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Steve Lapper

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Re: Yale
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2020, 12:14:50 PM »
Shack has a story on his website today.
Hanover CC which is owned and operated by Dartmouth College is "closed for the season." Apparently the eggheads who make the decisions at these Ivy league schools never got the memo that playing golf is one of the safest activities there is during this pandemic. I feel bad for the people in New Haven and Hanover who belong to these clubs as they will have to find another place to play this year.




 Perhaps you don't understand the concept of colleges and the use of their facilities.



 Right or wrong, the Ivies are re-considering those college-owned assets that have a net negative cash flows, weren't designed for, nor ceded to, general public usage and consequently are line items on the liability side of the balance sheet. They are also potential future legal liabilities to their owners.


 They are closing them up because they see the next 12-24mos as a very difficult period for their school economics.


 This isn't an imprudent step as these schools don't see their facilities as essential public access product. As a golf fan (and an Ivy league graduate), would I like to see Yale open...absolutely...you bet, but it is no different than any other private course that maintains the right to assess their business prospects and make decisions based on their own priorities and needs.


PS..The real problem for Yale GC is that not enough of their successful and esteemed alumni have bothered to earmark sufficient specific endowment funds for the continual maintenance and operations of their wonderful course. Instead, the only ones interested wanted to trade it out of the University's ownership for a vastly inferior property nearby. Even the often insular cap & gown crowd recognized the stupidity of that move.

The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Yale
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2020, 02:27:54 PM »
Steve - do you think Yale would ever sell the course to remove it from their balance sheet?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tim Martin

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Re: Yale
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2020, 02:57:22 PM »
Yale is the Crown Jewel of college golf courses and one of the great accomplishments of the Golden Age. I wouldn’t conflate the tepid response involving the current situation with what might ensue if Yale ever considered a sale.

John Blain

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Re: Yale
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2020, 03:04:59 PM »
Yale is the Crown Jewel of college golf courses and one of the great accomplishments of the Golden Age. I wouldn’t conflate the tepid response involving the current situation with what might ensue if Yale ever considered a sale.
It's quite obvious that Yale in incredibly mismanaged.  I am a member of a university owned course in upstate NY, a course that hosted the NCAA D1 championship back in the late 70's and it is open for play and in fine shape.  Maybe Yale should consider a management company to run the place as they are obviously not capable of running it themselves.

Steve Lapper

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Re: Yale
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2020, 04:16:38 PM »
I agree with Tim and don't believe the school would consider a sale....just yet. After all, they did turn down an offer years back.


Ultimately, anything can happen, but the college has most certainly been approached by various management companies and hasn't budged either.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jeff Schley

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Re: Yale
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2020, 04:43:09 PM »


 Right or wrong, the Ivies are re-considering those college-owned assets that have a net negative cash flows, weren't designed for, nor ceded to, general public usage and consequently are line items on the liability side of the balance sheet. They are also potential future legal liabilities to their owners.

Do we know that Yale GC has yearly losses from it's income statement? Take year 2019 as the FY 2019-2020 will be an outlier.

Also the decision to divest Yale GC would be a very large strategic decision as the land is a large asset. You would have to look then at the balance sheet to see the whole picture.  Outsource the operations to a management company via lease, sell to a buyer for the land value itself we don't know.

"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Yale
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2020, 04:53:13 PM »
I’m a member at a university course. Furman University. Our course closed for the month of April because of the virus. It was the only area course that closed! A few of the faculty leaders said the reason for the closure was because the optics would be bad for the university if it remained open while the main campus was closed. After a month reasonable thought prevailed and the course was allowed to reopen May 1 with numerous virus related restrictions. But, hurrah, we were again able to play!


I have no idea how the golf course affects Furman’s bottom line or balance sheet, but it is one of the most popular golf facilities in the area. I can’t imagine it not being considered a positive asset.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Yale
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2020, 04:59:46 PM »
I was never enamored by the many complaints towards the union workers at Yale. Perhaps paying a living wage was just a bit much for their esteemed alumni.




