 23, 2007, 11:31:39 AM »
Glenn Spencer,

Do #'s 18 at WFW, Oakmont and Shinnecock have birdie as a practical option ?

How would you compare the practical birdie option at those holes to the practical birdie option at # 18 at Carnoustie ?

Patrick,

I haven't played any of those three, but I think they have a hell of a lot more than Carnoustie. The reason is because there isn't out of bounds 25 feet from the green and a bank leading to that OB. Winged Foot and Shinnecock are not that long of holes and Oakmont can be birdied with a reasonable pin. All the pins at Carnoustie 18 are the same- pretty much unbirdieable, because of the risk.

Glenn

So Sergio's putt in the playoff didn't almost go in, or anyway, it basically had  'pretty much' no chance?
Really, did you watch the tournament?

Lloyd,

Try reading my comments before making your own stupid ones. There was no risk for Garcia in the playoff, the tournament that I was watching, anyway. 17 birdies in 452 attempts for the week. That sure is a lot. Hell, Azinger had to catch himself. He said "Harrington makes 5 and he wins." Then he threw," oh, yeah, if Garcia doesn't make birdie."  I don't know if you are following me around this board tonight or not, but this is two smart ass comments in a row. If you are looking for a third one to make, I am heading over to the Van de Velde-Romero thread.

Glenn

I read your comments. I'm sorry if I upset you. You have an opinion, which I pretty much share about what a final hole should offer. It seems to be making your position inflexible. In a perfect world I'd reverse 17 and 18. But in this world, I'm willing to enjoy the unique drama the course offers, and I think the final 3 holes are a given, therefore you make your birdies, and then you hang on. The birdies were out there.
However, the 18th hole can be birdied with a straight drive, and, these days, a mid iron. Lawrie hit drive, 4 iron. 2 really good shots is what's required. It's the options available, the hazards, and the fact that it's 72nd in the Open that does the rest. Most golfers play better with less options. I think this hole simply befuddles them.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #79 on: July 23, 2007, 05:24:28 PM »
Glenn Spencer,

Do #'s 18 at WFW, Oakmont and Shinnecock have birdie as a practical option ?

How would you compare the practical birdie option at those holes to the practical birdie option at # 18 at Carnoustie ?

Patrick,

I haven't played any of those three, but I think they have a hell of a lot more than Carnoustie. The reason is because there isn't out of bounds 25 feet from the green and a bank leading to that OB. Winged Foot and Shinnecock are not that long of holes and Oakmont can be birdied with a reasonable pin.

Glenn, Birdies are a product of GIR, not mis-hits.

WFW is a dogleg and long, with some elevations in the fairway and at the green.

Shinnecock isn't short and has difficult rough from tee to green.
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All the pins at Carnoustie 18 are the same- pretty much unbirdieable, because of the risk.

Aren't the greens at WFW and SH smaller, better bunkered and more severe in slope and contour than # 18 at Carnoustie ?
[/color]


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #80 on: July 23, 2007, 05:52:07 PM »

"Could you describe that method, the conservative way that takes ALL the hazards out of play ?"

Yes, I could.  I'll tell you as soon as you show me where there is water hard by the landing zone on the tee shot.


I never said that there was water hard by the LZ.
I said that there was a water hazard hard by the LZ.
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Here's a clue though:  245,175,70.  Now please tell me what you feel the touring pros would average on this hole.


Alot would depend on conditions, especially the WIND.
I couldn't predict their scores.

Let me use the tees I'd like, tees that return the hazards to play and the scores would go up.

Modern technology has obsolesced the bunker complexes off the tee as well as subsequent shots.

Let me grow the rough right of the fairway, remove any hazard line and the scores would soar.   In other words, let me prep the hole as Merion and other courses have preped their holes for a Major, and I'll create a lion of a hole from CBM's architecture.

I won't mention Merion narrowing their faiway to riduculous widths.  If allowed to do that at # 18 at NGLA, which is akin to architectural heresy, the difficulty of the hole would shoot through the roof.
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Certainly less than the 18th at Carnoustie and assuredly less than the 18th at Merion.  I'm not saying scoring in itself is indicative of the points I was trying to make, but it is related.


