[Bob_Huntley]

I spent some time last week playing a couple of courses away from home.

What struck me, was that not once did I see a player pick up when his partner had the hole won.
On a couple of occasions a player would birdie the hole and his partner would hunch over a putt to make...a double-bogey.

I mentioned in passing, it might be a good idea to get a move on and was greeted with an icy stare and something about recording a score for an accurate handicap. It would seem that the constant emphasis on handicapping is the real culprit in slow play.

[Maven of the USGA]

Jack Nicklaus (TV coverage of him winning USGA events) is responsible for slow play, if anyone is.  They never showed how fast he walked from shot to shot unfortunately.  Damn ABC.

[guest]

Putting for a double bogey doesn't slow anything down. I can make a 10 on a hole and do it just as fast as someone making a par beause I get to my ball quickly and know when it's my turn to play. People dicking around their ball with ridiculously long pre shot routines and waiting for greens to clear on par 5 second shots where they need the shot of their life to reach it is what causes slow play. Not to mention cart path golf.

[Craig_Rokke]

I personally don't keep a handicap, but I do like to have an official tally of how I did on a hole, and on a round. Otherwise
it's tough to really know for sure how well I am playing. I don't know...maybe I feel a little incomplete if I don't see my ball at the bottom of the pea can. If you have a serious match play event going on, well then, yeah, maybe you pick up once in a while.


Slow play is more a result of not knowing how to play quickly
and with purpose, or simply not caring enough to do so.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob,

I think Maven has hit on the culprit.

The marriage of the PGA Tour, MONEY and Television.

In addition, aren't you supposed to post all of your scores ?

Just because your partner birdied the hole doesn't mean that you should abandon your ball and never report a score for the round.

If someone is shooting a great round relative to their handicap on a given day, all they would have to do is pick up their ball when their partner has a score equal to or better than what they are capable of scoring on the hole and they would be exonerated from posting a score for the round under your recommendation.  That sounds like a license to CHEAT,
and a total undermining of the handicap system.  BAD IDEA.

Guest is correct, having a bad hole, other than lost balls and ruling usually doesn't slow down a round, it's all the other things he/she alludes to.

Playing fast is easy, just do it.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Ignorance of players is one thing ... Ignorance and timidity of management (whether that be the USGA or anyone else in that role) is quite another story.

I've always said the culprit in all discussion about slow play is the management or the party in charge of the event or club. It is the management that runs the aslyum -- not the inmates.

Let me also point out that one of the most hilarious episodes you often hear during a USGA Championship is when David Fay says the "players are on the clock." Does anyone in his right mind believe the penalties will be handed out? Does anyone really believe that players of prominent standing (Woods, Mickelson, Duval, et al) will EVER be penalized if deserved.

It's one thing to penalize Pete from Peoria and quite another for officials to have elephant size b*lls and hand them out to the bigger name players when deserved.

Management has the responsibility to set the tone when players arrive and let them know that slow play WILL NOT be tolerated. However, when you have refreshment vehicles circling the entire day with some flight attendant doing the honors you can bet things will drag. What clear signals does management show when it adds a host of other elements that take away from the primary task for the day?

I also agree that too much time is wasted by players intent on having a score -- no matter if that means snowmen or higher for that hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

I don't disagree with what you've said, and years ago sent a note to the USGA regarding exactly what you've stated.

A solution that a club in New Jersey came up with was simple and worked until they stopped enforcing it.  I understand that they will be reinstating enforcement next year.

No mulligans are permited on the first tee, otherwise the entire foursome gets a slow play letter.

As soon as the last member of the foursome tees off, the clock starts running, when the last member of the foursome putts out on # 18, the clock stops.

If play is over 4 hours, or if the group is more than 10 minutes behind the previous group, the entire foursome gets a slow play letter.

Two slow play letters result in not being able to tee off until after 12 noon for two consecutive fridays, saturdays and sundays.

An additional letter results in a month of delayed tee offs,
A fourth letter results in delayed tee offs for the season.

No personalities are involved, no confrontations, it's simply,
the differential between time out and time in, with the 10 minute provision.  Groups that fall behind somehow find the way to catch up, since all members of the foursome are responsible for fast play, and suffer the consequences of slow play.

I'm shocked more clubs haven't implemented the system.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

What you have described sounds logical and intelligent. The issue for many clubs is when the application of any penalty falls upon those who are "connected" and then penalties are applied only to those of lesser standing.

If slow play happens it must be met with across the board fairness and follow-up. Many times it's not. If management were really interested in slow play more so than if you are paying green fees with a Mastercard or Visa the problem would not be at the level you see today.