John Kavanaugh

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Re: Yale
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2020, 05:05:57 PM »
This is an informative thread with some real legends at work: ForkaB is Rich Goodale


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23467.msg430271.html#msg430271

Tim Martin

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Re: Yale
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2020, 05:08:45 PM »
I agree with Tim and don't believe the school would consider a sale....just yet. After all, they did turn down an offer years back.


Ultimately, anything can happen, but the college has most certainly been approached by various management companies and hasn't budged either.


Steve-Most of the press coming from the Roland Betts offer was from him. Although the town of Woodbridge was willing to listen I don’t believe those that had a say at Yale ever took it seriously. Betts was involved in a battle to build Yale Farm GC in Norfolk, Connecticut and ultimately pulled the plug in 2009 over environmental issues that couldn’t be solved. I’m not saying Yale didn’t look at his proposal but if he wasn’t an alum I wonder if they would have?

Steve Lapper

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Re: Yale
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2020, 08:24:36 PM »


 Right or wrong, the Ivies are re-considering those college-owned assets that have a net negative cash flows, weren't designed for, nor ceded to, general public usage and consequently are line items on the liability side of the balance sheet. They are also potential future legal liabilities to their owners.

Do we know that Yale GC has yearly losses from it's income statement? Take year 2019 as the FY 2019-2020 will be an outlier.

Also the decision to divest Yale GC would be a very large strategic decision as the land is a large asset. You would have to look then at the balance sheet to see the whole picture.  Outsource the operations to a management company via lease, sell to a buyer for the land value itself we don't know.


No you and I don't know, but I do know people familiar with Yale's finances.


Yes, it would be a large strategic decision, but the balance sheet wouldn't have much to do with it. Outsourcing to a management company isn't a viable solution due to union contracts that govern operational decisions. Very, very low probability Yale would likely sell the land for a wide number of reasons. What would begin to remotely make sense would be a very long-term land lease (i.e. 99yrs) to a party willing to invest significant $$ into the course and operate it sensibly.


Tim,


   Roland Betts indeed made plenty of noise...enough to go noticed and (hopefully) persuade other Yale alums to agitate for a deal. Don't forget who his partners were on the deal...They made Yale consider it, but it didn't take long for them to realize it was lopsided and beneath the market.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Yale
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2020, 03:00:59 AM »



No you and I don't know, but I do know people familiar with Yale's finances.


Yes, it would be a large strategic decision, but the balance sheet wouldn't have much to do with it. Outsourcing to a management company isn't a viable solution due to union contracts that govern operational decisions. Very, very low probability Yale would likely sell the land for a wide number of reasons. What would begin to remotely make sense would be a very long-term land lease (i.e. 99yrs) to a party willing to invest significant $$ into the course and operate it sensibly.

Steve,
The balance sheet for the university would include the land value (at fair market value) in the property, plant, equipment (PPE) line and if they were considering selling would obviously be needed. As many know you can't depreciate land, you can reassess to fair market value. It is an option for them I'm not saying it will happen, but if it does then the balance sheet is where to look for that.
The income statement is what any potential operator would want to see as they don't own any of the assets, but want to see if operations have been profitable.  Of note is that Yale operates as a Section 501(c)(3) tax exempt entity, any operator lease wouldn't have that same tax shelter.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Steve Lapper

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Re: Yale
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2020, 06:28:42 AM »
Jeff,


Trust me, I well understand what a balance sheet is and isn't, same for an income statement and 501 (c) (3) status. I deal with these every day....probably far more frequently than you.

You seem to be missing the "read between the lines" part. Yale's balance sheet is a fortress, no matter that they are expecting a loss of near $1B in revenue over the next 12mos.* David Swensen has done a solid job of managing their $30B endowment.


 The income statement for the golf course most probably reflects a spectrum of moderate losses to break-even or some occasional or line-item fractional gains. As you note, the tax shelter privilege wouldn't extend to any third-party operator, yet they would be forced to accept Yale's labor union contracts. Do the math and you'll quickly see why no legitimate golf management company would be interested whatsoever.


