[Patrick_Mucci]

I was thinking about NGLA, GCGC, Seminole and PV and how both aerial and ground games exist, although certain holes mandate an aerial game while other holes receive both.

What struck me about these courses was the effect that the PIN LOCATION had on the decision.

As an example, assuming identical left center drives on # 1 at NGLA, if the pin was up front both games could be played, with one favored over the other.  If the pin was back left, both could be played with one HEAVILY favored over the other.

This configuration/determination presents itself on many holes at NGLA, and at GCGC, Seminole and PV as well.

What other holes, on what other courses presents the golfer with this decision, and which decision do you favor.

[Slag Bandoon]

 The option is my preference.  

  Generally speaking though I think that the ground game option has to be so completely and ridiculously obvious that it becomes ridiculous and obvious and is relegated to "topped-shot-bailout-luck status".  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Slag,

The ground game had all but disappeared for a while, so I'm not so sure the option is so obvious.

The first hole at NGLA is a good example.

With the pin back left, you'd be amazed at how many people try to fly it in, only to be left with a difficult recovery.

With the pin very front, experience becomes the teacher as the lob shot trickles back down the front of the green into the fairway ten yards from the green.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

I would absolutely NEVER try to play a ground game shot into a back left pin on #1 NGLA! NEVER! To do that successfully you'd have to run that center ridge which is about 3 feet wide, if that and completely blind! And the green is so far above you if you're out in the fairway! A ground game shot isn't all that easy for me anyway and I don't think I'm ready to hit one up that hill across all the radical contours in that green.

Hell, I wouldn't even look forward to trying to PUTT the ball from the front of that green to a back left pin!! Forget even about the hole it's hard enough to get a putt into that back left bowl and keep it there! And I'd sure rather hit a putt than a ground game shot from out in the fairway!

No sir, for me to that pin it would be the highest softest shot I could muster. This just shows again that we hardly ever agree on anything--probably another reason why golf and its architecture is so interesting!

For a real thoughtful decision on which option to use (ground or air) I would give you the new firmer, faster Pine Valley (they've been slicing and topdressing their fairways this year) and hole #13. The approach on it is now as firm as it needs to be and that's a real neat shot to try to run it in there. If you do it right it reacts very much like the redan shot which basically it is!

Ground game shot to a back left pin at #1 NGLA??!! Now I'm sure you're wacko!! You probably try to hit a moon shot cut from 200 yds with a 5 iron into NGLA's #4 too, like you said Tiger did, don't you???

I have to come back to this post and add a little addendum. Thinking of you hitting a ground game shot from the fairway to that back left pin at NGLA's #1 only reinforces something I've always suspected about really good architecture and that is the greatest asset about really good strategic architecture is it's ability to TEMPT golfers to do things they probably shouldn't be doing!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Actually, Eddie Gibstein and George Zahringer were the first players I saw hit a high cut with a 4-5-iron to the far left pin on # 4.

As to # 1, I've learned from experience what I feel most comfortable with, and of course, so much of the approach shot into # 1 depends on your drive and its lie.

I almost always hit driver off the tee, into the left neck, short of, equal to, or a little past the right side bunker.

Pin location has a high degree of influence on my club selection.

Speaking of that ridge or spine, what do you approach the green with when the Pin is ON that spine ?

[Slag_Bandoon]

Pat, That's exactly what I mean.  The options generally are not noticed or even considered as the aerial game is the modus operandi of the modern golfer.  I've played the last couple of days with a feller who is so grooved into grabbing his "Trouble Wedge" that he uses it everywhere within 50 yards of the green.  On the apron - T Wedge - fringe - T Wedge. Sand shot - T wedge.    He hasn't caught on to the percentage game yet and seeing him skull the pill time after time, I was dumfounded that no epiphany took place.  He's seen the pro do it so it must be the right shot.    Also, he used driver on anything not a par 3.  No thought, just grab the driver and "let the siege gun boom".  

  I don't mean to pick on this guy, it's just that I see an awful lot of this. Perhaps it's because I'm a muni rat and see the dregs of golfdom.  I don't know much but I do know that if I can rise out of the ashes of ignorance, anybody can.   Golf is more fun if we are thinking.  Even if the solutions are wrong, the choice adds to the freedom of golf.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I've never seen the pin ON that spine! You can't be serious.