Most management does not want to offend anyone. They often figure if someone has paid $$$$$ to play it's better to leave them be. I can name plenty of top notch resorts where they follow this to the letter. What signal does that send?

The players are like cattle -- if management allows them to wander they will. Case closed.

[Stan Dodd]

$ is behind slow play.   Was told today it was a weekend and I must ride, but you can't take the carts off the path.  But 4 times during my round we had to wait on the tee will the drink bimbo did business with the group in front 200 yards off the tee with the rest of the hole open.  After the 3ed time the beers were really improving the game of the group in front so we waited while the looked for balls.

[A_Clay_Man]

Bob- Was this a daily fee course? Was it a set event? The moron with the icy eyes was obvious searching for any justification to demand his american right to do what ever the f&%k he wants. It's wrong, and I believe the first page of the rule book discusses courtesy, doesn't it?

[Matt_Ward]

One of the biggest jokes management pulls on players is the stupid and idiotic requirement of CART PATHS ONLY.

When a course says this you can just about add another 60 minutes to any round. Especially those that feature wide fairways and the paths tucked on the far side. The result? Groups hit to the other side and have to carry more clubs than a shopper leaving a store at Xmas time.

Club management says it's necessary to protect the turf. If they were that concerned many would let people walk, but NO, can't do that because it might mean less $$ for the facility.

Slow play is maximized when management makes such decisions. If you have mandatory carts then there must be some sort of mandatory access point back and forth from the fairway minus the par-3's holes which I can rationalize.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

I think most people are missing Bob's point, particularly Pat Mucci.  It is precisely the USGA handicapping system that makes people like Bob's fellow competitor sweat bullets over those putts for double when they are well out of a hole in a firiendly game.  This mentality, of being required to get a score on every hole, on every round you play, makes every game and every shot a data point rather than just an experience.

I've debated this issue enough times,with enough doyens and higher, to know the technicalities of and rationale behind the USGA system.  The rationale (trying to get as many players as possible to get a "handicap") was admirable in its time but is fundamentally flawed today IF you value fast play and playing golf as a game from time to time rather than an all out assault against some mythical handicap index every time you play.

It is not the only reason, of course, for slow play, but it is a major one, IMHO, and the USGA could do all of us a favor if they would really think about this issue again, and maybe, just maybe, admit that they might be wrong.

Of course, pigs might fly someday, too.........

Rich

[TomSteenstrup]

Why is stableford scoring so rare in the US? That can certainly speed up play. Players pick up as soon as a point is out of reach and you can still get your handicap adjusted at the end of the day.

It is the preferred way of play in my country for all but elite players.

Tom

[JohnV]

Bob, in some ways, the USGA Handicap system speeds up play.  I've heard a lot of players I'm playing with say something like, "That's 7, thats all I'm allowed" and pick up.

As for not posting, the USGA says that you don't have to finish a hole to still post a score.  For posting purposes you should take the score you were most like to make.  For example, if I was 30 feet from the hole when my partner made his birdie, I could pick up and add 2 to my current score and post that.  If I was 1 foot, I could add 1 and post.

Matt,
The USGA (Tom Meeks) gave Payne Stewart a slow play warning (first violation is a warning) while he was leading and playing in the final group on Sunday at the US Open in 1998 at Olympic.  Having worked on a tour, I can assure you that most of the players know how to pick up the pace when they get put on the clock.  But, I also know that there are officials who aren't willing to penalize the slow players if they are big names.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

I've seen enough abuses in the gerrymandering of handicaps   to understand the need for the posting of scores.

Just two weeks ago, at a club I'm familiar with, an individual placed third in a tournament.  It turned out that he had only posted 5 scores in his last 19 rounds, thus creating a higher handicap, which allowed him to finish in third place, depriving other golfers, who legitimately post all of their scores, from competing on an equal and equitable basis.

I think slow players are slow irrespective of their scores, good or bad.

But, that's just my opinion.  

[THuckaby2]

Tom Paul, please forgive me but....

Rich is right.

And I think you'd agree.

But also, John V makes a very valid point that the USGA system does not insist on a hole being played out....

In any case, I really think the USGA handicapping system and it's insistence on having a score posted for each hole is just ONE reason for slow play here.  Pat Mucci is correct also - slow players are slow regardless of handicap considerations.  There are many ways to try and fix this part of things, and that NJ club is on to something.

So my question is how would you improve the handicapping system?

