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Tommy_Naccarato

Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« on: March 03, 2007, 03:23:07 AM »
Recently, I was fortunate to attend the Golf Industry Show in Anaheim and while it was great to see old friends, meet new ones and further develop friendships throughout the country if not the world, I was somewhat perplexed after reading the recent article In Golf Course Industry magazine by one Jeffrey D. Brauer of Dallas, Texas. (It's a great magazine by the way!)

First, Jeff attacks my friend Geoff Shackelford quite indignantly, but fortunately doesn't actually name him in the article itself. But more it's the issue which Jeffrey D. Brauer expounds upon which I think bares the most scrutiny; because after all, Jeffrey D. Brauer is a professional. So while it maybe out of my element to comment--I'm not a professional--nothing more then an enthusiast, I can honestly say this is the entire reasoning why most modern golf courses suffer when compared to their predecessors.


The Catch Basin


Most of today's modern designs seemingly are featuring more and more catch basins, and frankly speaking, I think they are not only unsightly, most of them don't work worth a damn as most architects route a lot of water through them and they stay wet way too long. Not only are they usually placed near green sites, I've seen some courses with hollows literally lining the fairways--each one of them with their own individual catch basin/drain routed to some magical pond. Granted many ecologically challenged sites require water reclamation and purification, most of these are on sites which don't require it and in one ironic case in example the very same architect's vast bodies of work in that area since then didn't even use it. In the article Jeff points out the circumstances as if it was definitive proof the old guys didn't have a problem designing golf courses, only today's architects are faced with those challenges. (Mind you George Crump was probably a mortal victim because of what he put into his golf course--his whole heart & sou. But that doesn't count does it Jeff?)

The below image shows a perfect example of a catch basin--and not a very deep one, but more, a thick one-- whose sole purpose is to route water coming off of the hill which is being properly diverted by the back lip of the sand trap next to it. Almost by modern industry rule, many architects of today will use this and divert the water coming off of the hill under the green or under that bunker to a drain which more then likely empties out on the low land below. Most of them will use even deeper catch basins, and frankly this is where the old guys win each and every time. In my opinion they did it with less and created much more.



Still, the best way to describe these catch basins are usually disguised horribly as grassy bunkers. They are anything but that and frankly speaking when playing from them, the ability to spin a ball and grab a down hill lie on the green is pretty easy. Many of the great architects we salute here on this website, utilize different types of surface drainage to areas that divert the water even more then shown in this image, while it isn't the best example, more of a handy one showing the best of both worlds. Certain architects who like to utilize faux-punchbowl green concepts usually have to depend on catch basins with pipes routing them to the low points beyond, simply because they have no where else to go.

An example:


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2007, 03:23:33 AM »
Surface Drainage--A timeless method of influencing the direction of drain water

I think it's a common misconception of many modern architects that the old guys didn't know how to make water drain. I've seen it and I believe in it and the proof I offer, Riviera and Bel Air. Both of these sites have drainage going to one focal point--the low point of the property. If your ever at Riviera #6, go look to the far extreme right towards the ocean and you'll see an old iron drain that Billy Bell himself specified. o can find one at the bottom of the southwest end of the Arizona Biltmore and used to be able to find one emptying into the old reservoir which is now the driving range at Bel Air too.

Recently we had a thread asking if most GCA aficionados could tell good shaping from natural lay of the land. The response were dismal at best, as most couldn't nor cared to. (time prevented me from further elaborating, but hopefully this thread will suffice) I can only hope that most of you, the next time your at your faovrite course designed by some old dead guy, look at the differences of how these features were used to divert water without the use of a underground pipe.

You see, I think this is the certain charm of our timeless classics--how the lay of the land; it's features and for the most part the ability to drain water from these features that all define the golf hole itself. Getting back to Riviera and Bel Air as examples, these courses have one direct drain point, all of them obviously down their descriptive canyons which are ingeniously fed from all sorts of different points from around the golf course. Usually high points from around the golf hole and features themselves.

 These barranca/arroyo/creek-like features are the involved strategies. They help make these courses great or respected or whatever Jeff Brauer wants to call it. How are you going to do that with a pipe that is buried in the ground? That grassy Hollow which feeds that pipe is for me, unsightly, unnatural and just plain foolish in what it costs to build it from shaping to putting in the ABS plastic drain which will get broken the first mower, golf cart or 6 iron that makes contact with it. These pipes also clog with leaves, branches and other debris. This is usually when the Golf Course Superintendent would love ot get a hold of Mr. Brauer for specing that particular type of drainage.

