[Jeff Goldman]

Played WS this weekend, and I have some of the same questions about the turf I had when I played a few months ago.  Possibly because of the heat and not a lot of rain, the fairways are really thin in a lot of places.  There is also a whole lot of visible sand under foot.  In fact, on many holes, especially 5,6,14,15, 16 and 18, drives landed with a quite visible puff of sand in the fairway.  On 5, my third shot, from about 100 yard in the middle of the fairway, was so much on sand with little grass that I thought it might play almost like a fairway bunker.  Not a lot of roll in the fairways either, I thought because of the sand and that it was fairly soft.  Does anyone know what the story is with the fescue?  I recall earlier discussions about the viability of the fescue, but has anyone heard about real trouble up there (or, to the contrary, is that how it is supposed to be?  I don't think so).

That said, our caddy pointed out a bunch of changes to the course in preparation for the PGA.  fairways have been narrowed significantly, especially on 6 (I think), the relatively short hole with the carry, where anything over or left of the bunker on the left is in the junk now, and 10, where the rough has been moved up close to the top of the pot bunker in the fairway.  I also saw some new tees.  The tee on 1 for the PGA will be at the edge of the putting green, making it about 465 or so, and there appear to be 2 new tees (or ones I didn't see last time) on 17, on below the usual tees near the lake, and another one to the right and behind the usual tees, which would make the hole play over 250-260 yds (according to the caddy).  I also saw 2 championship tees for 18, well below the regular back tees, which may make the hole play a little like 8 at pebble beach, with a blind tee shot up and a choice of how close to the edge of the cliff you want to get.  The difference is that there is a big carry over junk to the good part of the fairway, maybe 250-260 yds.  A couple of other holes appear to have championship tees off to one side and below the regular tees, also leaving somewhat blind shots that appear to head to the junk.  I guess that is how they got to 7500 yds for the tournament.  If the wind blows, it could be fun.  Incidently, this was my third time playing the course, and the fascination only grows.  Take a yardage book though, because the caddies generally give only one "safe" target, which removes some of the strategy, even for a 9-14 hdcp (depending on the day) like me.  The book lets you see the hole and decide yourself what to do.

                             Jeff Goldman

[Matt Kardash]

i have a dumb question..Is it the club that makes all these changes on their own or does Dye himself tinker with the course?..now that all the holes are 5 miles long, does that leave the course with any short holes left? Becuase if i remember there are(or were) a couple of shortish par 4s

[Tim Weiman]

Jeff:

I'm curious about your comments on #10. Can you provide more detail on the rough/fairway lines? Are you saying one needs to clear that fairway pot bunker to reach fairway?

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I played the course last year and like you absolutely love it. Sorry to hear about the turf issues and how the fescue seems not be responding.

Do the new tees provide a much different angle of play or it is for the most part just the addition of length? For example, if new tees are added to #17 and #18 you can influence play plenty just by moving the directional angle in any one direction.

Be most curious to your comments.

Thanks!

P.S. I'd be most interested in seeing if the PGA really has the b*lls to play the Straits Course at maximum length and not simply wimp out.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
My feeling is that they won't play all the way back.  It would send the wrong message and the PGA doesn't want to make courses longer any more than any of us do.  

Regarding the course itself, I like it but I'm not a real big fan.  I think it's amazing what Pete did there but it's hard to copy nature.  Actually I think the dunes at Twisted might look even better than at WS.  The difference, however, is that they are more for asthetic purposes at Twisted where as at WS they play a much more strategic role in the holes.  I have it in my personal Top 100 but barely!

By the way, the conditions Jeff talked about don't bother me.  Obviously I'd like to see it rock hard but if the grass is thin and the place is ragged around the edges, great.  It's supposed to be links style golf right!  Problem is that golfers here expect well manicured green grass when they are playing $200 or something like that for green fees!
Mark

[Member of a Dye course]

Reply to Matt Kardash -

I am a long-time member of a famous Pete Dye course and I can say without a doubt Mr. Dye pretty much makes the changes on his own because there is not a membership around that will say no to him! Everybody believes that he knows exactly what he is doing when really he has used our course as his own little lab experiment for years. And we have the dirt, bulldozers, lakes, etc. to prove it. . .

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

I hear what you're saying but I have to know how you view Pete Dye in general and a number of his courses specifically. I will say clearly that Pete Dye is the finest designer in the second half of the 20th century. His contributions changed golf in such a clear and convincing fashion with a host of his designs. Just look at all of those who formerly worked for him at one time or another.

I would clearly include Whistling Straits in my personal top 100 -- let's just say somewhere between #60 and #80. Your point about plenty of the mounding is also true.

