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Paul Jones

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USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« on: April 18, 2007, 08:53:39 PM »
I just read this on Golfweek Magazine:

"The forecaddie hears plans are afoot for some green renovations at Merion Golf Club in Ardmore, PA in anticipation of the 2013 US Open.  Seems that USGA officials have been consulting with members of Tom Fazio's design team on plans to rebuild and moderate the slopes on three of the course's putting surfaces, including the steep 12 green. The proposed work would commence immediately after the club plays host to the 2009 Walker Cup, leaving plenty of time for the new putting surfaces to settle in.  The forecaddie remembers that the course performed famously well during the 2005 US Amateur and figures that USGA officials just can't help tinkering with old courses, even when it means permanetly compromising their character for the sake of one four-day event."
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 08:55:43 PM by Paul Jones »
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Paul Jones

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2007, 08:57:28 PM »
Once a course accepts a USGA tournament, does the course owner/members have any say in having the course modified (outside of green speeds and rough)?  Could the club say no we do not want our greens modified?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 08:58:08 PM by Paul Jones »
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Brent Hutto

Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2007, 08:58:21 PM »
When you're standing around holding a hammer everything starts looking like a nail.

PThomas

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2007, 08:58:45 PM »
uh oh....

I sense a firestorm brewing!
197 played, only 3 to go!!

Sean Leary

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2007, 09:28:15 PM »
It depends if they want the greens all running at the same stimp, and if they want them at 13.  If they do like they did at Southern Hills and have those three run slower than the others, then it is fine. Or keep them slower like at WF and it will be fine.

I just think the USGA is scared to death of having the pros eat Merion alive.  I just read the updated club history book, and it said the USGA has been worried about that since '71, and it hasn't really happened yet. The course played very difficult for the Am, and everyone there I talked to swears that it played no harder than it does for member play, at least tee to green.

We shall see. I wonder which other 2 greens.  I'm thinking maybe 4 and 5?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 09:36:05 PM by Sean Leary »

JSlonis

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2007, 10:36:11 PM »
NOOOOOOO...say it ain't so!  

I'm sure they'll be countless others, but I'll go on the record right now and say they shouldn't touch one single blade of grass on ANY green at Merion.  I could see the pro's having issues with #5 and #12.  Well, those greens are brutally difficult!  So what...they are the best players in the world...they could deal with it.  I don't remember hearing anything negative from the Amateur's a couple of years ago.

Sean,

I don't see why #4 would be an issue at all.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 12:15:37 PM by JSlonis »

Geoffrey Childs

Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2007, 10:42:29 PM »
Paging Mike Cirba - come in Mike Cirba

Jaime said it best - "...they are the best players in the world...deal with it."

I hope the members don't allow this and give back this tournament if the USGA insists.

I have a friend who grew up at Merion and spent some 25 years there.  He even claims that the new grass on the greens ruined them compared with the old German bent that was used previously.  I fear him having a stroke if he reads about this!

Mike_Young

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2007, 11:07:18 PM »
I played last year with a person that is on the green comm and he was showing where USGA thought there would be problems.....seems to me that the club could probably make things work as they are now but they would not be under the duress of a week of pracice rounds and 4 days of competition......the single/few acceptable pin positions could not take the traffic....IMO.....I hope they keep the changes to a minimum if it has to be done.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2007, 11:38:08 PM »
The word around town is if they're considering doing anything to that course for the 2013 US Open it will be to restore the original 10th "Alps" green on the other side of Ardmore Ave. Due to some extraordinary research from the Left Coast Merion has decided they need to pay tribute to the "advice" C.B. Macdonald gave Hugh Wilson, his construction committee and the club in 1911.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 11:49:43 AM by TEPaul »

JSlonis

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2007, 11:59:07 PM »
Tom,

If they messed with even one degree of slope on that 12th green, I'd figure it out in a nanosecond.  I don't know if I've ever had an easy, or for that matter a normal putt on that green EVER.  I think it is one of the hardest approach shots on the course, just because in the back of your mind, you KNOW if you mess up just a little, you are going to pay dearly.

Rich Goodale

Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2007, 07:03:39 AM »
My fear is that with the genetically engineered golf balls and prosthetically-enhanced golf clubs of 2013, some wing-nut physical-specimen freak now playing HS ball in North Dakota is going to figure out he can drive the 11th green, and the Mother Of All Hinkle Trees is going to have to be planted, somewhere......

jeffwarne

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2007, 08:04:19 AM »
If the USGA is worried that the pros will
"eat Merion alive" why on earth would they SOFTEN the contours of the greens.
Greens with less slope are more recepive to shots approaching from bad angles (particularly from rough), even if they putt with the same difficulty due to increased speed.

