[Jason Topp]

I've seen many posters express this sentiment over the years. Desert golf should have many characteristics that meet the ideals of many on this site:

1.  No trees
2.  Firm fast conditions if maintained as such
3.  Interesting terrain and unique hazard features
4.  The desert is a true hazard, that allows bith escapes and punishment in a manner that many here would consider ideal for a bunker.  (not raked, vegetation).
5.  Courses built in the last 15 years have very wide fairways.
6.  Beautiful surroundings

So . . . What is wrong with desert golf?  Could such courses be designed in such a fashion to make them better or is the problem inherent in these types of courses?

[Bryan Izatt]

It isn't bad to me.  For others I'd imagine that your point #4 is a bad feature.  Tough to deal with essentially a penalty stroke (or 2 if you actually play by the rules) on both sides of every hole.  I guess point #5 is true nowadays to deal with the perception of #4.

Others may also find the superimposing of green ribbons of fairway on desertscapes jarring.  I find it attractive.

[George Pazin]

It's not bad if you're a decent golfer. It's death if you're erratic.

I think I'd disagree with almost all of your points, but that could just be a reflection of the particular desert courses I've played.

And if Phoenix ever needs rain, they should just give me a call. 3 trips, no good weather for me, how weird is that?

[wsmorrison]

I'm not trying to state that desert golf is bad.  As Tom Paul says, its a great big world and there's room in it for a lot of styles and tastes.  It happens not to be a style I am drawn to.  As Steve said, I would want to see Desert Forest, but I don't know if I'd make a dedicated trip for that.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

It's more than 3 months of decent weather. October through early June is the prime season in Phoenix and Tucson. For those who enjoy 6am golf, the summer months are ok and beat the humidity of the east coast.

As far as the golf is concerned, there is a good variety of courses. For those erratic golfers who don't enjoy recovery shots from the desert, there are pretty good-non desert courses out there; for example, Wigwam Gold and Papago.

[Jason Topp]

I'm not trying to state that desert golf is bad.  As Tom Paul says, its a great big world and there's room in it for a lot of styles and tastes.  It happens not to be a style I am drawn to.  As Steve said, I would want to see Desert Forest, but I don't know if I'd make a dedicated trip for that.

Wayne - I probably chose a bad title although I do not think your perpsective is unique.  In fact it is one I share to some extent and I'm trying to figure out why I share those feelings.

Historically (in the 80's), I thought of desert golf as a target oriented game that rewards very defensive play.  If you keep the ball on the grass, you do ok.  If not, you shoot a million and the average golfer cannot keep it in play.

Courses built within the last 10-15 years seem to have a lot more room off the tee, and I play agressively if I am swinging well.  Thus, I do not think that historical perspective is accurate any more.

I see a lot of similarities between the terrain of Sand Hills - which is the best course I have played - and terrain for many Arizona courses.  Thus, I wonder if:
1.  I misperceive the terrain
2.  there is something that makes it more difficult to design in the desert  (I don't really buy the turf restriction argument.  StoneEagle and many other courses have gotten around that issue and reservation courses typically do not have the same restrictions);
3.  Architects have not done a great job in the desert;
4.  We simply do not like the threat of the desert on both sides of every hole (its not that much different than long grass on links courses in effect on one's game);
5.  Aesthetics cause a problem for some reason (golf is not natural in that environment and the courses tend to have housing); or
6.  Desert courses are just as good, we just do not recognize them as such.

[rjsimper]

Jason-

Which desert golf courses share terrain features with Sand Hills (i've not been to SH, so I am just curious)

My take on desert golf is that the older courses (Troon North, Sunridge Canyon, etc) are target/heroism oriented courses where you likely won't shoot a good number and are visually spectacular in large part due to the intimidation factor.

Newer courses (Talking Stick, Raven at Verrado, Stone Eagle, Escena) are adding width and realizing that playability is an important factor toward getting people to reflect positively upon their day and consider playing multiple times.

I don't think desert golf is bad, but I'd sure get tired of it if it's all I played.