I've only played NGLA, what, maybe a dozen times in all but only since the last few years (I hadn't been there for about 35 years).

Every time I hit a 2 iron off #1 tee and I've always had some kind of wedge in there. I always seem to be in the middle of the fairway and there's a tree behind the green and I've found if I aim at the right side of that tree with a nice high wedge of some kind that can get me into that back left pin.

As you know you can't see the green surface at all from the fairway (where I am) so I've never really known how the ball got back to the bowl back there except last time there in the morning the group ahead of me said I hit just on top of that spine and the ball filtered into the bowl and almost went in. Of course I missed the putt.

I had to go overtime there that day and did the same thing only this time my opponent hit it back there too and birdied the hole and that was it!

Ed Gibstein, Huh? I played with him in a tournament one time at Fisher's Island and on #5 (the Biarritz) I hit a good driver at that hole into the wind and got to the front. Gibstein takes out something like a 3-4 iron and flies the ball high right back to the pin! I said: "How the hell did you do that?" and he said: "I'm just a big fat boy!"

I think I told you this once before but one time at Seminole with Terry McBride we got to the 8th and from the tips he asks his caddie what he's supposed to hit on this hole (Why would Terry ask his caddie that since he belongs to the place?).

Anyway, the caddie clearly said; "4 wood". First of all, I don't think I've ever hit that green in my life from the tips, and Terry pulls out a 4 iron and flies it right into the middle of the green!

About simultaneously all of us including the caddies said; "JEESUS" and Terry says; "what's the matter?" The caddie said; "I told you 4 wood" and Terry said; "OH, I thought you said 4 iron".

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

It was on the spine for the first two rounds of the Singles a few years ago.  In my first match I missed a 5 footer for birdie and my opponent two putted from below left.  
In the second round I two putted from below left and my opponent is still putting from the right rear of the green.

When I'm playing decent, my driver flight pattern is a draw, so I aim at the bunker and the ball usually draws to the left side alley which affords a good view of the green.  
I tried laying back with an iron and 3-wood but didn't feel comfortable with the length of the incoming shot.
Even if the driver doesn't draw, I don't mind the bunker shot to the green.  P.S. I have made par from the lawn and gardens left of the driveway, but would prefer to never have to try again.

If that tree behind # 1 goes, alot of people are in trouble.
I wonder if that was intentionally planted there ?

Having played with Terry McBride as much as I have, and knowing him as well as I do, all I can say is, that's Terry.
He has the simplest swing with what appears to be the fewest moving parts of any amateur I've ever seen, and Power to boot, but Mike and Mark McBride know all the inventive shots from around the green at NGLA.  I assume Joe taught them all they know about chipping and finesse, but reserved some extra shots when he had to teach them a lesson or two in a little competition.

[Eric Pevoto]

Bringing this one back up to ask a question about Pine Valley #1.  

I've only seen it once and never played it, so bear with me.  It seems that the first green, basically a triangled peninsula open up front with steep fall-offs on either side that gradually reach at least 10-12 toward the back, just screams for a low runner up in there. This seems even more true the deeper the flag is into the green.  It looked like a front placement would take either approach.  Would anybody with more experience at PV agree?

If so, and I hope it is, I gotta tell you I love the idea that the simple fear of those greensides pushing a poorly directed shot even further away is enough to promote playing the ball along the ground.  Who needs wind?

[TEPaul]

Eric:

The real consideration with the 1st green at PVGC really isn't whether you try to hit a low running shot or an aerial one!

Either would probably work just fine but the real deal is about distance control (and obviously accuracy too). But the question always on that approach is distance control to what?

The caddies at PVGC always give you yardage to the front of greens and then the pin but on #1 they certainly seem to concentrate far more on the distance to the front of the green rather than to the pin.

The 1st green is also extremely long and ever narrowing which absolutely makes that approach and hole. I've rarely seen a player go as deep as the pin on that hole on purpose!

But there have been those occassions which is impressive if it can be done well. My recollection is that Davis Love flew a 6 iron all the way to a far back pin at the Walker Cup and I once played in a tournament there a Canadian guy named Gary Cowan who also flew a 6 iron all the way back there and almost holed it but he was the most aggressive player (always) I ever saw!

