[fpd]

All:

Metro NY area club starting to look in to redoing all 73+ bunkers on a 1926 Raynor/Banks design. Looking for recomendations I can forward to our commitee that was formed to solicit bids. Not a lot of farsighted folks on the board/greens commitee. Thoughts???

Also wondering what the going cost is these days per bunker...while I know that's not how one should look at projects like these, just curious. Have heard in the grapevine that at fairfield cnty club spent around 14K per bunker for there redo. Does this typically include the bunker surrounds?? Please excuse my ignorance. Would appreciate some help and perhaps recommendations from the very knowledgable folks on this board.

Thanks in advance,
FPD

[Mark Bourgeois]

You might start by contacting George Bahto and go from there.

[Mike Sweeney]

Take a look at Kelly Moran's work at Rock Spring:

http://www.kellyblakemoran.com/rock%20spring%20blog.html

Take a look at Gil Hanse and George Bahto's work at Sleepy Hollow which is now Macdonald style from a base of MacD, Tilly and Rees.

Take a look at Silva's work at Mountain Lake, Fox Chapel and CC of Charleston.

Doak did The Creek, Piping Rock (I think) and Yeaman's Hall.

Lots of opinions in the archives.

Oh yea, Rulewich did the work at Yale and let's just say it is great to have a great Super at Yale now.

[Tom_Doak]

fpd:

The cost per bunker depends on the size of the bunkers.  If the bunkers are very large, as are many of Raynor's, and you choose a high-cost bunker sand, then a cost of $14,000 per bunker might be warranted.  For most clubs in most places it should be significantly less than that.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Do they drain?

Often a new bunker program includes internal drainage, fabric if needed - with grassed faces usually not, and regrassing the surrounds.  Minimizing the area disturbed keeps costs lower.

Why does the club want the work done?

Does the club want an architect or only a contractor?

Cheers

[corey miller]

FPD

I am a member at Sleepy Hollow and involved in the project.  One that when complete, I believe will be very well received in the GCA-golf archie snob community  In my opinion, at this point the most important thing the board and commitee can do is actually figure out what the objective of the project is.  The "Pat Mucci Mission Statement" .  

I would not speak to anybody or let anybody on to the property that has not been pre-screened by the commitee.  Of course, part of the problem is that most commitee's have no clue how to go through this process. They usually hire the guy who did the crap work down the street upon the recommendation of a greens chairman who is either too embarrassed or too clueless to understand the shoddy work.  Nobody likes to admit >$1 dollar mistakes.

There are a few clubs in the area that did full and complete restorations on their clubs and were so "happy" they hired other architects to do additional work very soon after.

If you do the initial due diligence properly, the chance the project will succeed rises exponentially.  In fact, your choice wil be the most important factor in a successful project. I would not invite anyone to the property that you are not prepared to hire.  

You and the architect may not share the same "vision" but you will be better prepared if you determine your "vision" without outside interference and then  bring in a few of the well respected names capable of doing the job and see if it makes sense to move forward.


I am not sure what "getting bids" means but  I suspectmost of the guys you have pre-screened are in the same ballpark.  If getting bids mean hiring a contractor seperately? Don't do it, do you want a shaper who's last job was the berm around the Walmart parking lot? Let the Architect nicely tell you who he likes to work with.


Lot's of material on this board, try to get the decision makers up to speed before ANY decisions are made.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I agree with Corey.

If the club doesn't know what they want prior to selecting an architect, they'll probably get what they don't want, or deserve.

The club has to determine their objective and the project perameters BEFORE soliciting architectural consultants.

Then go through the interview process

Then select the individual who best understands and fits the objective.

With so many Raynor/Banks courses in the area, research coupled with subsequent commitee field trips should be part of the pre-selection process

P.S.

Which club ?

[fpd]

thanks all for the quick responses.

Corey/Pat,

I absolutely concur with everthing you've said. I have been trying to work through two good friends and board members to influence this in the direction it SHOULD go. Very difficult to do when you don't have a fully committed board and membership. The club did a half-assed job at redoing the bunkers in the early nineties. They no longer resemble Raynor/Banks bunkers(probably for easier mantainance) and are in terrible shape. While the board is starting to discuss a bunker project(and subsequent assesment), I have been urging them to seek out some reputable architects and to do it right. I fear they will make the same mistakes previous boards have made.

Corey,

I have been very impressed with the work that I've seen at Sleepy. I live close by, and have a good friend who's a member there. Saw the start of the work late last summer. Have not been able to get over there this year, but hope to soon.

Pat,

Hesitant to name the club as I am a member....well, no one from there would probably be reading this board anyway!! Knollwood CC, Elsmford, NY Raynor/Banks Tillinghast 1925-26.

fpd

[Mike Sweeney]

Both Geoff Childs and I have taken lessons with Bob Miller your pro and I played the course just one time. Knollwood looks much more Tilly to me, so Sleepy is an obvious model for you to study.

However, Rock Spring had a bunch of problems with their bunkers collasping from an architect's work. Kelly came in and fixed it up.

Like Pat and Corey said, it is a question of what you want to be: Tilly, Raynor/Banks or hire someone that wants to put their imprint on the course.

If you go to a Raynor/Banks look, it will be a big change from what you have now and it will get political. You will have to do lots of education of the membership. Your architect will need more than design skills.