But the point here is not that they are without merit when they are needed, it's the reliance on these collection areas, becoming an architect's best friend so-to-speak. There are just so many architects using them nowadays. they just use them WAY too much and way too freely. The bad side to this is that this drainage adds to the cost of building an affordable links, let alone an intelligent one.

Dr. Brauer implies, The advent of PVC drain pipe makes installation cheaper then ever, raising it's cost/benefit ratio to where it makes no sense not to use it.....

This is precisely the point where I think many modern golf architects lose sight of the art of designing golf courses artistically, scientifically and just using plain common sense. The cheapest way to get good drainage is not to use PVC pipe just because it and it's installation cost are a benefit, (the entire gist of his article) it's only affordable to use it when it needs to be used. The cost of labor to install which requires a crew to not only assemble lengthy stretches of PVC pipe, a man on a tractor/backhoe to utilize a trenching device which actually pulls it in, or if it's installed by a crew by hand is in no way comparable in price. AS IN THERE IS NO BENEFIT! (Mr. Brauer can argue this as much as he wants, because I have an electrical career full of trenches and pipes which to compare!) figure this for the amount of catch basins per hole and multiply it by 18, not counting a driving range or practice areas where they use them too, well your talking a lot of money when compared to a man on a bulldozer who is artfully creating surface drainage that has been designed by an architect who knows what he is doing, and after all, he's going to be out there shaping the ground anyway.

It's all common sense.

While I applaud Jeff Brauer's abilities to discern what's best and speculates what he thinks our famous great would have done today, I can assure you common sense did get the best of them after a Great Depression and a World War when financial survival mattered most. That much is for sure. Economy simply killed them and their spirit till our great architects of today who studied and emulated them brought them back alive. Look at the top ten of the Golfweek Modern list and tell me different.

While Jeff Brauer maintains that the owners and bankers know the value of good drainage to a golf course business plan, then please explain to me why so many new courses have closed because the property became more valuable then the risk of building the golf course and the costs involved?

The rest of Jeff's article is filled with the typical challenges of 'what we face against what the golden age guys did'-type of scenarios which I grow increasingly tired of with each new article, some of it may have merit, but only if you plan on having a golf course that will be about as natural as Anna Nicole Smith's breast--with houses on it. But still, I shudder to think of the time Geoff, the creator of the very article which Mr. Brauer criticizes, explained to me some years ago, when he was working at Riviera, and still in the somewhat good graces of the Watanabe family, he looked outside and saw it raining. He looked to see like he had done so many rainstorms before how the water was running through those thoughtfully constructed barrancas, but on this occasion, shortly after Poly Vinyl Chloride piping had been installed in those barrancas, that the water now started coagulating and wasn't moving like it once did before. The last time I was at the Nissan Open, it was raining and it too was the first thing that caught my eye.

George Thomas, welcome home....

No catch basins here...


Here either...

Joe Hancock

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2007, 08:46:43 AM »
Tommy,

What kills me about your examples is the fact that these catch basins were deemed neccessary in low rainfall areas. If the turf and the design can't handle a few inches of rain per year, I'm fairly certain that catch basins aren't the remedy.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

wsmorrison

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2007, 08:57:20 AM »
The renovations to CC Harrisburg included creating mounds and swales in the fairways and on the peripheries.  There are so many drains there now and on land that is very rolling with steep falloffs.  The redesigns obliterated all the natural sheet drainage that was used and other surface drainage techniques.  The proliferation of all the mounding and drains on a classic course has a detrimental effect on the overall experience.

As for a modern course, for all the interest and creativity at Tobacco Road, there are drains everywhere, including the bunkers!  I guess I would rather see a bit less manufactured features even if they look and play nice because the multitude of drains on that site clearly indicate that too little surface drainage techniques were used and there was an over-reliance on expensive sub-surface solutions.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2007, 08:58:00 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Eric Franzen

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2007, 09:01:27 AM »
Modern golf course drainage rules!

Well, at least here in Sweden where the few courses that have invested in surface drainage with catch baisins can extend their season with up to six to ten weeks more of golf in decent conditions. Most of our courses are built on quite flat topography so give or take a few more collection areas that distorts the esthetic value... it is still a very benificial solution in our climate.