Let me make the right side of the hole OB, like at Carnoustie and at Merion, and # 18 at NGLA would be extremely difficult.

Carnoustie and Merion are gimmicked up for the Opens, NGLA remains in its natural state.   No narrowed fairways, no deep, lush rough, no OB, etc., etc..

I'll have an aerial of # 18 at Merion posted, and let others  judge the comparitive differences between the holes.

One is natural, the other, made up, like a clown  ;D

(note:  I expect your arduous defense of my remark to earn
          you a tremendous number of bonus points toward
          taking you off of double secret probation)
[/color]

"The forward tees have not been moved.
The middle tees have been lengthened by 11 yards by taking them back to the original back tee, and, the back tee has been lengthened by 20 yards since inception.

I believe that Merion has been lengthened far more than 20 yards, and, not that long ago."

Yes, for the Amateur, the hole was lengthened by 30 yards from the distance Ben Hogan played it from in 1950 and 50 yards farther than Jones played it in 1930 and 80 yards farther than he played it in 1916.  That is elasticity, not moving gates and roads and changing playing angles (you wouldn't want to play over the 17th green, right?).  

No need to.
If NGLA constructed a tee 50 yards behind the current tee it would not change the playing angle nor would it require playing over the 17th green.  I take it that you've learned to use hyperbole from TEPaul.
[/color]

"There is only ONE bunker behind the 18th green and it doesn't cover the entire rear of the green, only part of it.
And, that's a shallow bunker in terms of depth, not much of a safety net, unless you're extremely lucky."

If you were standing in the SW corner of the clubhouse, it would appear to be only 1 bunker behind the green, but in fact, along the line of play, nearly half the green is surrounded by bunkers.  The back half that is.  The front is wide open.

Golfers, when they play # 18, don't play if from the SW corner of the clubhouse, they usually play it from the fairway and adjacent rough, and from those angles, there's but one bunker, and it does NOT cover the entire rear of the green.

The front may look wide open to the untrained eye, but, it's not, the shot that shies away from the disaster that lies on the right will be fed further left, down into a devious bowl.
[/color]

"What's it like behind # 18 at Merion ?
Does it fall off 50 feet to virtually unplayable terrain ?"

No, it is not the same as at NGLA.  You got me there ;)

"And, how's the visual into # 18 at Merion ?
Visually intimidating or benign ?"

What is it to you, Pat?  For everyone else it is very intimidating and contains an element of visual deception not found at NGLA's 18th.  The top of the second ridge line hides the 60 yards or so between it and the front of the green, effectively foreshortening the distance perspective.  The false front and deep flanking bunkers are rather much on your mind as well.  If the player knows the green, he knows how much the back half of the green falls away  from the line of play and the effective area to hold that green is very small.


# 18 at Merion presents a straightaway approach shot, with no unusually intimidating features short, long, left or right.
# 18 at NGLA presents a frightening approach.
It's a skyline green, with no framing, with disaster looming right, rear and left.
[/color]

"From 150 to 10 yards the approach to # 18 at NGLA is visually and physically intimidating.  That's not the case with
# 18 at Merion."

Wishful thinking.  There are landing areas from the member's tee or perfectly struck 350-yard Tiger shots from the championship tees that get a turbo boost, or second shots out of the rough from the championship tees where you cannot see the green at all, short of the ridge line I refer to above.  You can be 150 yards from the green and not see it at all, just the flagpole beyond the green to the left.  Surely Pat, you need to visit to refresh your memory on this hole.  Rumor has it that might happen once some issues get squared away.  I hope they are and you will.

From 150 from the green at NGLA you can't see the green.
Just a flagstick and the sky
Yet, your mind knows what disasters lurk nearby.
[/color]

"As to Carnoustie, absent the stands for the Open, it presents different surrounds."

I agree.  There are flanking bunkers that make for an interesting opening to the 18th at Carnoustie.  Together with the falloffs on either side, there is intimidation, but when you add the OB on the left, it is enhanced for an Open.

Open preparation may have introduced the OB and the stands.
I don't think you can view those holes in two contexts, one natural and one Open prepped.

