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Dan Moore

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Chicago Aerial: Idlewild CC Naylor/Langford Moreau
« on: April 27, 2007, 06:02:29 PM »
It's been awhile so here is a new one.  This course once hosted a prominent national tournament.



Current Google
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 10:51:23 AM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Phil McDade

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2007, 07:46:49 PM »
That is some bunkering scheme there. I espeically like the shrimp-like ones in the lower left-corner region. And there are a couple of Hell's-half-acre ones upper center. But the ravine, in my view, looks a little under-utilized (two holes appear to have substantial bunkers placed between the green and the ravine, somewhat negating its role).

No idea what or where -- northern section of Chicago, given the terrain?

PCCraig

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2007, 08:27:52 PM »
Lake Shore in Highland Park?

Not really too sure...how national of a tournament was it?
H.P.S.

Dan Moore

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2007, 01:54:53 AM »
How national--very for its day!  But that was a somewhat earlier version of the course.  

Yes, can't wait for Shelly to point out the 4th hole for me!!!

It was in the middle of nowhere when it was built after the club rejected the property that Beverly later used as being too close to the city.  

What's with the Johnny Cash Ring of Fire bunkers near the clubhouse?  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

RJ_Daley

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2007, 02:17:23 AM »
Dan, is this aerial photo oriented North-south, or have you flipped it to flip us?  ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

SL_Solow

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2007, 06:36:43 AM »
My old favorite Idlewild in Flossmoor, kitty corner from Flossmoor CC and very close to Olympia Fields.  A fun track that has lost a lot due to tree planting, loss of green size etc.  SHivis write about the 11th and 9 has lost most of the bunkers.  More later, I am running.

Dan Moore

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2007, 10:52:15 AM »
Al Naylor was the golf pro/architect hired in 1908 to design Idlewild CC.  One of the many course that sprouted along the Illinois Central train line.  Ravisloe was another nearby.  The 1912 Western Open was held there.  Langford and Moreau did major work there in the 1920's which is what you probably see in the bunkering and greens.  

Hopefully Shelly will tell us more after his round; its a beautiful day for golf here today.  Getting out myself this afternoon.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Adam Clayman

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2007, 10:16:55 AM »
Could someone help solve some personal confusion I'm having? I played out in this neck of the woods many many moons ago and for the life of me I cannot remember if it was Idelwild or Ravisloe. I'm leaning towards this course, Idlewild , because of the ring of fire ninth hole Par 3. If Ravisloe also has a par 3 ninth, I'm back to square one. Please help solve my riddle?

As an aside, the member who hosted me was one Tommy Wangersheim. Tommy was quite the character back in the day and for those who remember the War at The Shore, the Ryder cup at The Ocean Course, Tom was the one who yelled out some reference to Chicago as everyone celebrated the cup's victory immediately after it was sealed.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 10:18:06 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

PThomas

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2007, 11:00:30 AM »
Ravisloe's 9th is a par 4 Adam
198 played, only 2 to go!!

SL_Solow

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2007, 06:51:40 PM »
My Dad joined Idlewild whwn I was in my late teens and I was a legacy member until I got married.  I must have played the course oer 500 times.  It was designed by Naylor but langford did some extensive work although the club does not have much in the way of records.  A long time greenkeeper, pete Voykin, made some changes and subsequently green committees have one some questionable work.

Enough for pedigree.  The course is a lot of fun although it is a little short for the modern equipment.  Par 72 with 5 par 3s and 5 par 5s. Routing consists of a front nine running roughly clockwise in an inner loop with a back nine in an outer loop around the perimeter of the property running counterclockwise.  As a result regardless of the wind players are exposed to a variety of shots.  The greens are small with a few exceptions and generally rely on surface drainage resulting in some interesting contours.

Notable holes;

   2 is a relatively short downhill par 5 to a 2 tiered green with the pool/clubhouse creating an OB on the right.  Early in the round it creates a nice risk/reward chance for a birdie.

   4 isn't that special but Dan asked about it.  If you are having trouble finding it look at the par 5 right in the middle.  3 is a 180ish par 3 running next to Butterfield Creek (also running through Flossmoor and OFCC).  Turn left, drive uphill to a plateau with left trap at the crestt
 then straight to a green for an approx 550 par5.

  6 was a terrific par 3.  Approc 180 downhill (later extended via runway tee to about 220) it featured a green with a semi punchbowl on the right half sloping up to a small plateau on the upper right.  The pin position radically changed the hole and was the ultimate in green within a green design.  Unfortunately the green has shrunk.  Rather than restore it the membership ran a small creek across the front, built a new tee to change the angle and exposed an old reservoir to create a water carry from an angle that destroys the original strategy.  Both tees remain.

