[Mike_Cirba]

Jason,

Did I mention that unfortunately I have an inordinate amount of body hair?

Enjoy Phoenix.  

Just remember that the first time I strayed off a fairway at Whisper Rock, about 5 feet mind you, I saw my ball lying there, seemingly calling my name asking for me to easily retrieve it.  

I reached down to scoop it up, only to be speared in the hand by the pointy spikes of some type of alien plant, which shot hot acid and other poisonous agents into my bloodstream, and it took about 6 more holes before I began to clear from serious wooziness.

Did I mention the Gila Monsters?  

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

Just remember that the first time I strayed off a fairway at Whisper Rock, about 5 feet mind you, I saw my ball lying there, seemingly calling my name asking for me to easily retrieve it.  

I reached down to scoop it up, only to be speared in the hand by the pointy spikes of some type of alien plant, which shot hot acid and other poisonous agents into my bloodstream, and it took about 6 more holes before I began to clear from serious wooziness.

That's a Jumping Cholla.  There is an easy cure for that -- Don't touch it!  

[Ken Moum]

I reached down to scoop it up, only to be speared in the hand by the pointy spikes of some type of alien plant, which shot hot acid and other poisonous agents into my bloodstream, and it took about 6 more holes before I began to clear from serious wooziness.

Shee-it... you ought to see what happens when you start following a bird dog through that stuff in pursuit of a covey of quail!

You want a mental image? Imagine a guy with his pants down, pulling cactus spines out of his.....

LOL

K

[Ryan Farrow]

Jason,

Did I mention that unfortunately I have an inordinate amount of body hair?

Enjoy Phoenix.  

Just remember that the first time I strayed off a fairway at Whisper Rock, about 5 feet mind you, I saw my ball lying there, seemingly calling my name asking for me to easily retrieve it.  

I reached down to scoop it up, only to be speared in the hand by the pointy spikes of some type of alien plant, which shot hot acid and other poisonous agents into my bloodstream, and it took about 6 more holes before I began to clear from serious wooziness.

Did I mention the Gila Monsters?  

They call em Jumping Cholla for a reason. If this is the alien you are talking about.

[Jim Nugent]

 

Jim N:

In a word -- yes.

Then why is PV so revered and desert courses kind of reviled.  (Soft, cuddly baby quilts aside.)  

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

If Matt Ward has told you that the off-fairway areas at Pine Valley are anything remotely like normal low-country desert such as can be found in Arizona, he is certifiably insane, probably the direct result of an attack from one of those botanical spiny lobsters that populate the desert floor.

[Jim Nugent]

Mike, what are the differences?  (Sorry, I didn't quite understand your earlier explanation.)

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

It is rare that one either loses a ball or has no play but to drop at Pine Valley.   Of desert courses I've played, I find about a 25% chance of finding one's ball (venturing more than a couple of yards into it is indeed taking one's life into one's hands more than a penalty stroke is worth), and even if it is located, the odds of being able to take a swing without serious pain is slimmer still.

The ground in the desert is rock hard...it's not so much sand as pebbly silt.   The flora and fauna are tougher than that.   Even the plants that look relatively docile pack a punch.  In desert golf, the bottom line is that unless the ball is right around the edge, one just takes a drop and moves on.

By contrast, the sand at Pine Valley is ocean sand.   It's generally soft, even where compacted.   It has very little in the way of rocks or large pebbles.   The plants and shrubs growing within are generally of very low-danger quality and the most fearsome thing you might encounter is the root or branch of a pine tree restricting your swing.

The caddies are very adept at finding your ball and almost always you'll have some kind of shot, even if it's a brutally difficult one.   Rarely at Pine Valley is a ball so far out of play that the caddies don't locate it, and taking a drop there is something less than manly.  

It has to do with the simple difference between a rugged, playable environment and a foreign, hostile one.

Comparisons between the two are really night and day, despite what might appear visually to be a similar type of hazard.  

[Ken Moum]

Mike, what are the differences?  (Sorry, I didn't quite understand your earlier explanation.)

I won't try to claim that Mike's experience is unique, but since my parents moved to AZ about 20 years ago, I've played down there a fair amount, and I almost NEVER abandon a ball in the desert. For one thing, when I'm there, the nighttime temps are usually in the 60s, which pretty much eliminates the snake problem.

I have played dozens of rounds on desert courses, and hunted quail a fair amount in AZ, and I never seen a snake.