If you added the same elements at NGLA, it would be ferocious as well.
[/color]

"Is this insane defense of # 18 at Merion part of the initiation process whereby you remain on double secret probation for five years ?"

No, why do you ask?  It is objective reasoning.  Something you clearly lack when it comes to your beloved NGLA.  I am quick to acknowledge that it is one of the great courses in the world.  But it isn't the best of everything, Pat and it isn't as good a finishing hole as Merion.  You'll soon see ;)

WINK, WINK, NOD, NOD.

Keep up the charade, the admissions committee is starting to think they did the right thing if letting you in. ;D

It looks as though mid August would be the earliest I could visit.  I'm told that that's a great time since TEPaul is in lock-down at that time of month.
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wsmorrison

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #81 on: July 23, 2007, 06:12:54 PM »
A few points before I yell "Uncle."

I am not now nor have I ever been on double secret probation.  But then again, it is secret, so I could be wrong...

I'm sorry I confused water for water hazard in the tee landing area.

There is no OB on the right side of Merion's 18th.  It would be helpful if you did post a photo of the hole and took a good look at it.

Please don't compare the current Merion 18th with your fantasy NGLA 18th.  That does not seem to be a proper analysis.  I completely agree with you that modern technology and the modern golfer obsolete many of the bunkers at NGLA and other Macdonald courses for that matter.  Why is that, Pat?

The bunkers (there are three you know) surrounding half of the green on the 18th at NGLA do offer a great deal of protection from going over whether you think only one exists or not.

I think widening the fairways at Merion on some of the holes would be an excellent idea and could make the course play even harder on a few.  Most of the holes work quite well with the fairway widths they have today.

Now I give up, Pat.  Not at all because I think you are right, I just see the folly in trying to reason with you.  You love NGLA and I respect you for it.  But sometimes love is, well not blind, but shall we say a bit out of focus?  
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 06:13:17 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2007, 07:10:30 PM »

A few points before I yell "Uncle."

I am not now nor have I ever been on double secret probation.  But then again, it is secret, so I could be wrong...

I believe that they created another category just for you, "triple secret, double probation" due to your known affiliation with TEPaul.
[/color]

I'm sorry I confused water for water hazard in the tee landing area.

There is no OB on the right side of Merion's 18th.  It would be helpful if you did post a photo of the hole and took a good look at it.

I'm aware of that.
The OB at Merion on # 18 is on the left.
[/color]

Please don't compare the current Merion 18th with your fantasy NGLA 18th.  That does not seem to be a proper analysis.  

You're right, # 18 at NGLA is "steroid free" ;D
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I completely agree with you that modern technology and the modern golfer obsolete many of the bunkers at NGLA and other Macdonald courses for that matter.  Why is that, Pat?


It's not just at NGLA and CBM courses, it's at almost every golf course.

Some courses have had the luxury of having additional land, others are land locked.   Just look at holes like # 10 at Merion, there's just no room to go back further.

NGLA has lengthened # 1, # 2, # 3, # 4, # 6, # 8, # 10,
# 12, # 13, # 14, # 15, # 16, # 17 and # 18, so olde CBM understood and employed elasticity, but, there's only so much elasticity available.  The property lines dictate the limits of elasticity, and few clubs have the funds and opportunity to buy additonal land, as ANGC did behind # 12
[/color]
 
The bunkers (there are three you know) surrounding half of the green on the 18th at NGLA do offer a great deal of protection from going over whether you think only one exists or not.

I don't consider flanking bunkers to be rear bunkers.
Perhaps your definitions have changed due to your association with that idiot savant neighbor of yours.
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I think widening the fairways at Merion on some of the holes would be an excellent idea and could make the course play even harder on a few.  

Agreed, although other holes have not been returned to their pre-Open widths, like # 5.   Others remain too narrow.
[/color]

Most of the holes work quite well with the fairway widths they have today.

I don't agree with that.  A view of google earth would seem to confirm my view, but, it's amazing how quickly you've blended into the membership ranks.
[/color]

Now I give up, Pat.  Not at all because I think you are right, I just see the folly in trying to reason with you.  You love NGLA and I respect you for it.  But sometimes love is, well not blind, but shall we say a bit out of focus?  

