[Craig Disher]

The full aerial of this course from 1938 is probably too obvious so here's a small corner of it and a recent view of the same area. Obviously a little work has been done to "improve" the Biarritz - if in fact that was the original design - and the bunkering on the other holes. Can anyone identify the course?



            


      

[Gene Greco]

Looks like my home course - Southampton Golf Club

[Craig Disher]

Gene,
It not only looks like Southampton GC, it is!

Do you know why the Raynor/Banks design was replaced? Had much of it survived prior to the renovation?

[Gene Greco]

The entire course was made more "member-friendly" in the 1960s by an architect named Mitchell. As you can see on the 14th, Biarritz, the bunkers guarding the entryway to the green which are about 50 yds short of it were removed as were those parallel to the fairway. I guess people got tired of hitting out of them.

Several other areas of the course were "watered down" but most of the course is intact and the original routing remains.

As with most assaults on classical golf architecture I can only sit back and wonder what it must have been like with all the strategic elements in place. There has not been any real desire on part of the membership to restore the designers original intent. However, there is some quiet talk among a few who would eventually like to see it done.

Could you post the entire aerial? Thanks for posting what you have!  

[Mike_Cirba]

Ah yes...William Mitchell.  Not a bad architect in his own right, he may unfortunately be better known for taking the great 18 holes at Timber Point and turning them into a mediocre 27 than any of his own work during his lifetime.  

[Ed_Baker]

Gene,

I don't have my C&W in front of me, was that William Mitchell from the Boston area?

There was a Lt. William Mitchell a former pilot, that was the superintendent at Charles River for two years following WW II, he then went in to the design business full time, just wondering if its the same guy.

C&W credits Mitchell with a redesign at Charles River although after exhaustive research we can find no evidence of such work. We did find that some fairway bunkers were removed when comparing aireals from 1938 and 1952. From what you say about Southhampton the modus operendi would seem curiously similar. We found and restored the bunkers in the 1996 restoration project.

[Craig Disher]

Gene,
Some very intersting holes e.g. the one on the right with the diagonal water hazard anchored on a bunker. Give me a hint for the routing - which hole nr is the Biarritz?

Looks like Banks had to squeeze some holes onto the irregular piece of land at the bottom of the picture. Perhaps the club didn't own the large empty parcel just to the right of the highway.

[Mike_Sweeney]

CD,

Due to its neighbors (Shinnecock #11 and 12 are just on top of your most recent picture), Southampton GC has to be in a top something list of "Most Overlooked Courses". The 14th as Gene mentions, sits at the top right hand corner of the bottom half of the most recent picture. The fairway bunker is no longer there. The diaginal water hazard is the 8th hole which is a very difficult long Par 4. If I remember correctly, in the Clubhouse, there is an original routing of the course, and # 8 was a Par 5. Now the course is Par 70, with both Par 5's #12 and 17 on the bottom half of your picture sitting next to one another. The greens are always in beautiful shape, and in the heat of the summer, you can always see a little brown on SGC from The Highway

Seth Raynor and I think CB Mac are buried at a cemetary just east of SGC for you trivia buffs.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Gene,

As I was driving by the course this past Saturday I was wondering how much of it had been changed over the years.

Is the original routing intact ?
How would you describe the play of the course ?

How long is it, and does the wind play a big factor in the design and play of the holes ?

[Gene Greco]

   I type this from my office which is across the street from the house Seth Raynor lived in most of his life. And, yes, both he and CB are buried in the Southampton Cemetary just east of Southampton Golf Club.

Sweens is right. Southampton GC has got to be on that list of overshadowed golf courses, in this case by behemoths NGLA and Shinnecock ( which borders SHGC) and others in this land of golfing abundance called the Hamptons.

The wind is a constant at SH with it prevailing out of the SW at 10-15mph each afternoon and has a significant effect on the play of most all the holes. The greens are among the most interesting I've ever putted on and when  cut and rolled for various events throughout the year leave even those from the famous places with jaws dropped. When qualifying rounds for the Open are played here the pros look at the scorecard and laugh at the 6200yds printed on the scorecard. Yet when the days of qualifying are done only a handful have broken par and all wonder where the hell have they been! With these greens if you're above the hole you're dead.

However, with a local membership of 400 the amount of play we get is high so most of the time green speeds are kept at around 9-10. Most all of the superintendants at the local clubs are members here to escape their clubs when time allows them.

CDisher: Thanks for the aerial of the entire course. The land just to the right of the hwy is owned by the Elks club and was offered to the club at some point but not purchased. 1 and 18 are to the left of the photo in the middle lower potion. 2 is the Short (verticaly), 3 Alps is across the hwy also vertically, 4 heads back to the hwy, 5 and 6 border Shinnecock in the upper portion of the photo, 7 par 3, 8 with the diagonal water hazard, 9 par 4 back south R-L in the picture. 10 par 3 faces west, 11 faces east and then you cross the road again to tee it up on 12 the first par 5, and so on.

The routing in the clubhouse above the fireplace is a PROPOSAL from 1968 to reroute some of the course to create two par 5s on the front side, presently at par 34. It is NOT a colored in image of what CDisher has posted above.

Ed: Would love to know myself if it is the same William Mitchell - I bet it is.

Patrick: The routing is intact and the course played beautifully this past summer. Having had the drought left the course playing firm and fast throughout. Play is also fast with regard to pace of play as all members are expected to finish play in under 3 hours 30 minutes or letters are sent for repeated violations.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ed/Gene;

It IS the same William Mitchell.  

[Dan Kelly]

Just had a vision!

I offer it to any architect with the nerve to do it!

In memory of Jeff Brauer's giant's-footprint bunkers (one
foot bunker; four toes bunkers) at Giants Ridge, in Biwabik,
Minnesota:

Look at the upper-right of the second photo posted in this thread. See that bunker? Looks just like one of those
Goldfish crackers, doesn't it?

And now the vision: a series of fish-shaped bunkers, alongside a fairway, starting fairly near the tee and extending way, way, way down both sides of the landing area -- angled slightly inward, so that they increasingly pinch the fairway, until the farthest ones are almost cross bunkers. The bunker nearest the tee would be the biggest -- with each successive bunker slightly smaller.

See what I'm getting at? A cartoon! An imitation of the famous drawing of the biggest fish eating a smaller fish eating a smaller fish eating a smaller fish eating the smallest fish.

The New Yorker, years ago, had that array in a cartoon. Each of the fish had a thought bubble:

The biggest one was thinking: The world is perfectly just.

The middle one was thinking: The world is a place of imperfect justice.

The little one was thinking: There's no justice in the world!

So: The farther down the hole you hit your drive, the harder it will be to avoid the hazard. I love the idea of a golfer bombing a huge drive almost down the middle, catching the last of the fish-shaped bunkers, and thinking: "There's no justice!"

Where's Desmond Muirhead when we need him?

[Mike_Cirba]

Dr. Katz to Dan Kelly's room, please...

Dr. Katz to Dan Kelly's room

 

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