  7 is a nice long par 5 of over 540 with the creek running across the fairway about 15 yards short of the green.  I remember our old pro hitting driver driver with old baltas and real woods in the late 60's early 70's to reach.

  8 has one of the larger greens with some extreme rolling contours.

  9 is a short, 140ish par 3 over the creek.  The front bunkers were removed yeaars ago, the others remain.  Fairly large green again utilizuing the green in green concept to good effec.

  10 is a wonderful drive and pitch hole.  340 or so ( a back tee some 35 yards back and elevated 25 feet to the level of the parking lot also exists) it is well bunkered in the landing area.  The pitch is to a tiny elevated green with OB caused by a public road directly behind.  Despite its small size the green is highly contoured, back right to front left.  It looks like a birdie but I have seen a lot of big numbers.

  Shiva commented on 11.  A par 5 with the road on the right and the internaldriving range on the left.  Reachable for long hitters but the OB runs all the way down the right and the fairway plateau falls off steeply left to some difficult areas.  Additionally, at about 110 the fairway drops steeply to the green leaving pitches off of downhill lies.  Thus many lay back for a flat lie.  But the problems just begin.  OB caused by another public road is behind.  The real problem is a green sloped as severely from back to front as any I have ever seen.  When cut to tournament speeds, even in the 1970's, any ball above the hole was difficult to keep on the green.  I have seen my old pro putt a few roles up the hill away from the hole to try to stop it.

  13 is a beautiful little par 4 of less than 400 , dogleg right up a hill to a tiny green  Nothing fancy but lovely to look at and it requires 2 good shots.

   15 has been hurt by technology.  A dogleg left with bunkers and an old tree guarding the turn it used to take a pretty strong drive to get around the turn.. Irs easier now.  Still the green is narrow flanked by deep bunkers on both sides.  The club championship saw more than one player spend time going from bunker to bunker.

   16 is a neat little par 3 of under 140 yards.  The green is a tiny postage stamp built up above grade on a small plateau.  When I first played, the hole was as pictured with the front bunker extending some 60 yards from the green creating a psychological hazard but hurting the dub more than anyone.  It has since been reduced to a more normal size.  The funny thing is if one must miss the green, the bunker is the best place as it is almost impossible to hold the green from anywhere else.

   Finally 18, running back toward the clubhouse with Dixie Highway as OB on the right is a par 5 which is reachable by long hitters.  Well trapped and slightly uphill it gives a player a chance for a last birdie to try and even a match.

  A fun track.  I'll answer questions if you have any.



Dan Moore

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2007, 07:53:17 PM »
Thanks for the description Shelly.  I was trying to reference the hole you were telling me about, but must have the number wrong.  

Is the tee on 13 north or south of the creek?  

Another amazing example of trees taking over the golf course and narrowing the playing corridors.  

Knowing that Langford used bunkers, especially fairway bunkers, strategically rather than in a penal way, its interesting to compare where the bunkers have been modified or eliminated over time.  

The green on 11 sounds a lot like the 17th green at Spring Valley which slopes 6 ft from back to front, but that's a par 3.  The old 16th with the huge fronting bunker and smallish green reminds me a little of what the 11th at Spring Valley would look like if the bunkers in L&Ms design were ever added.

I'd love to see the routing from the 1912 Western, wonder if the WGA archives have anything.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

SL_Solow

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2007, 10:07:54 PM »
13 tee is just south of the creek in a mall chute of trees.  You cross a bridge immediately after the tee shot.

Adam Clayman

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2007, 11:47:19 PM »
The hole I remember most besides the par 3 9th must be the 15th. Are there little ripples in the fairway that serve to complicate lies?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

SL_Solow

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2007, 08:34:48 AM »
Adam;  It isn't that long since you left town.  Yes, there are a few "ripples" especially in the area where the fairway turns left  at the dogleg.

Adam Clayman

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Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2007, 10:06:22 AM »
Shel, I'ts probably been 20 years since I was there at Idelwild and I was only there once. Amazing how fast. Looking at the color arieal the trees complicate my memory as I seem to recall that area of the course as being somewhat sparse with trees. And it was that openness (and the ripples) that were memorable.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Evan_Smith

Re:Chicago Aerial
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2007, 01:33:22 AM »
Man, the bunkering on the old photo looks incredible.  It always upsets me when courses lose imaginative bunkering most likely because the greens chairman at the time kept hitting into them so he had them removed.  Or the always lame "It costs too much to maintain them" and then they spend tons of money on the clubhouse or some other non golf course realted item.

Dan Moore

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Re:Chicago Aerial: Idlewild CC Naylor/Langford Moreau
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2007, 10:54:20 AM »
There is a green of a par 3 ringed by bunkers like the 9th here in the 1938-39 aerial of Ridge CC which Langford designed before he formed the firm with Moreau.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

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