Leave the contours alone, maintain the greens at pinnable speeds (even if they have to slow down certain greens to keep their "target" speed on the rest(don't get me started on target speeds) )

If a few greens don't stand up perfectly to the traffic, I promise they'll still be able to finish the holes with a few bumps and/or
dirt and spikemarks showing.
It happens every day at munis (and Pebble Beach) all accross the country.

Small wonder we have to listen to the words "unfair pin placement" every time a member has a three-putt, yet they insist on greens that run 13 (or so they're told)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mark_Fine

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2007, 08:45:39 AM »
Softening those contours will essentially mean a complete rebuilding of the green and it's surrounds.  The area of disturbance might extend 40 or 50 yards out into the approach and well out on all sides of the green to properly tie in all the contours and surrounds.  It is a very complicated process to get it to look right and for older greens where you want to preserve internal contours (and just reduce the tilt), mapping will be mandatory.  

The only reason I can see why Merion would try to do something like this is for the U.S. Open  ???  Sometimes there might be good reasons to undertake such a procedure but as stated in Golfweek, the greens performed great for the 2005 Amateur.  Though I've only been around Merion a dozen or so times, I have never once complained about a green at Merion being too severe or impossible to putt.  Let the course play as it is and have the pros come in and experience "Merion" and not some subdued version of itself!  Once those greens are changed, they will never be the same again   :(

I made a post some weeks ago about top courses setting precedents and leading by example.  Merion should take a stand and set the right example for our great classic designs!  

Other than that, I don't have an opinion  ;)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 10:00:59 PM by Mark_Fine »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2007, 08:58:09 AM »
I initiated a thread on this subject a short while ago.

This is what happens when you take the King's "schilling"

Greens like # 12 and # 15 have to be on the hit list.

As golf courses increase speeds the natural progression is to flatten greens, eliminating their character, challenge and the fun associated with playing them.

What's difficult to understand is the following.

When you have character laden and challenging greens like
# 12 and # 15, why on earth would you alter them for 50 to 150 golfers for four days out of the next 10 to 15 years ?

Why would the members tolerate a disfiguration of those greens which will make them less challenging and less fun for all members and their guests when the U.S. Open leaves town and the greens are returned to their daily speeds ?

Why squeeze the distinctive life out of those greens ?

Once they're disfigured, they won't be restored, they'll be lost forever.

Shame on the leadership and members of Merion, Winged Foot and other clubs that permit these permanent disfigurations to their golf courses in exchange for hosting a Major Tournament.

What's disappointing is that Merion and Winged Foot have such rich golfing traditions, yet, they've lost their way, sold their architectural soul in exchange for notoriety.

As Jeff Warne stated, for the best golfers in the world, you'd think that the best defenses lie at the green end.

The arguement that hole locations are limited is nonsense.
Hole locations are limited at a number of great greens, be it the Postage Stamp at Troon or the 7th at Pebble Beach.

Merion, Winged Foot and other clubs embarking down this path will defend the disfiguration of these greens.  
They have to, otherwise, they'll look more foolish.  
They'll tell you about the increased number of hole locations returned to play, they'll show you computer generated graphics demonstrating how higher speeds can be accomodated, but, it's all smoke and mirrors, an attempt to justify the disfiguration in the name of presenting a more balanced challenge to the best golfers in the world.

As green speeds increase the natural progression for putting surfaces is toward flat, boring greens.

How does the U.S.G.A. reconcile recommending the disfiguration of historical greens with the mission of protecting the integrity of the game ?

jeffwarne

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2007, 09:02:04 AM »
Mark,
After softening the contours Merion's "shot values" will be restored by resurfacing with pool table felt so the greens roll "true" and fair.

Additionally, immediately after AGNC's May 15 closing  the new pines on Augusta's #11,15,17 and 7 (complete with attractive pine straw beds) will be Fedexed immediately to Merion for seasonal use.

That way Fazio can work on his second leg of the Slam.