[Dean Paolucci]

fdp - I went through this arduous task 3 years ago.  Do your homework.  The process is like an iceberg, only 15 - 20% is above the surface.  The hard work is done long before a pick goes in the ground.  On another note, I grew up on the Knoll which is clearly a sister club of yours.  Go visit it.  In fact the couple of times I played Knollwood I saw similarity in the features across the board.  In addition, Forsgate, Essex County and Montclair #4 are all "Steamshovel" gems.  George Bahto is the resident expert and I belive Ron Forse was a finalist at Sleepy.  He was masterful at selling the Membership in our town meetings. - DEAN

[Ray Richard]

I would call Ron Pritchard, I would check out his work at the Raynor designed, Wanumetonomy in Rhode Island ( ten miles from Newport). Ron didn't wimp out on lowering the bunker floors and creating dramatic bunker faces. His bunker faces are distressed, they don't look brand new. He added some fairway bunkering that looks like its been there since the 20's. He did a really good renovation that really enhanced this golf course. That 14K/bunker  seems strong, but with bunker blankets, sand costs in the Met area, additional drainage and  local labor/housing costs it might be a good starting point.

[Patrick_Mucci]

FBD,

The HUGE advantage you have is the abundance of Raynor/Banks courses within an hours drive.

Essex County, Montclair and Rock Spring are within 10 minutes of each other.  The Knoll and Hackensack aren't that far away and Forsgate is about an hour and a half to two hours away..  

Southampton and Westhampton are close to one another as are The Creek and Piping Rock.

Certainly tours of those courses will give you a flavor of the design style despite any alterations made over the years.

Obviously, Sleepy Hollow is close by.

So, you have abundant references available.

Still, the Board and/or Committee at Knollwood has to achieve critical mass and determine their goal/s.

Once that's done, the rest "SHOULD" fall into place.

Good Luck.

Ray Richard,

I don't think you could go wrong in retaining Ron Prichard.

[Ian Andrew]

The club has to determine their objective and the project perameters BEFORE soliciting architectural consultants.

Then go through the interview process

Then select the individual who best understands and fits the objective.

With so many Raynor/Banks courses in the area, research coupled with subsequent commitee field trips should be part of the pre-selection process

I can't emphasize enough how good the above advice is.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Both Geoff Childs and I have taken lessons with Bob Miller your pro and I played the course just one time. Knollwood looks much more Tilly to me, so Sleepy is an obvious model for you to study.

However, Rock Spring had a bunch of problems with their bunkers collasping from an architect's work. Kelly came in and fixed it up.

Like Pat and Corey said, it is a question of what you want to be: Tilly, Raynor/Banks or hire someone that wants to put their imprint on the course.

If you go to a Raynor/Banks look, it will be a big change from what you have now and it will get political. You will have to do lots of education of the membership. Your architect will need more than design skills.

I've been there MANY times and spent a lot of time with Bob Miller.

I believe Jim Blakovitch (spelling error -sorry) quite recently did a horrible job with your bunkers and at the request of the club altered your uphill (reverse) redan green to the point of ruining the hole. There is much of Raynor bones still there as with the beautiful par 5 5th hole and your great finishing hole.  Was #3 a short at one time? I can see Raynor in the uphill 2nd hole as well.  

George Bahto should know your history as well as what was Raynor and what Tillinghast might have done.  Whatever you do please do not use the Yale model for a master plan. I know a few members at KCC and none of them has a clue as to architecture, golf history or anything beyond whether the greens are fast and smooth and the bunkers raked.  Best of luck.

[fpd]

thanks again for the suggestions...Have been away and am just looking at the responses.

Does anyone have contact info for Ron Pritchard or George Bahto? I know George posts on this board. Please reply to this or to dff22@aol.com.

Thx all
FPD

[wsmorrison]

Please check your email.
WSM

[corey miller]

FPD

I know very little about Knollwood but I do notice your post starts saying Raynor/Banks as the archies.  Later you mention Tille involvement.  I really think you need to clear up some basics within the club before you start making contacts.

What you are trying to accomplish might influence who it would be appropriate to contact.

We took a little different tack at Sleepy but I am not sure that is always the most effective method.

[fpd]

Corey,

According to club history, Tillie was originally contracted to redesign the course in the mid 20's. After completing several holes, he was mysteriously gone from the project and Raynor/Banks were contracted to do the work. They apparently left the redesinged Tillie holes largely intact 6-7, 10-14, and then redesigned the rest. Raynor died before construction commenced I believe, and Charles Banks finished the project. How much is Raynor, Banks, or Tillie is open to debate. You can definitely see some influence of all of them in some of the holes, and particularly the greens. The few (and I mean few) elightened folks around here would like to see the place both restored to its former look, as well as brought up to the standards that today's game demands. It's a long process to make this happen, and educating the board and membership is where it has to start.

FPD

[Marty Bonnar]

FBD,

Patrick,
deeply Freudian.

The party of the first part, the artist known as FBD wishes it known that he is in no way associated with the party of the second part, namely one FPD.

Queen's Counsel wigs are being dusted down and possible copyright infringement lawsuits are already being discussed in the hushed reverence of Muirfield's Big Room.

best,
The Original - and Best - fBd.

[Patrick_Mucci]

FBD,

I've got a detached retina and can barely read, so, you'll have to excuse the error.

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