Nonetheless, I just wish the PGA would stop treating the players with tender gloves when it's not necessary. I'm not advocating that the PGA in '04 be played two steps from the back on every hole but it's long overdue for the top players in the world to play a PGA where a little bit of FEAR is put back into the equation. The Straits, if prepared and set-up properly, can do this and if Mother Nature steps up a notch then only the strongest and most dynamic players will be their at the end.

It's time for the PGA to be more than a high profile tour event. It's a major championship. Let the boys have to GRIND with holes that don't simply fall under the drive and wedge pattern.

[Mike_Cirba]

Just a couple of quick points...

I agree with Mark that the dunes at Twisted Dune are better looking than those at Whistling...

I love the Ocean Course at Kiawah much better than Whistling, although it's a very exciting and interesting golf course.

Matt is correct in pointing out that Pete Dye is THE most influential and probably the greatest golf course architect of the last half century, without question.  

I'd love to see the tees played back at WS as well, provided the fairways are wide (not narrowed with rough as someone mentioned above) and the course is playing firm and fast.  

Rough at Whistling?  C'mon!  That's a joke....I'd much rather see lots of room to play, and lots of length to cover, because it could lead to some of the most exciting long-iron play we've seen in a major.  

As far as conditioning, who needs grass on a links course?

And finally, Matt...I owe you an email, but life has been hectic lately.  Hope I'm not too late.  

[Michael_Choate]

I played WS last month and had  the same reaction to the turf.  I think it should have been better by this point.  An architect friend of mine thinks that by next summer things should be filling in or they may have a problem for the PGA.  My caddy told me that Dye is on site quite a bit tinkering with the ocurse.

[RJ_Daley]

I don't know the answer to the turf question.  But, I understand the fairways were intended to be a rye-fescue polystand.  Rye has reportedly had more disease trouble recently around the country.  And, fescue reportedly becomes more susceptable to disease in high relative humidity.  That humid and hot condition was prevalent throughout August in these parts.  So perhaps the turf got sick so to speak.  I wish a super in the area could report on this and clear the matter up as to the sparse turf growth at WS.  Perhaps if that is the case, a turf conversion is in the works to overseed and change the turf species to a monostand of jus fescue or perhaps go the way of the Irish course and just turn it over to bent.  I dont know if any of this is true.  But, they obviously will have to decide and commit to the turf species soon.  

I totally agree with Mike that the more interesting approach would be to widen the fairways but play the full length with firm and fast even if they have to all but turn off the water for weeks before the tournament.  A bounding fast and firm WS in wind would be very interesting indeed.

[Mark_Fine]

Once we hit the 7500 yard number, 8000 won't be far behind.  There is plenty of interest (and fear) on that golf course if its set up to play fast.  They don't need 7500 yards.  Let them shoot 12 under, so be it.

Matt, I've always loved Pete Dye and have said so many times in the past.  Many of his courses are on my personal favorites list!  His courses make me think far more than any other modern designer!
Mark

[willhammer (Guest)]

I am told that the courses native soil is a heavy clay and that the course was supposed to have been "plated" with 12" of a sand/peat mix. But toward finishing Pete changed his mind many times on specific grades and used the sand/peat mix to change those grades. The result was some areas with as little as 3" of sand and others with as much as 3' of sand or more. Those of you who understand how water moves through different soils can see this can lead to drainage issues and therefore turf problems. I must add that I have no first hand knowledge of this and have never seen course, but was told this by a very knowledgeable source.

[RJ_Daley]

Wow Will,

If that is true, Herb must not be too happy about the price tag... :-/  But it certainly makes sense that that is what could have happened.

[Jim_H]

There is a concept in financial theory--which I'm sure many of you know--called "beta."  It measures the volitility of a stock compared to the rest of the market.  I think that Pete Dye has the highest "beta" of any golf course architect.  Whistling Straits is great; PGA West is the worst; The Golf Course in Columbus is great; many of his others are terrible.  Any theories on why this is so, if you agree?

[Matt_Ward]

Play the Straits as mentioned by a few other folks here -- widen the fairways and keep the rough from being the standard operating H-A-Y you see many BO's.

Stretch the course out and if at all possible get the course as rock firm as one can sensibly do.

I see no reason why the course cannot be played at 7,500 yards when the boys are banging drivers on fescue short cut fairways.

Remember -- the PGA is a MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIP not a GLORIFIED TOUR EVENT.

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
Aren't you concerned about setting a precedent? WS is a sea level course.  What implications will there be seeing the PGA played on a 7500 yard golf course?  When they go back to 7200 yards next year, people will be calling it chip and putt.  
Mark

[A_Clay_Man]

PGA West the worst? Boy that's credible ha Why not explain why you feel that is so?

