[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle,

Not to guys who are carrying it 280 in 52 degree, damp weather.

AND,

Not to guys who carry their irons that long

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Not to guys who are carrying it 280 in 52 degree, damp weather.

AND,

Not to guys who carry their irons that long

By that logic, the burn on 17 and 18 at Carnoustie has no significance. Come on here, Pat, I'm with you on a lot of things - but to say the 18th at Merion has no fear factor is a stretch.

[Rich Goodale]

Merion 18 is a doddle.  I carried from the new back tee with a slightly heeled shot and Cirba bombed it over with ease.  We're not that good....

[igrowgrass]

The finishing hole at Carnoustie is without a doubt a good hole.  Is the hole more mental than anything else because people know what happened in '99?  Sure they are the best players in the world and control their emotions better than your average guy, but everyone that plays golf(except Boo Weekley) knows what happened on that hole.  Does that thought play into their heads and make it just a little bit tougher?

[wsmorrison]

Rich,

One time results of a tee shot are not indicative of anything.  I've seen Cirba drive the ball many times  What were your scores after holing out?

Pat,

Exactly what water hazards are close to the fairway and green at NGLA?  The cliff, which is 30 yards or so to the right of the fairway near the green?  With nearly everyone hitting a short approach, there isn't much to consider.  Your loyalty is admirable but blind    You can have intense strategy and fear without water.  You may not experience it as much as some of us, but surely you have heard of OB.  A shot hit way right does suffers little in the way of consequence?  What about thick and deep rough with a very long approach shot over a very large and deep bunker to a green with a dramatic false front and little green facing you back to front?  You must have a Byron Nelson-like long iron game with the strength of Tiger Woods.   A shot hit left doesn't leave the player with a difficult shot?  What are you kidding?  That certainly doesn't apply to the tee shot with woods and OB threatening.  And it doesn't apply to the approach shot given the scale and depth of the bunkers.

You are right in one way.  Merion's 18th ain't #18 at NGLA.  It is much more difficult and easily as interesting, I think more so and with one less stroke against par.

[Rich Goodale]

Wayne

We both had 2-putt 4's.  Ho hum.......

[wsmorrison]

What year was this?

[Rich Goodale]

The year that the back tees were unofficially opened up to visiting celebrities like me and Mike.  If we had gone back any futher we would have been in somebody's back garden....

[Kyle Harris]

The year that the back tees were unofficially opened up to visiting celebrities like me and Mike.  If we had gone back any futher we would have been in somebody's back garden....

Or a driving range... you sure this is the East Course?  

Just picking on you guys... Cirba told me the story awhile ago.

[George Pazin]

Sure is fun to watch - probably not fun if you have to make 4!

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

I think they were on the West Course; hung over from too much cheap red wine at the Paul farm the night before.

I think Rich's story requires some corroboration from Mike "long ball" Cirba!

[Mark Bourgeois]

How much did OB on 18 actually come into play?  Seems like much ado about nothing -- the burns, them's the killers! You just can't avoid challenging them somewhere in the play, at least not to bring in 5 or less, can you?

[Kyle Harris]

How much did OB on 18 actually come into play?  Seems like much ado about nothing -- the burns, them's the killers! You just can't avoid challenging them somewhere in the play, at least not to bring in 5 or less, can you?

Mark,

During the 2nd round, Vijay overcooked his approach to 18 green left and it bounded OB. That's what prompted me to suggest that the left side be opened up off the tee to the burn to give the player the option of challenging the burn to play away from the OB on the approach.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Also, it's nice that it is practically intertwined with the 17th fairway... makes for some good stolen glances at competitors at the end of the final round as they pass each other :-)

This quote was priescent.  But from the way they avoided each others eyes who could have predicted the outcome? Pure Drama.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle,

Not to guys who are carrying it 280 in 52 degree, damp weather.

AND,

Not to guys who carry their irons that long

By that logic, the burn on 17 and 18 at Carnoustie has no significance. Come on here, Pat, I'm with you on a lot of things - but to say the 18th at Merion has no fear factor is a stretch.

Kyle,

I didn't say it didn't have a fear factor, I said it didn't have a "substantive" fear factor, especially when compared to the fear factor at # 18 at NGLA

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

Not to guys who are carrying it 280 in 52 degree, damp weather.

AND,

Not to guys who carry their irons that long

By that logic, the burn on 17 and 18 at Carnoustie has no significance. Come on here, Pat, I'm with you on a lot of things - but to say the 18th at Merion has no fear factor is a stretch.

Kyle,

I didn't say it didn't have a fear factor, I said it didn't have a "substantive" fear factor, especially when compared to the fear factor at # 18 at NGLA

If we are saying something is not substantive, therefore, lacking substance... then what IS it?  

Having only drooled at the 18th at NGLA from the gate... is Driver a necessary play off the tee?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Exactly what water hazards are close to the fairway and green at NGLA?  