Joe Hancock

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2007, 09:08:33 AM »
Eric,

That's an important point. There are situations (climate, soil conditions, topography) that dictate the need to get surface water  into drain pipes as quickly as possible. Especially during the grow in process in areas with the potential for heavy rainfall events, the removal of water under the surface is important.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2007, 11:30:38 AM »
Quote
Or are you saying that some modern designers are choosing unrealistic routing plans and backing them up with drainage basins galore to get away with certain green sites etc. rather than trying to work with the land a bit more to utilize natural drainage flow such as Riviera via its barrancas?  

Arbs,
Yes, exactly. I knew you knew what I was talking about! ;)

As Crazy Joe points out, when you see these things in areas like Palm Desert, which is the first area I think of with extreme over-use of a catch basin, one has to wonder what some golf architects are thinking.

Eric,
As I stated, the point here is not that they are without merit when they are needed, but when they are overused. But I do think it allows architects to build greens and fairways on land not meant for golf, which I don't think is always a good thing. It sets a precedence for bad land for bad golf. I've got one less then 1500 yards from here that is a perfect example. No one wants to play there.

Some architects like to say, "Hey, look what we did!"

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2007, 01:46:40 PM »
Tommy,

First of all, it was good seeing you, and I was sorry you couldn't stay for my presentation, or for that matter, that you didn't call me back with instructions to your get together, since I didn't have mine, and I wanted to go.

Second, I have great respect for Geoff, have bought all his books, and read all of his columns, many of which I agree with, but some of which I don't.  Part of this column is to generate some controversy between magazines and columnists. Thanks for forwarding part of the GCI agenda!  

So whatever Geoff bashing you percieve is all journalistic, and certainly not personal.  In fact, he actually tempered his piece with some good technical qualifications which made it harder to respond directly.  

I am getting ready for a trip right now, so I haven't digested all of your posts, but in the quick read, I really do see drainage as separate from bad routing.  That's exactly the type of generic, modern gca is bad comment I was trying to deflect.  If you are in housing, you have drainage problems.  If you site a hole in a valley, you have drainage problems.  Not so much that you wouldn't site the hole there, but enough to have to deal with it.  Providing for drainage is an evolving art, and in response to experiences of end users (ie supers) turf demands, etc.

Your photo of the soft basin area near the green is a perfect example - I doubt you could maintain turf on the green to the degree desired today if you let that slope drain right across the green.  And, if you picked up that water with a swale, you would tear out more of the native area they were trying to save.  Its a choice, and frankly, probably a good one.

As to why there are catch basins in Palm Springs - even the nuisance water from excess irrigation (required for overseeding if nothing else) or surrounding houses causes problems if allowed to run long distances.  No one at those courses will accept driving carts through or playing out of soggy fw areas.  So, drainage has evolved to meet market demand and current situations.  Wishing that there were no carts, irrigation, higher demands doesn't cut it when designing a golf course in most cases.

As to your examples of Riv and Bel Aire, I submit that they, like most courses have all had drainage (perhaps french drains instead of basins) added over the years to improve them.  If the So Cal courses have less, its climate related, which should be factored in, of course.  My column was not intended only for readers in your area.  Ask any super how much drainage he installs every year and whether or not he would have preferred it had been installed during initial construction.

I never implied that Thomas and those guys weren't great, and its not an either or choice.  In fact, I think the common thread of all eras of gca is that we do what is best given our problem sets and potential solutions.  

I will say this, if you were in the position of building a golf course, rather than being an internet critic, and you got criticised because your first course didn't drain well, and you wanted to get hired again, I believe you would learn over time the value of drainage, drainage, drainage, you might (eventually) have a different opinion.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2007, 02:15:47 PM »
Tommy,

Again, thanks for being a reader of my column!

I looked at the green photo you provided again.  Yes, the water is diverted around the bunker properly.  From there, the choice is continue a swale around the left of the green and between the green and the cart path walk up (or down in this case) to the green.

The result would be an unsightly and typically soggy swale that every golfer (I am presuming this course is carts only, or is hilly enough that most would take carts) would have to walk through.  Each footstep (and mower pass) would create another dent, which would hold more water, which would lead to more problems.  

So again, there are reasons the gca made that choice.  It improves the presentation of the course, the playability, etc.  It does give up exactly 1 SF of the green site area (out of about 30,000 SF, or 0.000033% of the land area) on the back left of the green where fewer shots tend to land to accomplish better drainage.  I submit that out of 30,000 golfers each year, only one would find there ball on that cb.