 You seem to opine on many, many things around these pages, but in this case the nuances of a centuries-old institution and a hardened policy of rarely, if ever, divesting any substantial assets or facilities might escape you. Furthermore, Yale knows full-well how treasured their course is, however they (must) remain sensitive to the optics of what attention and monies they pay to it. To golf aficionados, we cringe in frustration at their reasoning and bemoan it's not opening, but it belongs to the university...not us.


  If Yale decides to play collegiate golf next season (and our very own Colin Sheehan is the ONLY source worth listening to on that), I'd wager the course will be  measurably groomed and reopened in some fashion. It is, as most know, the absolute finest college course existent.


* Maybe look at the very recent Bloomberg article about Harvard University's efforts to lower their headcount and substantially cut costs (in anticipation of substantial income losses ahead).....then tell us about why Yale is wrong to keep it's course closed.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 07:38:03 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Tim Martin

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Re: Yale
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2020, 06:45:09 AM »

Jeff,

 You seem to opine on many, many things around here, but in this case the nuances of a centuries-old institution and a hardened policy of rarely, if ever, divesting any substantial assets or facilities might escape you. Furthermore, they know full-well how treasured their course is, but remain sensitive to the optics of what attention they pay to it. To golf aficionados, we cringe in frustration at their reasoning and bemoan it's not opening, but it belongs to the university...not us.


+1

Jeff Schley

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Re: Yale
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2020, 08:37:31 AM »


* Maybe look at the very recent Bloomberg article about Harvard University's efforts to lower their headcount and substantially cut costs (in anticipation of substantial income losses ahead).....then tell us about why Yale is wrong to keep it's course closed.
Steve,
I DON'T want Yale sold first and foremost, just referenced that if done, you need the FMV from the balance sheet and then add goodwill probably for the history and Raynor tie. Certainly not trying to insult anyone by doing so, if I said something wrong please let me know. If you agree great. I'll relent to not reading as many 501c 3 tax filings, not particularly interesting as we know.

I don't see how we are saying anything different, or contradictory. I never hinted that Yale should divest from this golf course, but commented on the options as you have.
I read and learn, sometimes I have an view or opinion which may or may not align with others or perhaps even turn our wrong . So it's a good thing it is a discussion group.
In regards to Harvard, just looked at the couple paragraphs they printed and I'm not surprised. Higher Education has to maintain budgets and if their garden variety product (fact to face instruction) is compromised, their two boards should be demanding prudence. It isn't the Harvard's and Yale's that are really in jeopardy unfortunately, they are the top of the totem pole and have earned it.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Tim Martin

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Re: Yale
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2020, 08:48:02 AM »
Jeff-The dissertations on virtually every topic are patronizing and exhausting. People understand the premise of a balance sheet and income statement. ::)

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Yale
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2020, 09:43:15 AM »
When it comes to online degrees becoming the norm it is exactly Harvard and Yale that are at jeopardy.

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Yale
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2020, 10:17:55 AM »
When it comes to online degrees becoming the norm it is exactly Harvard and Yale that are at jeopardy.


Online degrees, especially at the undergraduate level, will not become the norm. If there is one thing that is almost universally agreed upon about the spring quarter, it's that remote learning blows and isn't close to comparable to the educational experience of being on campus, in classrooms and dorms, with other students.

ward peyronnin

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Re: Yale
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2020, 01:40:01 PM »
John you of all people should know that the "living wage" component of union contracts is not as big a negative factor as the huge inefficiencies imposed by restrictive work language and grievance games.
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Yale
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2020, 01:59:28 PM »
John you of all people should know that the "living wage" component of union contracts is not as big a negative factor as the huge inefficiencies imposed by restrictive work language and grievance games.


I'm a union contractor and have spent far too many hours on this site talking about my great life to disparage the men who have made that possible.