I wish we could have had this discussion prior to your appllication to Merion ;D

As someone once said, certain things are self evident, and I think the architecture at NGLA fits that bill.

Most of those who have witnessed the terrain, wind and features at NGLA appreciate the genius of the architecture and the challenge and joy associated with playing the golf course.

I do love NGLA.  I love the architecture.  I love the terrain, the wind, the features and the experience of playing the golf course.  And, I could play it, 36 holes a day, 365 days a year and never tire of it.

But, I have NO vested interest or agenda with respect to assessing the golf course.  

I stand clearly at arms length when making my comments.
[/color]


wsmorrison

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #83 on: July 23, 2007, 07:52:33 PM »
"Perhaps your definitions have changed due to your association with that idiot savant neighbor of yours."

I wish he was my neighbor, Pat.  That would make my wife very happy indeed.  You've seen that neighborhood; it is pretty amazing!  Tom would benefit as well because he would be drinking much better red wine on a regular basis...at least until the cellar runs out  ;)

Jay Flemma

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2007, 08:04:49 PM »
For my part, I'm of two minds about it.

I cannot deny the incredible, dramatic, cathartic, tension-filled, downright historic moments.

That being said, it doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the course except 17 and it's too penal and target-style golf for my taste.  The rest of the holes seem excellent examples of true links golf, but then we have this chaotic, haphazard, "need a little luck too" hole at the end - the last hurdle, the last memory of the course.

Does anyone feel it's overkill for the green to be guarded by OB AND sand AND the burn?  Do you feel that it's too dictatorial AND too exacting at the same time?

My conclusion though is "is it what it is."  There is no other 18 at Carnoustie.  It's the beating heart of the course and - like 17 at Sawgrass - always gnaws at the players' minds.  No lead is safe.  Its once every ten years or so.  It has a character that is larger than life.  Any number is possible.  I can look the other way, but I would scream bloody murder if someone designed it for a finishing hole at my club.

Moreover, while I hate when they artificially lower par on a hole for a tournament, I feel the hole works better as a par-4, not a par-5.  More drama at 18, more pucker factor, greater potential for glory.

Did anyone notice?  The last three opens at Carnoustie ended in playoffs!  Can any other course claim three consecutive playoffs?

Also, the last two Euro major winners did it at Carnoustie!

Glenn Spencer

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2007, 10:40:36 PM »
Glenn Spencer,

Do #'s 18 at WFW, Oakmont and Shinnecock have birdie as a practical option ?

How would you compare the practical birdie option at those holes to the practical birdie option at # 18 at Carnoustie ?

Patrick,

I haven't played any of those three, but I think they have a hell of a lot more than Carnoustie. The reason is because there isn't out of bounds 25 feet from the green and a bank leading to that OB. Winged Foot and Shinnecock are not that long of holes and Oakmont can be birdied with a reasonable pin.

Glenn, Birdies are a product of GIR, not mis-hits.

WFW is a dogleg and long, with some elevations in the fairway and at the green.

Shinnecock isn't short and has difficult rough from tee to green.
[/color]

All the pins at Carnoustie 18 are the same- pretty much unbirdieable, because of the risk.

Aren't the greens at WFW and SH smaller, better bunkered and more severe in slope and contour than # 18 at Carnoustie ?
[/color]


Patrick,

We are talking par 4's here. For all intents and purposes on holes like this, birdie is not coming from the rough. The rough at Shinnecock would be meaningless then, right? Of course GIR's are necessary to make birdies. Yes, I would assume the greens at WF and SH are smaller and more severe. No doubt. My contention is that at WF and SH and Oakmont, OB is not a problem on the second shot. A somewhat free swing is able to made and therefore, even though they are tough holes, birdies are made by good players in tough situations. Carnoustie's tee shot is just as tough as the others and then the second is not able to be approached witha free swing, unless you are either on your game to the hilt or out of contention. I have no facts for this, but, I would bet out of the 17 birdies that were made, 11 or more were made by players that didn't "need" a birdie.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 10:49:30 PM by Glenn Spencer »

Glenn Spencer

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2007, 10:48:02 PM »
Glenn Spencer,

Do #'s 18 at WFW, Oakmont and Shinnecock have birdie as a practical option ?