What would be your alternative when placing a green in this situation?

BTW, I do agree that basins in landing areas and this near greens should be reduced to the minimum.  While they aren't as big a distraction in fact as the perception of them may be, they aren't natural.

And, with another example of how tech and prices affect design style, with the recent run up in pvc pipe prices (affected by oil prices) have retooled some recent designs for more surface flow, fewer basins as a result.  When dealing with moderatly flat sites, I remember the old bridge engineering axiom that the "cost of the piers should equal the cost of the spans" for maximum cost efficiencies.  Recently, the cost of a bit more grading has come back to the cost of a bit more pipe.

I also agree with you that a flaw of modern drainage is that catch basins get clogged.  In engineering terms, they are often the limiter of flow capacity, even before considering leaves.  If you consulted the engineering charts, you would find that the 12" basins often speced by the gca are really undersized for the pipe capacity.  Unfortunatley, that means they have to be increased to be effective, and thus, a bigger eyesore, if you consider them that.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2007, 02:54:42 PM »
Sean,

Thanks for the support!  Of course, you support me now, but if the Stars meet the Wings in the playoffs next month...... ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2007, 03:19:17 PM »
Jeff,
I did in fact try calling you but didn't receive an answer back. In fact, I can't remember who it was said that the two of you were going to another party in Costa Mesa or somewhere like that and were going to be pressed to get back there in time. I just assumed it was either bad cell coverage, the torrential downpour that occured or simply you were like me, trying to get all of the ducks in a row. In fact, Brad Klein was with me when I tried calling you.

It was also unfortunate that I had to leave your presentation because I had to meet Emmy for a production meeting at 3:00. I wanted to stay the entire Remodel University which ended at 5:00, then get everyone on the same page for dinner at 7:30pm. It was a busy day, which I know you can attest to.

By the way, I thought your topic was by far the hardest to cover and from the way it started, you at least brought some humor to it.

Now to the meat & potatoes of the post: (and I'm glad of your participation in this because I think it's something we don't talk about nearly enough here on GCA--golf course architecture theory.)

As far as the first picture was intended, yes, it was an obvious good choice where to take a drain pipe, but more is the green in the right location or is it shaped more for what they could get away with then what was more natural? Once again, the idea of posting this particular image was to show the affects of a catch basin and where it was obviously routed.

I can't find the image at the moment, but I have one where it's a drawing by Charles Ambrose, late of the former first half of the 1900's British Golf Illustrated. Ambrose was for me at least, a keen observant on the golf architecture scene back in the Golden Age. At least in Great Britain he was. He respected what American architects were doing abroad and further liked the comparative nature of what architects were doing in England. He had a deft hand in drawing his examples and one of them he showed the importance of surface drainage using Max Behr's narrative. (He also did one where Max was not so much critical of the Bottle Hole at Sunningdale, but more, offering a solution with less bunkering, making it more affordable yet with no loss of strategy)

In Ambrose's drawing, he showed the importance of surface drainage and but more important the placement of the green complex itself, that sometimes it doesn't go where it looks like it obviously goes--at least in terms of getting the water moving away and around it. You bring up an interesting point about housing and golf and the need for catch basins. My question is if this is over-kill?

Another resource in The Architectural Side of Golf which clearly shows surface drainage in many of Simpson's drawings.

Here is an example from Windows Live, a course in La Quinta where the over use of catch basins are obvious. I've been there and I've seen it in person and on this particular hole as well as the rest of them the catch basins are everywhere to the point of ridiculousness. In this oblique, look at each turn of airway, in and out and in those hollows which are barely noticeable is a drain/catch basin. This particular golf course is the epitome of not only golf in the Coachella Valley, but bad golf everywhere.

http://tinyurl.com/2f2r2x

As far as an engineering accomplishment, yes it's impressive that architects and engineers prove to themselves on a daily basis that water runs downhill. The ironic thing about this golf site is one time existed some sand dunes, albeit small ones, but it's just across the street from a site that was once capable of being the greatest golf course in Southern California. Unfortunately that is now an impossibility unless the earth should ever flood again....

Once again, Jeff, the problem here isn't about me being an internet critic--the point here is that you advocate this as being the solution without taking into account what it ultimately does to the design. that's what your article states, or at least how I'm reading into it. I make no bones in my opening that I'm not a professional when it comes to designing golf courses, but I do think I have some experience in construction as far as costs, thus my surprise when you say that cost ratios make it affordable, when to me it's just the opposite. They add a considerable amount to it. What scares me even more is that you say bankers and course owners see this very same need, which I find to be completely false, and the market for building new courses proves that.