I like the HAY look. Give these guys a chance to prove they're the best from all situations, especially adverse ones.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

What precedent?

Last I checked the PGA is a MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIP!

Clearly, the golf course will be set-up to handle the weather conditions so that it's not outrageous. There is nothing magical about a course yardage -- so it plays 7,500 yards or thereabouts. This is the big leagues -- this is where golfers are trying to place their name in the history books.

The PGA should be more than just a glorified tour event. Make the boys sweat, make them grind and where possible let's see more variety in shotmaking. The Straits Course can do this.

Mark, when guys are hitting tee shots 280 yards I believe it's important to have a few holes that are near 500 yards that will call upon them to hit long irons and even woods on occasion. I almost fell off my chair when I heard all the whining about how long and tough Bethpage was.
Clearly, adjustments should have been made to the back tees on a few holes during Friday's bad weather.

The boys on tour have feast days on many courses throughout the year. If you want your name on the Wannamaker Trophy it's time to show what you've really got.

I like the idea on having the fairways play wide to encourage full use of the driver. Don't mirror the US Open set-up with rough so high and thick that all of the players follow the conservative route and use 1-irons and 3-woods and the like on most tees (see Muirfield as an example).

Jim H:

It would help if you could share with the group any particulars on your thoughts on Pete Dye. I can easily list Dye's best 10 and it will clearly be far significantly head of existing architects today. Pete's contribution to golf design speaks for itself. If you believe otherwise I'd like to see your detailed reasoning.

Not every course an architect produces is a masterpiece. Pete has had his share of dogs. However, when you look at the courses of high vintage quality he's designed it's clear his impact will be felt long after he departs from the scene.

A few of note, in no particular order, include ...

The Golf Club
Whistling Straits
The Honors Course
Harbour Town
PGA West / Stadium
TPC at Sawgrass / Stadium
Crooked Stick
Casa de Campo / Teeth of the Dog
Oak Tree
Kiawah / The Ocean Course
Pete Dye Golf Club
Long Cove

[Jim_H]

Matt--
Thanks for your comments.  I have played nearly all of the 12 Dye courses you name, and I am a fan of all of them except PGA West.  I was not knocking his outstanding work, but rather commenting on some very bad courses he had done--and wondering how the same person could have done them all.  Certainly, all architects have variation in the quality of their work, but there seems to me to be greater degree of variation in his work.  A couple of bad courses I would serve up would be Des Moines Golf and Country Club (where the Senior Open was held a couple of years ago) and Carmel Valley Ranch.  These courses have too many gimmicks, in my opinion, like railroad ties in the middle of the fairway, rocks surrounding the green, etc.
But, all in all, I think his work is great.  I may offer up an answer to my own question of why he seems to have a greater "beta" than other architects--I think that he is seen by many developers as the builder of very tough courses.  So, many times the developer calls him with the instructions to build the toughest course in wherever.  In doing so, he has to work with the land given to him, and toughness can only come from gimmicks.  Just a theory, but the architect generally has to work with what the developer gives him and instructs him.

[Jeff Goldman]

Tim,

Sorry about the late reply, I actually occasionally get distracted by work. On 10, there is a lot of fairway to the left of the pot bunker and some on the right (a little).  What they appear to have done is cut short the fairway over the bunker - there used to be a lot more, and much of that is now gone.  The safe shot is left of the bunker, the better angle probably a little right and past the bunker.  Blasting over the bunker is now a little more dangerous because there's not a lot of room.  Naturally, I hit a rotten 5-wood to the base of the bunker.

Matt Kardash, 13 and 14 are still relatively short, but play in opposite directions.  I don't recall seeing new tees for these shots, but A guy in the foursome behind us drove the green on 13 (actually put it in the little pot bunker on the left) with the wind behind him.

Matt Ward, the new tees on 17 and 18 provide significantly different angles.  On 17, one new tee is much closer to the lake, meaning there is a much longer carry over the junk on the left, and the straight line is over the junk on the left to the green.  There is no safe place to hit because I dont' think they will have the bailout over the over the mound/bunker on the right because of the angle (I went right over it, got a bounce off the side hill and the ball rolled nicely on the green).  Yardage will be something like 230-240.  There is also another back tee to the right, which is a safer shot but even longer.  They could use as many as three different tees for the tourney.

Same thing on 18.  The newer tee is down to the left and well behind the regular tees.  We have a pretty safe shot to the right part of the fairway, and the ball will roll down from there to the middle of the fairway.  They will have to choose a big carry, 250-260 to the safe part, or something like 300 to get the better angle to the green (yardage is an estimate from the caddies).