How would you compare the practical birdie option at those holes to the practical birdie option at # 18 at Carnoustie ?

Patrick,

I haven't played any of those three, but I think they have a hell of a lot more than Carnoustie. The reason is because there isn't out of bounds 25 feet from the green and a bank leading to that OB. Winged Foot and Shinnecock are not that long of holes and Oakmont can be birdied with a reasonable pin. All the pins at Carnoustie 18 are the same- pretty much unbirdieable, because of the risk.

Glenn

So Sergio's putt in the playoff didn't almost go in, or anyway, it basically had  'pretty much' no chance?
Really, did you watch the tournament?

Lloyd,

Try reading my comments before making your own stupid ones. There was no risk for Garcia in the playoff, the tournament that I was watching, anyway. 17 birdies in 452 attempts for the week. That sure is a lot. Hell, Azinger had to catch himself. He said "Harrington makes 5 and he wins." Then he threw," oh, yeah, if Garcia doesn't make birdie."  I don't know if you are following me around this board tonight or not, but this is two smart ass comments in a row. If you are looking for a third one to make, I am heading over to the Van de Velde-Romero thread.

Glenn

I read your comments. I'm sorry if I upset you. You have an opinion, which I pretty much share about what a final hole should offer. It seems to be making your position inflexible. In a perfect world I'd reverse 17 and 18. But in this world, I'm willing to enjoy the unique drama the course offers, and I think the final 3 holes are a given, therefore you make your birdies, and then you hang on. The birdies were out there.
However, the 18th hole can be birdied with a straight drive, and, these days, a mid iron. Lawrie hit drive, 4 iron. 2 really good shots is what's required. It's the options available, the hazards, and the fact that it's 72nd in the Open that does the rest. Most golfers play better with less options. I think this hole simply befuddles them.

Lloyd,

I still don't know what I said to warrant your reaction, but thank you for the  acknowledgement that you upset me. Lawrie hit a great shot. No question, but do you think he hit where he was looking? 1 shot lead right? He might have, he might have pushed it, either way it was a lot gutsier than most.

How is my postion unflexible? Is the hole or is not, pretty much unbirdieable by the best players in the world in The Open? 17 out of 452???? I only played the hole once, but birdie stats don't lie.

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #87 on: July 23, 2007, 11:20:51 PM »
I think I heard Rich Lerner on one of the sports talk shows today saying that the 18th at Carnoustie is one of the best finishing holes in all of golf.

Was Rich quoting Jordan Wall?  ;D
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #88 on: July 24, 2007, 02:56:01 AM »
Posted on behalf of Patrick Mucci


Brent Hutto

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #89 on: July 24, 2007, 08:41:36 AM »
To state more succinctly a point I tried to make in some thread or another...

Whether a hole is labelled "Par 4" or "Par 5" is immaterial. However, for the closing hole of a tournament it matters a great deal whether it is playing to an average of 4.7 strokes versus 4.1 strokes.

In the latter case knowing that a 3 is not at all unlikely for your opponent makes it prudent for the player with the lead to take on a certain amount of risk in order to secure a 4 if at all possible.

But if the field is averaging closer to 5 than to 4 it makes playing for a 5 with a two-shot lead a no-brainer and even makes for a valid strategy with a one-shot lead.

So in my opinion, an idea finishing hole should average something like 4.6-4.8 strokes, no matter what par figure is given on the card.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 08:43:28 AM by Brent Hutto »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #90 on: July 24, 2007, 02:15:24 PM »
Wayne, et. al.,

Here are the two holes side by side.

Which seems to offer greater variety in terms of play and trouble ? ;D

# 18 at NGLA starts low and ascends to a high bluff with a STEEP dropoff and experiences plenty of WIND


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« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 02:18:30 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Kalen Braley

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Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #91 on: July 24, 2007, 02:18:58 PM »
Having played neither....just from the aerials 18 at NGLA looks like there is more trouble to be found...