I've given you a few examples Jeff, showing the lack of underground drainage, the incessant thinking that a golf course needs to spend money that ultimately adds to the cost of a green fee, in an age where just attracting people to get on to a golf course might be the biggest issue of all.

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2007, 03:27:21 PM »
I agree with many of Tommy's points. And Jeff's.

Interestingly, many modern courses suffer from very poor choices relative to site selection. However, this is a reality of many modern golf developments and developers — and needs. At Coldwater near Phoenix, for example, we strategically placed 20+ catch basins (big ones!) to drain the extremely flat (5 feet of fall over 2 miles) site. To say the catch basins are the problem is obviously not correct — they enable the course and allow it to exist!

At a course I visited (and Tommy has been there, too, I might add), Max Behr choose to route a course along a pleasant barranca. A natural and striking experience...until, of couse, the barrance became a raging floodway and destroyed most of the lower holes. I don't think Behr or the modern solutions to drainage there were — either one —  very good. One was a waste of money, the other requires a concrete channel that is hardly pleasing to look at or play across.

One might argue that the Swilcan Burn is a forced design on a links...but it works for drainage.

Or that Pete Dye's Harbour Town waste area at the 16th is contrived...but it works for drainage.

Or that Oakmont's ditches are in appropriate...but they work for drainage.






« Last Edit: March 03, 2007, 06:09:54 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Steve Lang

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2007, 04:50:32 PM »
 8)

Amaizin PASSION for drainage.. where did this really come from?  

As one that routinely deals with drainage off paved surfaces, I find this discussion missing some essential water balance thought.  

IN - OUT = ACCUMULATION

Where is the discussion of rainfall rates, soils, percolation, and seasonal water table?   One can't compare sites in gumbo versus Sand Hills, or The elevated Retreat versus level flat lands.  

That Tobacco Road needs drainage supplements in the midst of the sand hills is more an issue of elevation change in the old sand quarry to a discharge point..  a little more severe than that at The Pit..

Its not unusual to see 8,000 sqft paved areas, with 6 inches of fall from border to catch basin, sized 3ft x 3 ft x 3ft, when the area has to receive 4 inches of rain per hour.  I am always amazed that catch bains on courses appear to be so small when drainage areas are so much greater.. and a logical design might account for fully saturated conditions and nearly full runoff..  but design is not always rational in the face of budgets , eh?

Pipes at minimum slopes can carry quite a bit of water if you allow them..

PIPE      Capacity         
DIAMETER   Min Slope   at Min Slope         
(IN)   ft/kft   gpm   gph   ft3/hr   m³/hr
48   1.0   17760   1065600   142460   4036.4
42   1.0   12490   749400   100187   2838.6
36   1.0   8339   500340   66890   1895.2
30   1.2   5800   348000   46524   1318.2
27   1.3   4770   286200   38262   1084.1
24   1.5   3530   211800   28316   802.3
21   1.8   2720   163200   21818   618.2
20   1.9   2450   147000   19652   556.8
18   2.1   2000   120000   16043   454.5
16   2.4   1570   94200   12594   356.8
15   2.6   1390   83400   11150   315.9
14   2.8   1210   72600   9706   275.0
12   3.5   900   54000   7219   204.5
10   4.1   610   36600   4893   138.6
8   5.4   400   24000   3209   90.9
6   6.0   200   12000   1604   45.5



Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Joe Hancock

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2007, 04:55:01 PM »
Steve,

If we don't tell the viewers at home what a measured amount of rainfall over a certain area equals in gallons, the pipe size and flow chart you provided means nothing.

But, well spoken like an engineer.  ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2007, 05:11:22 PM »
Steve,
I've learned to listen... Go ahead give us more!

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2007, 06:11:57 PM »
Steve — Since golf courses (most) are not prone to "fall down and collapse", drainage is far less sized than for buildings and urban areas. Usually, if a course can adequately drain in 24 hours after a large event, the owner is happy. The wisdom is that no one will be playing immediately after a large event anyway.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2007, 06:12:26 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike_Young

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2007, 07:31:06 PM »
Tommy,
IMHO drainage is so site specific that it cannot be discussed as to golf courses in general.....
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2007, 07:57:33 PM »
Mike,
The 5th hole at Longshadow, how great is that greensite?!?!?! ;)

JESII

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2007, 08:01:40 PM »
Tommy,
IMHO drainage is so site specific that it cannot be discussed as to golf courses in general.....
Mike

Mike,

Can a general philosophy be discussed?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2007, 08:22:22 PM »
Sully,
As Mike states, that it is site specific, like you I think it can be discussed and I also think that's it's more then site specific, it situation specific and I state that in my post. Simply put, when the situation calls for it..