And I have no answers.  So long as people value handicaps and want stroke play scores, insistence on holing out is going to be a problem.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Great thoughts, Dave.  All very valid.

Just do realize your #4 exists NOW.  A "T" is listed next to scores achieved in tournament play, and a normal GHIN listing breaks out the T scores to give a T handicap, if desired.  Add this to the litany of things people don't know about handicapping...

TH

[A.G._Crockett]

Dave is right at the outset: slow play is a product solely of inconsiderate players!  There is no ONE cause outside the player's control that makes play slow, just excuses that a player looks to.
In our club tournament, we instituted a penalty for slow play, with a double-par requirement if a foursome got out of position.  The first group out on Sunday (2nd day) was the four worst golfers in the tournament, and the low round in the foursome was 106.  They finished in 4 hrs., 10 min.

[THuckaby2]

The day I give 3 a side to you, Mr, Schmidt, is the day they check me into the losers funny farm.  

I get what you're saying though.

This is the model used in Scotland, btw - only tournament scores count, your handicap is based only on those, that's what you get for competitive play, negotiate your own outside of that.  Mr. Goodale favors this approach.

And it is indeed the best way to handle things... but... I continue to maintain it's not gonna work here.  I sure could live with it myself... but too many people want an "official" handicap and don't play enough tournament golf to make this valid.  

Try telling the millions of US players who never play a real competitive round that they can't have an official handicap.  Nope, that's just not gonna fly... admirable and logical though it might be.

TH  

[THuckaby2]

That makes damn good sense, Dave (the handicap discussion parts - the only way you get shots from me is if we're trying to cover a donation to your favorite charity).  Hmmm... do we know anyone affiliated with the USGA who could make this happen.... the host of this web site comes to mind!

TH

[Craig Van Egmond]

I think education of golfers can go a long way to speed up play. If your playing in carts, drop off your buddie at his ball and then go to yours.  

My buddies and I usually play ready golf, we hit the ball out of order sometimes because of it or we do continuous putting instead of marking the ball and waiting our turn. I sometimes worry that when I play with others that this behavior bothers them, I often get comments on how fast I play.

What about the effects of tee time spacing on pace of play?  The architecture/routing or the maintenance of the course.  When I played at Newcastle, in the beginning they had 8 minute tee times and lots of high rough so rounds were long at least 5 hours during prime time. Then they moved back the tee time interval to 10 and mowed down most of the rough and surprise the rounds got shorter by at least 30 minutes.

Last Friday I played a course were the first hole was 418 yards with wetlands, tall rough and a reachable water off the tee and followed that with a par 3.  Not very conducive to a fast start.  However #10 was a 380 yard par 4 with no rough or wetlands followed by a par 5.  Would switching 9's make the rounds faster?

[Steve Lang]

Craig... finally a comment related to architecture. Is a 5 par start then better than a par 4 to string out beginning play?

I have yet to see a handicap system where there isn't sandbagging unless the players ration themselves strokes for their individual bets.  Its essentially the T score that counts.. but I often see it slow up play most at the last three holes when most $ come into play.  USGA handicaps have nothing to do with it at that point.. Its primarily a personal choice compounded by the physical factors noted in earlier posts.  Is it thus more an afflication of medal mentality?

If you use handicaps for flighting (pairing) only in tournaments, and not creating net scores, you'll find folks would rather be associated with a higher flight (better players).. and play along at a better pace if they do.

I know of one public course (Am Golf run) where they use an incentive plan to keep times to 4 hours..  You get bonus points for doing so and cash in for carts or rounds etc.. versus the punitive system of ding letters.. do you want to be the golf policeman...

[MainelyJack]

I agree that Dave has put together a very good list. Add to that those people who don't know how to manage themselves on a golf course. They don't think ahead about the better place to park the cart to reduce walking; they don't line up their putts or survey their shots while others are doing the same; they don't play ready golf - "who's away? Who cares - if you are ready - play, so long as you don't interrupt someone else; they get talking when they should be going about their business. It still comes down to having someone policing the course and making people keep up. If you think you might be asked to leave a course you just paid $150 to play, you might be thinking of speeding up. Also - "Let faster players through!" It takes little time and relieves bottlenecks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TXSeve,

Are you ready for this one.    

I say that ENVIRONMENTALISTS are more responsible for slow play than the USGA.

Just look at all of the courses designed with environmental restrictions or compromises and you can see the resulting cause and effect increase in slow play.

It's environmentalists, not the USGA.

[Bob_Huntley]

Patrick:

Come to think of it, you are right.

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