Repotedly, the current Open Doctor is upset his bluegrass mound proposal was rejected.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2007, 10:03:45 AM »
Count me in with the Jamie stable...dont touch a single blade of grass...the course is perfect..one of the very few courses anywhere in the world that should be left 100% alone.
I accept that the news tees were probably needed for the "big guns" but leave everything else alone..please.
Number12 green is tremendous...it plays with your head from the middle of the fiarway...you know that long is DEAD and just short of perfect will come back to you...it is one of the thrills of playing the course....just as the greens on # 3,5 and 15 play inside your head....I get all aroused just thinking about them........where is that cold shower ;D

Mark_Fine

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2007, 10:28:53 AM »
Jeff,
Stop with the ideas as someone might start using them  ;)

Any changes for big tournaments on these great old classic courses should be like the grandstands, you put them up for the tournaments and take them down right after they are done.  If it is a problem to do so, don't do it!
Mark

Andy Ryall

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2007, 10:30:40 AM »
It seems odd that the members would accept these radical changes or that the USGA would go to the trouble of making these adjustments.   Why not just take the PGA route of using a series of Valhalla-type courses if it is going to destroy the character that makes these venues unique in the 1st place?

JESII

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2007, 10:35:54 AM »
Having never been associated with a club that hosted a Major Championship, I cannot comprehend the apparent, or promised, benefits that must offset such a huge negative as this possible result... or the use of a couple fairways on the East Course at Winged Foot as a circus ground (a paved and tented circus ground that is...).

tlavin

Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2007, 10:45:06 AM »
Trust me, this will end badly, not at the tournament, but in the long run...

JSlonis

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2007, 12:28:57 PM »
Like Michael has stated above, Merion is just so great to begin with, especially the greens, I just don't know why it needs to be touched at all.  There is no question that the 12th green is brutally difficult.  I think #15 is tough, but to a lesser degree.  If the USGA thinks that the other 16 greens wouldn't provide a stern enough test at the speeds they would need to keep #12 or #15 playable, I believe they are shortsighted.  I've been fortunate enough to play Merion when the course was tuned up to its maximum(and once...BEYOND the maximum), and I don't see how the greens could get any quicker for an Open.  

Pat also brings up an excellent point.  Even the slightest change to those two particular greens would be a monumental thing.  Is it really necessary to change the character of a golf course because the top players in the world will be playing it for one week out of the next 10-15 years ????

It's a testament to the golf course that so many guys realize the greatness in the architecture at Merion and don't want it messed with.  
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 12:56:21 PM by JSlonis »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2007, 12:38:11 PM »
The thing that kills me in this, is that when some of us took our original stance on Merion on this website many years ago, we forewarned of this issue. And here it will come to pass.

Hearing this news makes me think instantly of lyrics for the rock group Queen's anthem, Death On Two Legs.


Pete Lavallee

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2007, 06:54:39 PM »
Does Merion already have USGA spec. greens or are they the original, just built on the dirt greens? Could Fazio build a green in the same construction manner of the originals, or would he build a rigid USGA spec. green?

Surely having 2 or 3 USGA greens and the rest pushups would entirely change the character of the golf course. Of course the Club might be persuaded to change the rest for consistancy. Another benefit of USGA green is that they need to be rebuilt at least every 20 years or so to keep the drainage consistant, I believe. Sounds like a wondeful source of income for years to come.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 06:55:24 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Geoffrey Childs

Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2007, 07:59:05 PM »
Pete

Jeff Porteus working for the Fazio group did 5 greens at WF East.  While Jeff does great work and his bunkers at WF are second to none the end result was that they took way too much of the interest out of them.

They do not do USGA spec.  They remove the turf/sod layer of the green and roll it up for use later.  They then prep the soil underneath to the new contouring and replace the green turf.  All the tie ins surrounding the green are also tweaked so they fit in with the new green elevation.

PS- As I write this the YANKEES lead the Red Sox and that whiner Kurt Schilling 1 to ZIP - Go YANKEES

Sorry Pete- 2 ZIP - AROD HR!
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 08:14:18 PM by GJChilds »

Paul Jones

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Re:USGA green renovations at Merion for 2013 US Open
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2007, 10:40:31 PM »
GJ - Sorry, the Red Sox came back for the win.

Does the USGA tell the membership about the plans to change the course before the membership accepts a tournament?

Last year, I met a member at WF and he told me that he would be shocked if WF takes on another major.  He said the older members enjoyed playing the East Course more, since the West is harder and especially then being prepared for a the major.  Then when the put all the tents over the East course - that course had to be redone after the tournament.  

He predicted WF will probably stick to hosting US Amateurs and such in the future.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

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