To start with, the one immediately to the right of the fairway in the DZ.[/color]

The cliff, which is 30 yards or so to the right of the fairway near the green?  

The cliff is immediately adjacent to the fronting fairway and to the right and rear of the green.  There is NO 30 yard buffer as you suggest.[/color]

With nearly everyone hitting a short approach, there isn't much to consider.  

Having hit approaches from 250 to 10 yards, there's plenty to consider, especiallly since it's blind, uphill and usually fighting a good wind.

Any error pays a steep price, which isn't the case at Merion.[/color]

Your loyalty is admirable but blind    You can have intense strategy and fear without water.  

Perhaps so, but, it's exponentially accelerated at # 18 at NGLA with the combination of factors.[/color]

You may not experience it as much as some of us, but surely you have heard of OB.  

The clubhouse at # 18 at NGLA is much closer than the OB at Merion.[/color]

A shot hit way right does suffers little in the way of consequence?  

Shots hit way right and way left suffer dire consequences at NGLA.[/color]

What about thick and deep rough with a very long approach shot over a very large and deep bunker to a green with a dramatic false front and little green facing you back to front?


If you were in thick, deep rough, you wouldn't attempt the long approach over the fronting bunker.

How about the fate of a drive in the left side bunkers in the DZ at # 18 at NGLA ?[/color]

You must have a Byron Nelson-like long iron game with the strength of Tiger Woods.   A shot hit left doesn't leave the player with a difficult shot?  

Not to the degree that it does at NGLA where the golfer is hitting directly toward the plateaued green, the cliffs and disaster, and, a shot hit just short, or even on the green with spin, will roll back down to the left side of the green, leaving an extremely dicey shot back towards a skyline green where it looks like the planet earth ends a yard beyond it.[/color]

What are you kidding?  

No[/color]

That certainly doesn't apply to the tee shot with woods and OB threatening.  And it doesn't apply to the approach shot given the scale and depth of the bunkers.

The bunkers are a safety net compared to what lies beyond and to the right of the 18th green at NGLA.[/color]

You are right in one way.  Merion's 18th ain't #18 at NGLA.  

It is much more difficult and easily as interesting, I think more so and with one less stroke against par.

# 18 at Merion has been lengthened substantially to cater to hosting a tournament.

# 18 at NGLA remains virtually untouched.

Play the two holes from the "MEMBERS" tees and let me know how they compare.

The tee shot becomes fairly benign as does the balance of the hole, by today's standards.

If NGLA was lengthened to accomodate an OPEN I'm sure some yardage would be added as well, making the hole far more difficult.

# 18 at Merion is a great hole, but, # 18 at NGLA is world class.[/color]

[Paul_Turner]

The 18th at NGLA isn't close to Carnoustie's 18th in its potential for drama.

[wsmorrison]

Paul,

Pat Mucci has had a lifelong love affair with NGLA and nary a discouraging word can have any merit in his closed mind.  A world-class finishing hole?  It is excellent, but does not attain the status Pat confers on it.  It is a short par 5 where driver isn't called for.  There is a very conservative way to play the hole which takes all the hazards out of play and makes 4 a slight possibility but makes a 5 highly likely with no worse than 6 possible.  Going for it in 2, well that brings other scores into play as with Merion at the same length but with hazards that are more in play, more topographic movement and a far more demanding green complex.  

Pat mentions that Merion has been stretched over time.  So was NGLA, just not nearly as recently.  Too bad Macdonald didn't foresee the distance impact and buy more land or route with more elasticity in mind.  Elasticity would help greatly as at other of his courses.  But there isn't any on the final hole.  I'd play it as a par 4 so no lengthening is required and the psychological impact would be an improvement.

By the way, speaking of safety net, what do you think the bunkers behind the 18th green at NGLA are for?  Increased intensity or an aid to going long?  That green is so wide open in the front that there is not much of a "fear factor" going on at that end.  Merion and Carnoustie have a much more scary green surround than NGLA.

[redanman]

18 Carnoustie (as a par 4) made its case again today. Wow!

[Patrick_Mucci]

The 18th at NGLA isn't close to Carnoustie's 18th in its potential for drama.

Paul Turner,

Would you cite where I said it was ?

Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul,

Pat Mucci has had a lifelong love affair with NGLA and nary a discouraging word can have any merit in his closed mind.  A world-class finishing hole?  It is excellent, but does not attain the status Pat confers on it.  It is a short par 5 where driver isn't called for.  There is a very conservative way to play the hole which takes all the hazards out of play and makes 4 a slight possibility but makes a 5 highly likely with no worse than 6 possible.  

Could you describe that method, the conservative way that takes ALL the hazards out of play ?