Jason - the turf restriction argument IS a big deal, I just forget where it is.  Tom Doak said that there were either no or very lax rules in Palm Springs, but Arizona non-Indian land is subject to something like 90 acres of irrigated turf (again, I don't know the exact figures).  There is a marked difference between the courses in AZ and the courses in Palm Springs - take the Palms, for example.  Yes, it's in the desert, but that's not at all Desert golf.

Stone Eagle is more mountain golf than desert golf.

Desert golf historically wasn't all that great...but I think now it's starting to get more love in the GCA circle.  Designers like Doak and C/C have likely paved the way for greater acceptance of designs in the desert.  Will it shed it's novelty status? I bet it does - it's already started to.

Hell, Rustic Canyon is pretty much in a desert.

[Adam Clayman]

Jason, As with most stereotypes, not all Desert Courses are bad. Yes, there has been a marginal increase in better courses built in the desert, recently. As to why that is has more to do with the design principles missing from the majority of courses that caused the stereotype.

The quality of golf found at places like Desert Forest(Wayne it is worth the trip) are head and shoulders above abominations like Wolf Creek.

I've always felt Pinon Hills had a special quality about it, that separated it from the stereotypical. As well as Black Mesa.

[Yannick Pilon]

Personally, I love the look of desert golf and loved every minute of my trip there last winter, but to answer your question, I would say this:

On a global scale, it's bad because it uses enormous quantities of water to irrigate grass in a climate that should not see any.

In other words, it's a huge waste of a precious ressource.  Some would even say that golf in the desert is, in a way, almost unethical.  Even though I love golf, I would have to agree.

I wonder when these courses will be forced to stop irrigating because of the lack of water.... Or in fact, any course for that matter.

Then we'll start to see firm and fast conditions everywhere!  How great will that be?  

YP

[Jason Topp]

The quality of golf found at places like Desert Forest(Wayne it is worth the trip) are head and shoulders above abominations like Wolf Creek.

Adam - I've always been facinated by Desert Forest (I even bought Klein's book) because it seems to me that it would be an impossible course for most players because of the diffculty in finding the fairway off the tee.  In that respect at least, it seems to represent the thing that most people do not like about desert golf.    

[Jason Topp]

On a global scale, it's bad because it uses enormous quantities of water to irrigate grass in a climate that should not see any.

In other words, it's a huge waste of a precious ressource.  Some would even say that golf in the desert is, in a way, almost unethical.  Even though I love golf, I would have to agree.

I wonder when these courses will be forced to stop irrigating because of the lack of water.... Or in fact, any course for that matter.

Then we'll start to see firm and fast conditions everywhere!  How great will that be?  

YP

Yannick - Idefinitely am sympathetic to your concerns.  I do not know how much they are alleviated by the fact that most of these courses are irrigated with effluent.  I do not know the environmental puts and takes of such an approach, but I believe the impact of golf courses pales when compared to the impact of farming in the desert.

[Adam Clayman]

I've always been facinated by Desert Forest (I even bought Klein's book) because it seems to me that it would be an impossible course for most players because of the diffculty in finding the fairway off the tee.  In that respect at least, it seems to represent the thing that most people do not like about desert golf.    

Jason, Impossible does not really enter into it, Because Lawrence doesn't dictate to the golfer where to hit it, or did he use breaks in the fairways, as cross carries, ala most target stereotypical style Gc's.
 By no means is the feeling of narrowness in one's mind on any of the teeing grounds. The intelligent movement of the ground at DF is clearly responsible for it's deserved recognized quality and is what separates it from the sterotype.

[Powell Arms]

I would call it bad, but it is not my style because I believe it to be too penal.  I have only played as a tourist, and have not played desert golf in about 7 years, so the designs may have been softened in the interevning time.  

The problem I have is simply that there is no transition from fairway to very difficult waste areas.  In and of itself, that may be OK.  But as someone that is playing one or two rounds on a desert course, the serveity of a penalty on even a well struck ball is too much.  With imprecise distance information, it is too easy to hit a ball thru a dogleg, for example, and roll off of the fairway.  Well struck, but severly penalized.  

Of course, I could just play with better information, but that isnt always feasible.

[Andy Troeger]

 By no means is the feeling of narrowness in one's mind on any of the teeing grounds.

