[wsmorrison]

What are some of the oldest courses that have not undergone any revisions to the original routing?  By this, I mean tees (lengthening is fine as long as original tees are retained), hole corridors and greens are all in the opening day positions.  

I have not been to an American or UK course from the classic era or beforehand that hasn't had some alterations.  What is the oldest, or some of the oldest, original course(s) in existence? For a time I was thinking that the oldest American course I've played on might be Merion West (1914) but I remembered the 18th green was moved because of the parking lot expansion.  

[JMorgan]

Westchester CC

[gookin]

fox Chapel Golf Club - Raynor 1925 is unchanged. One small item #13 had two greens. One green was removed circa 1930. All other tee and green complexes remain in the same place

[Paul_Turner]

I was thinking Alwoodley (1907) but wasn't there a small change at the 11th par 3?

Swinley is unchanged 1910-11.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

I'd have to say Myopia. I don't think anything has changed there routing-wise since Leeds added nine and redid the course around 1900-02.

The more I get into the history and evolution of golf in America, particularly that really early era the more this Myopia CC is coming to the fore, in my opinion.

Some may consider it something of a relic in today's golf but back then it was considered to be one of the 2-3 best in the land.

And again, I think the routing is totally unchanged for at least 105 years.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Westchester CC

James

Nope-  see this article by my friend Mike Prystowsky on the evolution of WCC

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opinionprystowsky.html

[Gary Slatter]

Manchester Golf Club in Mandeville Jamaica, same nine holes as opened in 1865.  Sometime in the past century they built a new clubhouse and the order of play switched; the first tee became the 5th in the new routing.  
previously 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9
now         5-6-7-8-9-1-2-3-4

The 8th hole is a superb par 3, slightly uphill, stone fence on left, tiered green.

Are there older courses in the Caribbean, USA, Canada, South America?

[JMorgan]

Westchester CC

James

Nope-  see this article by my friend Mike Prystowsky on the evolution of WCC

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opinionprystowsky.html

No kidding!  I stand corrected.  I always thought the West course was unadulterated but the South was fiddled with.

[Brad Tufts]

Tom,

The original 9 at Myopia was routed differently than today, but about 6-7 of the holes are the same today.  Most notably different was an Alps hole played from the current 10th tee to the current 11th green.  I've actually played it a couple times, although hitting a 5w from the tee to try and clear the woods that have grown up.  When playing this old routing, we also played from #12 tee to the 14th green, a short uphill hole through a gap in the trees of about 130.  I believe the current routing was a sort of evolution since the 1910s or 1920s, with many holes from before.....They have an old routing/aerial-style diagram in the men's locker room, and it shows something like 200 bunkers as well!

-Brad

[wsmorrison]

I just don't think there are that many original courses still in existence.  How about Thomas's first effort, Marion GC near Kittansett?  I doubt that quirky little course has been changed at all since 1906.

[Paul Jones]

Cypress Point?

[TEPaul]

Brad:

I'm aware of the routing of the orginal nine hole course of Myopia. But my point is the course as it is today has been as it is (routing-wise) since about 1900-1902. That's when Leeds added nine and made the course the way it is now.

[TEPaul]

"Manchester Golf Club in Mandeville Jamaica, same nine holes as opened in 1865.  Sometime in the past century they built a new clubhouse and the order of play switched; the first tee became the 5th in the new routing.  
previously 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9
now        5-6-7-8-9-1-2-3-4"

Gary Slatter:

That is incredible. Can you really document that? If you can I definitely want to see the documentation so I can put it into the USGA Architecture Archive initiative. That is just remarkably early.

[Forrest Richardson]

I would agree — Myopia Hunt.

The funny, or odd, aspect here is that an implication is made that somehow change is bad and that maybe Wayne is looking for something to hang on to in a world where original classic is harder to find. Maybe he is not, doesn't matter for discussion's sake.

Whereas I will remind all that golf is an inherently changing game with a playing board that is not supposed to stay the same.