To help you I've included the aerial  


[/color]

Going for it in 2, well that brings other scores into play as with Merion at the same length but with hazards that are more in play, more topographic movement and a far more demanding green complex.  

Perhaps revisiting the aerial will bring you to your senses.[/color]

Pat mentions that Merion has been stretched over time.  So was NGLA, just not nearly as recently.

The forward tees have not been moved.
The middle tees have been lengthened by 11 yards by taking them back to the original back tee, and, the back tee has been lengthened by 20 yards since inception.

I believe that Merion has been lengthened far more than 20 yards, and, not that long ago.[/color]

Too bad Macdonald didn't foresee the distance impact and buy more land or route with more elasticity in mind.  Elasticity would help greatly as at other of his courses.  But there isn't any on the final hole.  

That's untrue, totally inaccurate.
There's a good 52 yards that the 18th hole could be lengthened by, and that's BEFORE you get to the gates that TEPaul doesn't want moved.  There's additional land further east of the gates that could have/could be used.

I've championed moving the back tee back at least 52 yards which would make a world of difference, and, if the gates were moved north by 50 feet, another 30 or more yards could be obtained.[/color]

I'd play it as a par 4 so no lengthening is required and the psychological impact would be an improvement.

The problem with that is that the diabolical left side fairway complex is often taken out of play.

This was an architectural feature meant to influence the drive and interface with the golfer, therefore, lengthening the back tee would be more in keeping with CBM's design integrity.[/color]

By the way, speaking of safety net, what do you think the bunkers behind the 18th green at NGLA are for?  

There is only ONE bunker behind the 18th green and it doesn't cover the entire rear of the green, only part of it.
And, that's a shallow bunker in terms of depth, not much of a safety net, unless you're extremely lucky.

What's it like behind # 18 at Merion ?
Does it fall off 50 feet to virtually unplayable terrain ?
And, how's the visual into # 18 at Merion ?
Visually intimidating or benign ?[/color]

Increased intensity or an aid to going long?  

It's invisible to the golfer's eye, and not much of a psychological, visual or physical crutch[/color]

That green is so wide open in the front that there is not much of a "fear factor" going on at that end.  

Perhaps to the untrained eye.
The left side of the fairway/green slope down into a difficult bowl.

Noone ventures to the right side of the green.

From 150 to 10 yards the approach to # 18 at NGLA is visually and physically intimidating.  That's not the case with
# 18 at Merion.[/color]

Merion and Carnoustie have a much more scary green surround than NGLA.

Surely, you jest.
It's not even close.

As to Carnoustie, absent the stands for the Open, it presents different surrounds.

Is this insane defense of # 18 at Merion part of the initiation process whereby you remain on double secret probation for five years ?  [/color]

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn Spencer,

Do #'s 18 at WFW, Oakmont and Shinnecock have birdie as a practical option ?

How would you compare the practical birdie option at those holes to the practical birdie option at # 18 at Carnoustie ?

Patrick,

I haven't played any of those three, but I think they have a hell of a lot more than Carnoustie. The reason is because there isn't out of bounds 25 feet from the green and a bank leading to that OB. Winged Foot and Shinnecock are not that long of holes and Oakmont can be birdied with a reasonable pin. All the pins at Carnoustie 18 are the same- pretty much unbirdieable, because of the risk.

[Lloyd_Cole]

Glenn Spencer,

Do #'s 18 at WFW, Oakmont and Shinnecock have birdie as a practical option ?

How would you compare the practical birdie option at those holes to the practical birdie option at # 18 at Carnoustie ?

Patrick,

I haven't played any of those three, but I think they have a hell of a lot more than Carnoustie. The reason is because there isn't out of bounds 25 feet from the green and a bank leading to that OB. Winged Foot and Shinnecock are not that long of holes and Oakmont can be birdied with a reasonable pin. All the pins at Carnoustie 18 are the same- pretty much unbirdieable, because of the risk.

Glenn

So Sergio's putt in the playoff didn't almost go in, or anyway, it basically had  'pretty much' no chance?
Really, did you watch the tournament?

[Garland Bayley]

Glenn Spencer,

Do #'s 18 at WFW, Oakmont and Shinnecock have birdie as a practical option ?

How would you compare the practical birdie option at those holes to the practical birdie option at # 18 at Carnoustie ?

Patrick,

I haven't played any of those three, but I think they have a hell of a lot more than Carnoustie. The reason is because there isn't out of bounds 25 feet from the green and a bank leading to that OB. Winged Foot and Shinnecock are not that long of holes and Oakmont can be birdied with a reasonable pin. All the pins at Carnoustie 18 are the same- pretty much unbirdieable, because of the risk.

Glenn

So Sergio's putt in the playoff didn't almost go in, or anyway, it basically had  'pretty much' no chance?
Really, did you watch the tournament?

Sergio wouldn't have had that putt without the immensely lucky lie he got after his poor drive.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()