The absolute best way to see what approaching that green is all about is to play in or watch a multi-player playoff on #1! It's fascinating to see what generally happens and they have always said that was Crump's intended "second use" for the hole!

Approaching #1 is something anyway but I would think if the ground on the approach is very firm and fast and the green surface itself is very firm (it's mostly always fast) that the hole would be even additionally interesting! There's a "Sunday" pin on that hole (mid green but far right) that's unbelievable. If the ball gets even a few feet to the right of it it will probably trickle off the green, down the hill and into the woods.

Some years ago there was a player who got to the finals of the Crump Cup who placed his approach about 15-20 feet to the left of that pin (basically the perfect approach shot to that pin) and then putted the ball just that much past the pin and it went into the woods, at which point he said quite loudly, "you'd think I would have learned, I did exactly the same thing this morning!"

[Matt_Ward]

The discussion about aerial / ground game needs to expand beyond the continued musings of what is played National or other such elite clubs.

From my many travels throughout the USA in doing various ratings I can tell you the aerial game is without doubt the primary method in playing. Why?

First, a number of courses are located in certain regions of the country where the particular turf in question is not able to produce a serious ground game option. A good example being most of the locations in the southeast -- Florida being prime candidate #1.

You also have the issue of certain types of soils and what can be realistically achieved.

Second, many courses, in my opinion, from visiting a good number over the years, are determined, either by superintendent action or by orders from higher-ups, to keep courses green no matter what. As a result, the point-to-point style play many on GCA do not favor is just not possible. From a CYA perspective it's safer politically to apply MORE H20 than LESS.

Third, I don't know how many architects practicing today really know how to marry the concepts of air and ground games together when the above issues are not matters of contention.

It's unfortunate that the air and ground game dynamic is sen so few times among American courses. I just came back from Nebraska and the joy in playing Wild Horse in Gothenburg was simply fantastic. The course is the junior league version of Sand Hills and it does show, that given the right circumstances, the intermingling of air and ground games is what takes golf to the highest level when combined with a layout of strategic qualities.

Too many courses today are waaaaaay overwatered and as a result you get veal cutlet size divots even when the weather has been dry for toooo long.

Pat -- I can't forget when we played GCGC and how ill-prepared the course was with all the H20 that was applied by man's hand. GCGC is a course of high distinction and deserves to play as it was intended. If that is happening at GCGC one can only imagine how this pattern is duplicating itself at so many courses across America.

The concept of brown grass is completely foreign to many people.  Clearly, much needs to be done to enlighten people how golf was intended to be played and whenever possible achieved. I have my fingers crossed but unless something really happens I don't see much progress in this area.  

[Eric Pevoto]

Matt:

Agreed that the discussion should include golf courses of all levels.  Also agree on the overwatering issue.  I'm no agronomist, but I think with the anthracnose problem, courses in the NE are learning that overwatering is simply a short term CYA with long term implications.  Could the politics turn the other way.

I just brought up PV because that green stood out to me.  In fact it looks as if the approach to the first green here at French Creek GC will favor the ground game for much the same reasons I stated for PV #1.  My intent is not to compare us to PV, but a part of what French Creek is about is showing golfers the beauty of options and firm conditions.  That and really kickin bunkers!    

By the way, I grew up playing a pretty below average muni in Texas City, TX where the wind (always) and ground game (most times) were key (the clay was either hard as a rock or holding casual water).  It doesn't happen much up here in PA, but I remember and miss that feeling of a ball sort of "getting away from you" on a firm surface.  By the way, what about bermuda turf precludes the ground game?

[John Lyon]

Another firm and fast course where both games are required is the Kingsley Club.  Par 3  hole # 5 (220yd to a semi blind punch bowl) and 16 (210yd with the green tilted away and sloping right to left) yield much better results with a well executed ground approach.  Many of the two shot holes will favor either approach depending on the hole location.  About six of the holes have elevated greens that limit you to the aerial game but the recovery shots provide many ground game options.

[Matt_Ward]

John Lyon:

No doubt The Kingsley Club is a great example of a new course that highlights both aspects of the aerial and ground games.

Eric:

The best that can be said about Bermuda is that in the winter time when it goes dormant you have the opportunity to play ground shots because the surface is not the carpet thick surface you find in the summer months.