Adam,
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but the feeling of narrowness was in my mind on just about every tee shot. I wasn't playing for score (thankfully) but I lost a handful of balls and I'm a 3-4 hcp usually. A couple of the shots were very poor, a couple others unlucky.  Its a very good golf course, but its narrow for sure.

[Bryan Izatt]

I didn't find the new courses all that narrow off the tee.  Fairways could well be 50 yards or more wide, although I didn't pace them off.  The older ones like Troon North are definitely narrower (but then you're more likely to hit houses there now than the desert   )

I find FL courses more intimidating with all the water hazards on every hole.  There the ball is definitely lost.  In the desert there is at least some hope of  finding, if not playing, the ball.

Yannick,

Most of the courses are using reclaimed wastewater.  As long as there's civilization there's wastewater.  Dump it in dry river beds after treating, or dump it on the golf courses, it's not going to go far before it evaporates.  Surely the golf courses are foreign organisms in the desertscape.  But, then so is (wo)man.  I guess that's why there are national parks to try to preserve some of the natural environment.

[John Foley]

The planet is not that goddamn fragile,  people!

Bill Thank You!!

As for the narrowness of the fairways, I'll agree that the more recent the builds, the more generous the fairways. Never had a concern about narrowness at either WeKoPa courses, but a few older ones (a few of the Pointe courses - why are those never mentioned here??) we're pretty tough.

[Jason Topp]

Jason-

Which desert golf courses share terrain features with Sand Hills (i've not been to SH, so I am just curious)

Ryan - by that statement I simply mean lumpy land with constant undulation.  In some areas it will be too severe and in others not provide enough interest, but the type of contour can be similar.

[Gary Slatter]

I enjoy desert golf - the experience is best in the summer time when the rye grass has gone, and the courses play in 2 or 3 hours.  The TPC Scottsdale is great when its hard and fast in the summer.  The one drawback for this audience might be the use of carts, but imagine walking and carrying 5 gallons of water.   I prefer desert golf over Florida golf, in most cases.

[Garland Bayley]

...
The benefits to senior citizens (and others) being active, getting healthy and productive far outweigh any damage or inethicality of watering plant life. Maybe we should just let it run into the oceans and cause the seas to rise and flood us all out?
...

I must admit my lack of personal knowledge about the matter, but I envision the vast majority of these so called "active" senior citizens riding in carts.

Redanman, get real! What percentage of senior citizens walk the desert courses?

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
I think the point is that for senior citizens (or anyone else), getting out and golfing with a cart is better than not getting out at all.

You make a fair point about walking in the desert though, at Saguaro yesterday I asked about finding the starter and was told that he would find me and that being that I was the only one out there walking and carrying my bag that I would be easy to spot!

This is on a course that literally has back tees in spots literally 10 paces off the previous greens. Its not the easiest walk, but its as walkable as that property could be. People just choose not to do it (possibly because you're paying for the cart anyway). I've walked 6 of 7 rounds in AZ this year though, so it can be done and is done by those who want to.

[Bryan Izatt]

What do you think of the architectural merit of this "desert" hole compared to its non-desert brethern?

[Mike_Cirba]

It isn't bad.  It's just that you can't hit your foul balls and foolishly trying can lead to a lot of pain and even possible death.

[Mike_Cirba]

Plus, nothing looks stoopiter than a man-made water hazard in the desert.   Use gulches and arroyos, people.   If you have to have a pond for irrigation, stick it behind the tennis courts.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I used to fight desert golf and all it stands for. I now like to venture into that world once a year. I think Desert Forest in Carefree, AZ is a great course by any standard and I would be proud to call it my home club for 365 days a year.

[Jason Topp]

It isn't bad.  It's just that you can't hit your foul balls and foolishly trying can lead to a lot of pain and even possible death.

I do not think a desert course is necesarily more punishing on foul balls.

Is it worse than a pond teeming with alligators?  
Worse than gorse infested dunes and rough on a links course or at Bandon?  
Worse than cliffs?  
Worse than out of bounds fence?  
Worse than a forest, at least one with bears?  
Worse than the non grassed areas of Pine Valley?

I would take my chances out of the desert rather than most of these alternate situations.

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