Mark Fine, as to the conditions, the sand in the middle of the fairways, especially on 5, was too soft to have any significant bounce or roll, and really looked like a watered waste area.  This was the middle of the fairway.  Brown and hard would be great, but I really think there's something not quite right there.

AS to the set-up, the folks there seemed to think Mr. Kohler wants to set it up as hard as possible, but that the PGA might not go along (I recall a quote from him after folks shot the lights out at Pumpkin Ridge to the effect that "Blackwolf Run is no Pumpkin Ridge").  The rough isn't really difficult now (its basically wispy grass), but they are bringing in more of the "junk" where fairway used to be in some spots.

                             Jeff Goldman

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

Many thanks. I played the tees you mentioned at #18 and it makes for a tougher hole but one the best in the world should have to tackle.

Jim H:

Glad to hear your take on Pete. Keep in mind a few other courses of note he's designed ...

*Bulle Rock
*Blackwolf Run (River & Meadow)
*Lost Canyon (Sky & Shadow) I really don't like Shadow
*The Medalist w Greg Norman
*Firethorn

With Pete Dye I believe you get a "New York Yankees" assessment. Either you love him or hate him. Pete changed the landscape on what can be done architecturally. He is also one of the few designers that actually creates PSYCHOLOGICAL FEAR in the minds of the better players.

I agree with your take that many developers want Pete to design brutally hard layouts and as a result you might get the over-the-top stuff you refer to.

I see Whistling Straits as a super venue, but how the course is prepared and what the weather conditions are that week will go a long way in determining if it is to have a permanent place in major championship circles.

I would hate to see the course play with strict bowling alley type fairways. That would make for the boring "let's play it safe at all times" mentality that becomes a bit dull and after one day a dreay mix of repetition. Why they changed the 10th hole is something I can't understand from what Jeff indicated.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Jim,

Dye has admitted that Carmel Valley Ranch was not good and he went back to tweek it some to fix a few problems.

Matt,

What's your thoughts on Mystic Rock?  (Cirba, too).

[Matt_Ward]

Scott:

There is sure to be a mix bag of opinion on Mystic Rock at Nemacolin Woodlands. I know Mike has his own thoughts -- George Pazin may also chime in since he's in the immediate area.

I like the course but don't see it being on the first page with other classic Dye layouts. The course does have elements that Jim highlighted on an earlier post where Pete sometimes throws the entire kitchen into the design and many times these elements look forced.

I believe that's the story line you will hear from those who don't see Mystic Rock in the best of light. I believe the course makes you play first rate shots -- it's not artful in any way -- more stark and sometimes that can take away from being in the environment of western PA.

Nonetheless, I believe I would have the course at the top of the list as Pennsy's best public.

GolfWeek rated Mystic Rock as 4th best behind Olde Stonewall, Wyncote and Glen Mills. I have not played Glen Mllls but there's no doubt Mystic Rock surpasses the other two that are ahead of it, in my opinion.

Mystic Rock can be quite harsh in the manner in which it plays. This is especially the case for adventurous golfers who play the wrong tees and top it off by having a bad day. The course doesn't realle seduce you -- it can hammer you. I guess that's why I like it -- it's live or Dye!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

I am just back from a couple of trips, including Kohler.

I was going to post a comment that I thought the Straits was going in the right direction with the firmness of the fairways.

The changes that I did not like were the narrowing of the fairway on the 6th and 18th.

I thought the 6th was devoid of interest by pushing you to the right side of the bunker.

As for 18, an already tricky driving hole is made even more awkward by pinching the fairway from the left.  The former wide fairway was the only saving grace.

As for Mystic Rock, I love Dye and most all of his work, but this is not in the same league as his other great courses, is it?  

[Mike_Cirba]

Ben/Matt;

In my opinion, Mystic Rock is one of the most forced, awkward, trite, cliched, and atypical of Pete Dye's courses.  Sure, it's a ballbuster, but where's the imagination and verve so evident on many of his courses??

It looks mailed in, and the boulders lining many fairways are absurd, leading to ridiculous bounces, twisted ankles, and ugly eyesores.  

How about that "volcano" of a 16th tee?  Instead of producing a pretty cool par four from the top of the hill, Dye went to his formulaic 5,3,4 finish, except to do so required going back down the hill and then building a tee that's about 40 feet high!!

The course, other than a few solid holes, basically sucks on a thematic and inspirational scale, and has now unfortunately become the new site of the "Pennsylvania Open" on the PGA tour beginning in 2003.  

Can't wait to see where the gallery is supposed to stand!

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