Bermuda absorbs the contact with the ground and the nature of the grass prevents any serious release of the ball for extra yards. It's the ideal surface for point-to-point play.

I don't doubt that in Texas you would have had to play a wide variety of shots given the nature of the constant wind and relatively dry weather conditions. - especially if you grew up in the panhandle or in West Texas.

Bermuda also grows so darn fast in the summer because of the heat and high humidity -- perfect conditions for lush conditions and the foil to any serious attempt for firm and fast golf.

I do agree with Pat that pin placements will certainly influence shotmaking options but when you must deal with bermuda and / or zoysia grass you are just not going to have any sort of meaningful "release" of the golf ball.

You mention you're living in Pennsy now. Couple of items to consider -- too many courses in the Northeast water courses like they were putting out the Chicago fire. Too many people are caught up in the "how does the course look syndrome" instead of "how does it play."

Sad to say but there are plenty of superintendents who are more concerned with job security and a good deal of them know very little about maximizing optimum strategic considerations. In their mind it's better to play it "safe" and overdose the course with water. On the flip side there are also key leaders at a number of clubs who have ordered their superintendents to keep everything green -- not a brown spot anywhere. Either circumstance fails miserably.

The issue of watering golf courses is going to take a very serious turn of events if the drought conditions continue for much longer in many areas of the USA. It's time to cut back by choice rather than by edict of local, county and state laws. There are many people here on GCA who understand this but it's amazing that even at the so-called "classic" courses the ignorance on a how a course should ultimately play is heard (and understood) by so few people.

[Tim Weiman]

Matt Ward:


I can't help but ask:

Is it really "sad" that superintendents are worried about job security?

Or

Is it rather elitest to suggest they shouldn't be worried about feeding their families?

Bottom line: let's just figure out how to better promote the ground game and avoid beating on superintendents trying to keep Green Chairman, members, guests, customers, etc. happy.

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Please wake up and smell the coffee!

My statements are very much accurate. You make it sound that since superintendents need jobs and therefore must feed families it's OK to do what a number of them do WHAT THEY PLEASE regarding the overdosing of H20 on their respective golf courses. I don't buy that one bit.

Also, let's be clear. Yes, no one myself included, wants to see a person lose their job, however, when people are more concerned with "how a course looks" rather than "how a course plays" I have to question their overall competence. Too much focus, I should say, way toooo much focus, in America is spent on appearances rather than playability features.

To be fair, a number of superintendents are ORDERED by overzealous, and, in many cases equally incompetent green chairmen, who could not grow grass in their own back yards with a road map no less handling an entire golf course.

Clearly, superintendents in many cases are just following the axiom -- give the customer what they want. So -- here's what you get. You get overwatered golf courses that fail to give any real release of the ball -- this only serves to hurt the higher handicapper, senior, women and junior player because they get little or no roll off the tee shot. The better / stronger player is rarely effected because he / she can then aim at the corners of a hole and the ball WILL NOT run into any significant trouble. You also have the very real possibility in developing serious turf issues because of toooo much H20.

The mindset on water usage and how courses should optimally play needs a big time change. UNTIL GREEN IS GOLDEN is replaced with a much more sensible understanding of what is needed you will eventually get a major backlash from the public at-large (it's happening in a number of communities today - see Pueblo, CO and Walking Stick GC as just one example) that golf is realy wasting such a precious resource and it doesn't have to be the case at all.

No one is a bigger fan of superintendents than I Tim. I have written numerous articles on how important their position is but let's not lose focus on one thing -- EVERYONE IS ACCOUNTABLE and when visits take place at golf courses and you know the weather has been especially dry AND YOU STILL have the issue of taking veal cutlet size divots or the ball is plugging after landing from the tee shot then something is very wrong indeed.

Unless people start talking about this issue -- then little, if anything will get done. The only way superintendents and key club officials will GET IT is when they understand how ignorant they truly are on the artful marriage between turf and strategic capabilities for any golf course.

[Eric Pevoto]

We've gotten off the topic here, but I'll repeat what I said or asked above.  

I wonder, with the number of courses in the northeast suffering from anthracnose attacking their largely poa greens, will this help the movement toward keeping conditions drier?  

Short run=green  Long run=dead

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