V. Kmetz

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Re: Yale
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2020, 02:13:32 PM »

Online degrees, especially at the undergraduate level, will not become the norm. If there is one thing that is almost universally agreed upon about the spring quarter, it's that remote learning blows and isn't close to comparable to the educational experience of being on campus, in classrooms and dorms, with other students.

I know the thread's about Yale but hearing this, I would be surprised to hear that DC is a faculty member at a college/university, because:

In the first case, this emergency situation was not a meaningful test of the online model that will be more prevalent-ingrained by Fall 2021, that the crisis itself pushed along; and it was barely a reasonable test of extant remote learning tools, as there was little in place besides Blackboard (for example) in which both teachers and students were fluent.  Courses that were already online were not affected with near the degree of disruption that "live" classes were, as faculty and student expectations and protocols were already known.

During this whole societal interruption, the maximum flood of training modules, WebEx seminars, remote learning conferences and tutorials have been flooding the faculty with voluminous, focused sessions offered almost all summer long.  If one is lagging or hoping to return to normalcy as opposed to getting these tools down pat, there will be accountability (at least in my venues). If you are an Instructional Technology Designer you are going to be in fish and loaves for the next decade.

A bigger question is the disparity of tools that students have to do online course work... not all students (especially Community College students) have adequate access to technology or have to compete in a financially challenged home whose parent(s) may be needing the bandwith/connection...some don't have laptops or PCS and relied on the school locus to do most of their work... an online model will also have to better tackle the tangent resources of the library, the labs, and the extra curriculars that support the overall mission.  WebEx and Zoom don't shine as virtual tools when some portion of the class doesn't have the compatible hardware/fluency to use them...

One concession I will make to the spirit of Dan's post (which seems so perfectly familiar of the contemporary parent of a remote college learner) is that both myself - and I suspect faculty at large - gave utmost forbearance and tolerance for the oft ragged work of students after the March 12-15 closures... though Spring Break was a natural pause in the term, it was too late in to assign the normal weight to post -quarantining lesson units... so if students had a good record when classes were live and stayed reasonably engaged with the materials via the sea change of all-remote... they were rewarded in greater measure than they were demeritted for failures to do so... I had to exercise compassion before normal discipline.  If one portion of one class/one semester was forever ruined by the disruptions of switching to remote learning in a global crisis... so be it.

It was tough and varied...I had 68 students in four classes at two schools... I had some straight B+/A kids withdraw without so much as an email...I had flagging students pick it up and use it as a chance to earn amnesty for previous failures... I had 4 students who lost household members to the virus and a total of 8 who reported having it themselves.  I had lazy average students do their best to obfuscate and feign confusion over remote procedures... the vast majority of them did almost/as well as they would've in the normal environment.


Again to repeat, saying online learning blows and will not become the norm from this emergency environment is like saying in 1997, the internet blows and will never last because the dial up speeds in 1997 were shitty... or you couldn't yet download music at a click...and there was no Wikipedia or YouTube...


If we are truly entering a new world of contagion-awareness and social risk, the dorms and sports will go before the remote learning goes, whether it blows or not.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Rob Marshall

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Re: Yale
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2020, 02:21:01 PM »
John you of all people should know that the "living wage" component of union contracts is not as big a negative factor as the huge inefficiencies imposed by restrictive work language and grievance games.


I'm a union contractor and have spent far too many hours on this site talking about my great life to disparage the men who have made that possible.


My father was a union contractor and felt the same about his men. He may not have always agreed with the union leaders but he ALWAYS respected the men and they respected him.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

David_Tepper

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Re: Yale
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2020, 01:28:31 PM »

Tim Martin

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Re: Yale
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2020, 09:38:57 PM »
A curious but welcome decision. The Ivy League has no Fall sports with everything postponed until 2021. Additionally the season historically is wrapped up by December so it will be approximately two months long.


Joe Bausch

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Re: Yale
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2020, 04:21:13 AM »
I'm hoping to revisit Yale this season.  I love the place.


Here is a photo album using pics from multiple visits over the years:


http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/YaleGC/index.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

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