At The Old Course, for example, winds and golfers and maintenance activity are, as we speak, changing the landscape — even if slightly and over time. The Road Bunker never was — yet it remains (temporarily...?) a tremendous hazard that many would say, "...Don't touch that! It is a treasure...!"

Not all change is, of course, good or bad. I like that Myopia is frozen in time. However, if I were to guess, Herbert Leeds would likely be among the very first to say, "For God's sake...will someone please have the balls to make some change! I never intended Myopia to remain the same. It has become boring!"

[RSLivingston_III]

Wawashkamo - 1899 Alex Smith

[David Ownby]

Other than lengthening, I believe Holston Hills has had few (if any) changes since 1927.

[D_Malley]

phila. cricket club
tilly - 1922

i do not think the routing has changed at all.  the sequence you play the holes has changed a few times.

[wsmorrison]

RG,

Flynn was hired in 1926 to make numerous changes to current holes 6-10,12-14 and 17 at Philadelphia Cricket Club.  Much of this was adding new bunkers, removing chocolate drops and in the case of 10, the tee was built up and an excavation fronting the green was done for better visibility.  However there were changes to tee locations: Flynn shortened the 8th by 40 yards; moved the tee to the right on the 6th; changed the angle of play on the 12th with the line of play over the quarry rather than around it (they should return that line of play as it was changed again) and a new tee left of the original was created on 17.

[Brad Tufts]

Myopia?  Boring?  Blasphemy....  

I'd file it under the "never a dull moment" category. If only it could play firm/fast all year, not just for the Fourball...

[D_Malley]

wayne
so because there were new tee locations added you would consider this course as not retaining their original routing?

[wsmorrison]

For the purposes of this discussion, I mentioned in the opening post that as long as original tees were still in play, it did not matter if tees were shortened, lengthened or repositioned.  Some of the tees at Philadelphia Cricket have moved and thus angles have changed.  I agree that it is a nuanced set of criteria and that you are basically correct.

What about Philadelphia Cricket Club's St. Martin's course?  How intact is that?

[D_Malley]

the st. martins course has only a few original holes.
i think #'s 1, 2, 5, & 9 are the only remaining holes from the original course.

[D_Malley]

wayne i believe i have asked you this before, but did not get an answer.  what was the original angle for the #14 tee at phila cricket?  i would think that the angle would be best from further right where the ladies tee currently is.  was just curious if that is where tilly had it on the original routing.

[Andy Levett]

What is now known as Alnmouth Village was originally laid out in 1869, the same year as Hoylake and before any other English courses apart from Westward Ho!
Wexler and Rowlinson's update of Horace Hutchinson's 1897 classic British Golf Links shows no routing change to the present day.
Even the tees are the same, though the 6th green was moved at some stage during the 20th century, to improve that hole, and reduce the walk to the next.
However, there is a twist: one of the Parks added a extra nine post-1897 on slightly higher land. By 1930 the impressive  Foxton House had become available as a clubhouse and Harry Colt was brought in.
The result was nine new Colt parkland holes, the Park nine added in, and the (even then) very short original course given over to the 'village'.
I've played the current Alnmouth/Foxton  course and it's hard to fault. I didn't get the chance to try the original Alnmouth course but I did look and thought it could be hilarious.
I was hoping to post some shots but t'internet is being obstreperous.

[wsmorrison]

RG,

Here is a photograph of the 14th from 1938.  I don't know, and never did, where the original tee was.  I assume it is the same as can be seen in the photograph.  I don't think I mentioned a new tee on 14.  As far as I can tell, Flynn altered the bunkering on the hole by adding two bunkers, I believe greenside.  

It appears the tees as of 1938 are in the same locations they are today.  If it was moved to the right along the line of play, the tee shot would be more offset and might have more interest.  The greenside bunkering was not maintained according to Flynn's plan, as it appears to be broken up into lots of small bunkers.  Today, it is a bit more like Flynn's plans with three bunkers, but the bunkering is pretty plain in outline and not as nice as the Flynn plan.



The photograph is courtesy of Craig Disher.

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