The last time I was there was last weekend, and we played two rounds on Longbow, where there's still a fair amount of desert, and two of us spent some time off the grass. We found nearly every ball and played most of them.
( I never took a penalty stroke, and the other guy had about 3 or 4 drops)

There are courses where it's a problem, Ancala was one of them. The desert there was almost untouched when Iplayed it, and there was only about a foot of short rough between the fairway and rocks/bushes/gravel. But even there, the members carry a "rock club" to allow them to play out of the desert.

FWIW -- I was at a swap meet there last Sat. and one of the golf dealers had a barrel of used 6 irons from a demo program labeled "Rock Clubs $5.00 each."

I've not been to Pine Valley, but it's pretty clear that the sand there is almost like a bunker. The desert is more like a gravel road.

K

[Mike_Cirba]

KMoum,

Perhaps it's the courses I played.  The ones north of Tucson I played last visit were just literally filled with saguaro and other native plant life.   It was thick and probably as much vegetation as sand in some places.  Finding a ball or being able to swing at it just weren't high percentage options.

Also, did come across a squashed rattler on the cart path.   That was somewhat unsettling.

[Andy Troeger]

KMourn,
I evidently didn't look hard enough either, as in all the desert courses I've been playing in New Mexico and Arizona, if you hit it in the desert, the 25% figure Mike gives has been fairly accurate. Depending on the course it might go up to 50%, but not much more than that of the ones I've seen. Of the ones I've found, few were playable without a drop or moving the ball in some fashion.

[Ken Moum]

in all the desert courses I've been playing in New Mexico and Arizona, if you hit it in the desert, the 25% figure Mike gives has been fairly accurate. Of the ones I've found, few were playable without a drop or moving the ball in some fashion.

I suppose it has a bit to do with the course itself, for instance, while I have never played it, I have walked the TPC Scottsdale, and you'd be hard pressed to find ANY desert areas there that are completely unplayable. But then, maybe you don't consider that a desert course.

For instance, I've played here http://www.rmrcc.com/Images/Library/4thRMR147912_opt.jpg a fair amount and when it first opened, it was pretty bad if you missed the short grass. But the last time I played, you could find almost every ball and play most of them back to the fairway.

But it was still punishing enough that that regulars had a triple-bogey max in their money game.

Here's where I played twice last weekend, http://www.longbowgolf.com/sites/images/168/longbow2small.jpg and it's easy to see why we don't lose a lot of balls.

FWIW, this was designed by Ken Kavanaugh, who's been lauded here for his Vista Verde course.

K

[cary lichtenstein]

I think desert golf is rather boring with the exception of the courses in the foothills and ones will excellent topography.

For examples, some of the Scottsdale courses, every tee shot is pretty much the same, forced carry ver scrub, desert on left and right, so hit it on the green stuff with iron into the green.

[Andy Troeger]

K,
I played TPC Desert a few years ago and that one was more the exception to being able to actually find the ball. Longbow appears to be of that nature. Vista Verde was a little better than average as well. At Black Mesa here in NM I played the entire round with one ball despite hitting into the desert a few times.

On the other hand, courses like Desert Forest and Saguaro it was pretty tough to find your ball in the desert.

Probably just depends on the course.

[Forrest Richardson]

"Desert Golf" hit some low marks from about 1985 through 2000. Mostly "target" designs were created, the owners not wanting to clear native desert along fairways as had been done for Desert Forest, Papago and the old (original) Boulders. Red Lawrence, Jack Snyder and Jeff Hardin were being replaced with "fish-out-of-water" designers such as Fazio, Nicklaus and Norman. Tight, target fairways were slotted through native desert and it was often no fun for golfers.

Those of us with old dented and scratched 5-irons to use to recover from rocky desert have become far and few between. I share some blame for being the first to write the "desert rule" in 1984 at Phantom Horse. Simply, we had a very restrictive turf and corridor. I knew players would not be able to negotiate if there were not allowed to optionally take relief from where their ball entered the abiss of the cactus and desert.

Our work at Lenegd Trail (with Rees & Co.) broke the mold. We tried for graceful, wider and more angles. Although we still have tight in places, we tried to overcome it with creative lengths and paid attention to where most people would play from and to. A lot more courses in desert settings recent times have gone for this approach

What makes you all think "desert" means Phoenix, Scottsdale and Palm Springs?

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