Of course as a chronic slicer/fader, the trouble right on NGLA looks alot worse than the trouble right on Merion.

wsmorrison

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #92 on: July 24, 2007, 02:37:31 PM »
Pat,

I am surprised that you think the playing characteristics are self-evident from these photographs.  Also, it would have been nice if more than just the forward tee was shown in the Merion photograph as the back tee is a full 76 yards behind the back of the tee shown in the photo.  The rolling nature of Merion's fairway and the decided false front to the green cannot be made evident in a photo such as posted.  By the way, a yardage scale would show that many of the bunkers are no longer in play for better players.

Pat, here is a 1938 aerial of the 18th.  Please note the greenside bunkering.  As you can see in the 1938 photo, the green was extended out much further than it is shown in the Google photograph.  I know the green was expanded recently, do you think that was done after the Google photo was taken?  I suspect it was.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 02:52:02 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Phil McDade

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Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #93 on: July 24, 2007, 02:47:28 PM »
Wayne:

Is the back-back tee at Merion's 18th way back in the woods, on what might be the right side of that road (leading into the equipment sheds), or is on the left of the road, forcing a tee shot over the heads of those on 17? I couldn't quite tell where that tee was during the televised portions of the US Am there.

wsmorrison

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #94 on: July 24, 2007, 02:55:39 PM »
Phil,

Here is the entire hole showing a 290 yard drive and a 215 yard approach.  You can see evidence of tees that are oriented away from the intended line of play.  There are a number of them on the East (3 is an excellent example) and West courses (7 is an excellent example).  

« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 02:57:02 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Phil McDade

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Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #95 on: July 24, 2007, 03:13:22 PM »
Wayne:

Thanks -- that is one long carry. Is is safe to assume the tee shot on 18 from the way-back tees is also somewhat uphill (blindish?), given that the landing area is near 17 tee, and 18 tee is near 17 green, and 17 plays somewhat downhill?

Fascinating, having never seen an aerial of the quarry portion of the course, how Wilson fashioned significant strategic portions of three holes out of essentially nothing.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #96 on: July 24, 2007, 03:34:18 PM »


I am surprised that you think the playing characteristics are self-evident from these photographs.  Also, it would have been nice if more than just the forward tee was shown in the Merion photograph as the back tee is a full 76 yards behind the back of the tee shown in the photo.  The rolling nature of Merion's fairway and the decided false front to the green cannot be made evident in a photo such as posted.  

I agree, aerials are two dimensional and limit the observer's efforts to drink in everything about the hole, but, the are what they are and do show the juxtaposition of the features.
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By the way, a yardage scale would show that many of the bunkers are no longer in play for better players.

Yes, and NO.

While some features are no longer in play for the better players, other features, formerly not in play, are now in play.
There is no doubt that adding length to the 18th tee, while preserving the angles of attack would benefit the hole in the context of the play of the better golfer.
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Pat, here is a 1938 aerial of the 18th.  Please note the greenside bunkering.  As you can see in the 1938 photo, the green was extended out much further than it is shown in the Google photograph.  I know the green was expanded recently, do you think that was done after the Google photo was taken?  I suspect it was.

Yes, I believe it was.
That's a great photo.  Where did you get it and does that aerial show the rest of the golf course ?  If so, could you send it or whatever you have to me.
You should also send it to Bill Salinetti.

When you look at Shinnecock and NGLA and see the vast amount of bunkering NLE, it's a shame.  I'd like to see more of the bunkering at both courses restored.
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wsmorrison

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #97 on: July 24, 2007, 08:42:03 PM »
Pat,

Check your email.  I'll call Bill in the morning and make sure a copy of the entire golf course is made available to him in high def.  Great idea!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #98 on: July 24, 2007, 09:57:19 PM »
Wayne,

Thanks.

It's a stunning aerial.

One that could be the platform/model for future restoration work.

I'd be interested in knowing why so many of the bunkered areas were lost over the years.  Was it intentional or accidental ?  Did WWII play a role ?

wsmorrison

Re:Carnoustie 18 -- Best finishing hole in Championship golf?
« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2007, 10:52:53 PM »
Pat,  

Care needs to be taken as some of the areas in white are a reflection from the sun and do not show the exact extent of the sand areas.  Craig Disher may be of some help to determine what is actual sand dimensions and what may be a reflection or other anomaly on the photograph (such as the upper right hand corner and below the pond).
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 10:53:24 PM by Wayne Morrison »

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