[mike_malone]

 I suggested to a friend that a par three that was added to their Ross course because of a road widening that plays 160-170 yards downhill and slopes from back to front (ho hum!) might be better as a downhill very short par three , possibly with a front to back slope.

   The other par threes are -front side--160+/- slightly uphill and 160+/_ downhill slightly. On the back they are 200 downhill over diagonal creek and downhill 190 ish .

   My totally unsolicited (and probably unwelcome) advice was that a short testing #17 hole would be neat.


  What are the models ? Gulph Mills short #4 is wonderful, but I'm not sure if it is vintage Ross. I just thought of Lulu's short hole, but that is uphill.


   When I last played St. David's I was told they used to have a drop shot short par three that is now part of a par four.

[Mike Policano]

Mike, the 12th at Bald Peak is a devilish little downhill par 3 by Ross. I haven't played it in a while. Sweeney and Moore can probably provide more accurate details.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

Why don't you just turn it into an uphill par 3 and leave the green    Stop playing architect.  Check out Mike Young's thread on weeding out the BS.  You designing a golf hole on an existing course falls into that category with a lot to spare.  I'm gonna give you a knock on the head tomorrow.  If Ross designed 400 courses with 4 par 3s on each, that's 1600 more par 3s than you've designed.  My vote would be to keep the Ross and dump the Malone.  Prepare for a beating on my home turf.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Wannamoisett's par 3 3rd is a little devil.  Just a wedge or perhaps 9 iron from the back tee but do not miss the green.

[Andy Hughes]

Wayne, is the 77 yarder at Pocono Manor from Ross, or Flynn? I know you said once, but can't recall what you said  
(also not sure I would call it the 'best' anything, though it is a pistol!)

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

   I can understand that you find it hard to read my entire posts. That's fine with me. I said it was not a Ross hole; it is a changed hole because of construction.

[wsmorrison]

Sorry about that.  Then I'll vote for mystery architect X and dump Malone    

AH,

It is a Flynn, though it was drawn to play a bit over 100 yards.  Do you think it ever was longer?  Could it be?  I've never been there.

[mike_malone]

 Geoff,

   What's the elevation change on that one?

[Jesse Jones]

#3 at Pine Needles is a Ross shorty..Plays a little downhill.

[BCrosby]

The model for a short, downhill Ross par 3 is the 17th at Seminole.

The original 17th at Athens CC looked (and probably played) similarly.

Bob

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoff,

   What's the elevation change on that one?

Mike

Its pretty level but maybe a touch uphill if my memory serves me (a rare thing theses days).

The Pine Needles hole #3 is a cute one too.  I believe its over water.

17 at Seminole is 175 yards back and 162 1 set up so its a bit longer.  However, the narrow green is a good target to emulate.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Don't mean to get off topic but, does this hole remind anyone of the 7th at Palmetto Golf Club?

[michael j fay]

#11 Bald Peak- 125 slightly downhill, the essence of a one shotter. Hit the green short of the pin or pay the price.

# 3 Pine Needles- New tee makes it about 135. Downhill, not as severe a penalty for missing the green as Bald Peak. Again, must be short of the hole.

# 3 Wannamoisett- 132 all the way back. Hole and tee are about level. Left right and long are dead. Wonderful green. Scores range from 2 to 6 on a regular basis.

Ross built quite a number of par three holes in the 140-165 yard range often deceiving the player as to whether the hole is uphill, downhill or level.

[Mike_Trenham]

  When I last played St. David's I was told they used to have a drop shot short par three that is now part of a par four.

The original 13th hole at St. Davids was closer to 180 than 125.  No pictures exist.  We at one time had plans that Ross routed the course with 13/14 as both 3/4 (built) and 4/3 today but I have only seen the par 4/3 version (a copy hangs in my dining room).  No one knows who changed it speculation is Tillinghast but all we can prove (letters) is he changed our 9th hole from a short par 4 to a long par 3 due to interference with the clubhouse.  Mike you should play with long-time members if you want the facts.

11 at Plainfield is one of the best short par 3s I have ever played, if not the best but it is over 125.

4 at Gulph Mills is great but the green is so small and shaded it may only work agromically (word?) for a course with very little play during the summer season.

[Andy Troeger]

No clue how long it is as I haven't been there in awhile, but #16 at French Lick is a good short.

[Andy Hughes]

It is a Flynn, though it was drawn to play a bit over 100 yards.  Do you think it ever was longer?  Could it be?  I've never been there.

Wayne, I imagine it could have been longer, though it has been at least 25 years since I played it and could well be wrong. If memory serves, there isn't much behind the tee other than trees.
Odd you've never driven up--its pretty close for you.

[John Mayhugh]

No clue how long it is as I haven't been there in awhile, but #16 at French Lick is a good short.

It measures about 150 from the tips, but plays a bit downhill and shorter than that.  Tees are normally about 135 I think.  It's a great example of how a short hole can be challenging the way the green is protected with deep bunkers and the absolute necessity of being below the hole if the greens are fast.

[Brad Tufts]

#7 at Essex in MA is downhill, and about 135-140.  There are small tiers left and right, the green slopes back to front, and there is a creek short right to catch an underhit shot.

[Steve Lapper]

The model of perfection for such a request, and surprisingly not mentioned of yet, is the short 11th at Plainfield. This litle devil all but rivals some the more infamous short par 3's found at golf's more hallowed grounds. The green, seperated by gully from the tee, appears near level, but instead plays sharply downhill. It's strong right-to-left cant couples with a very pronounced back to front slope conspiring to confuse the player on the tee. While the card lists the hole fom 130-145yds, it always plays shorter (115-125) I don't have photo to publish but I know the hole goes well described on the "Courses" section here and is even offerred up as perhaps Ross' greatest short hole.

It is hole that anything deep of the pin brings a bogey-to-double bogey immediately into play and consistently terrifies even the highly skilled golfer.

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