As I have highlighted to Mike, on one of his own golf holes he utilized surface drainage perfectly when the situation called for it by locating a fall-away green site near a hazard in terms of drainage and the hazard itself--to me that's golf architecture. It's a really good golf hole too. The routing of Mike's course takes you over a lot of land similar to that of Shinnecock, only it has some gulley's or creek beds which to build upon (the architecture, not to build on them) While Mike did have a collection area or two, they weren't overtly over the top. At least not in terms of what I think is over the top. Mind you this is a course that will have you seeing similarities between Pete Dye, only for me at least, it's a bit more hospitable to interesting play. (meaning less punishing, as I find most Dye courses penal to some extent.)


JESII

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2007, 08:38:58 PM »
Tommy, Mike, everyone...

I'm way on the outside looking in on this topic. The thread, though, has opened my eyes to what I disliked about Glen Mills (here in the Philly suburbs) the one time I played there. I liked alot of the holes, and was impressed with the course because of an extremely difficult piece of land, but could not quite verbalize what I didn't like. It was "over-engineered". Several steep hillsides coming down to a fairway tilted back into the hill with dozens of drainage points along the base.


As to this "general philosophy", I guess it's like all things. Everyone has the set of skills they excel at and also have their weaknesses. In that light, there are architects (I am sure) that do not see the flow of water across the surface as instrumental in developing a golf course and therefor do not put their full effort toward finding a way to make it work. When there is another option (catch basins and PVC) that can be satisfactory the motivation to find an answer is not necessary.

Huntingdon Valley is a study in this surface draining engineering if you ask me. TN, you've got an open invitation, you know where to find me.

Greg Cameron

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2007, 08:45:31 PM »
Tommy N,Here in the Fraser Valley of B.C(pugeot sound too I bet),we start growing webs between our fingers and feathers on our backs about Nov 1,they recede approx.may,so drainage is CRITICAL,especially as we play 12 months a year.I'm guessing your arguement is against the contrived grass hollow look.The older courses here did not have this look,yet in places I have come across 3 sided cedar planking(top and sides only) that a older member will say " I think that was installed in the 1930s when so and so farmed here".Now when we can afford it we import 6 inches of sand  to "cap" the surface for the better year round turf conditions,even costing 1 million $.Certainly too many basins are contrived,yet wouldn't the old masters have done more if they had resources and were expecting 50,000 rounds 12 months a year?I once heard shaping described as drainage,drainage,drainage....

Mike_Young

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2007, 09:21:13 PM »
TN,
Glad you like #5.
I'm Craving to Tamales.....and I am here in Nicaragua and can't find one.
As much as I dislike using catch basins I have one course where we used over 300.  We had no choice if we were to get a permit.
And sure we can discuss drainage in general terms but I don't think we should define an architect's philosophy by his drainage techniques on a course that may be a less than favorable site.......
I also think that sometimes more catch basins are used than one may think but the architect hides them into the rough areas instead of having the water come to them in visible areas......I think, and I may be wrong, there were some catch basins n the roghs at PD.....and I think tey served their purpose well.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Gary Daughters

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2007, 09:24:01 PM »
Mike,

You designing courses for the Sandanistas?

Longshadow #5
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Adam Sherer

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Re:Modern Golf Course Drainage Is Bad
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2007, 11:44:08 PM »
Surface Drainage--A timeless method of influencing the direction of drain water
a golf course that will be about as natural as Anna Nicole Smith's breast--with houses on it.


A week in the grave and already disrespected.


The modern philosophy on golf course design and maintenance is the 3 "D"s: drainage, drainage, and drainage. At least that is what I have heard from noted superintendents and architects.

Fownes was an engineer and had a solid understanding of hydrology, that is part of Oakmonts charm (ditches, greens sloping away, etc)
During the recent renovation of the course, we found ample terra cota pipes underground supporting the fact that he used drainage back then (and if he were around today he surely would be using PVC and ADS pipe)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2007, 11:45:47 PM by Adam_Sherer »
"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

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