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Pete Lavallee

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2007, 05:12:19 PM »
Just to show that sheep can and do build bunkers, I snapped this shot at Royal North Devon, just to the left of the green on the second par 3 on the front side; basically at the far end of the property.

"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Peter Pallotta

Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2007, 07:36:54 PM »
Bob
You've already answered AHughes question, but I wanted to ask it in a slightly different way, to try to understand it better. Do you think it's accurate to say:

"The locations of all the bunkers at TOC are informed by human agency, including those pre-existing bunkers not created by man, which bunkers were then utilized and incorporated into the design by said human agency".    

Thanks
Peter


Andy Hughes

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2007, 10:50:48 AM »
Quote
Yes

Bob, is this your opinion, or is it based on anything factual?
Also, just so I am clear, you are none of the bunkers at the Old Course were created by anything other than man?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 10:51:21 AM by AHughes »
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

BCrosby

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2007, 11:55:29 AM »
Peter - Yes.

AHughes - I have no empirical evidence for my theory. But then the proponents of the goat, sheep, rabbit and divot theories have no empirical evidence supporting their theories either.

What my theory has that their theories lack is plausibiliy.

Bob

Adam Sherer

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2007, 01:02:01 PM »
For the purpose of this discussion, what do sheep and golfers have in common? They are both creatures of habit.

And what does this mean in the context of the bunker thread? It means that a herd of sheep, if given the opportunity, will return to the same spot over and over. Sounds like golfers, doesn't it. Golfers will return to the same spot (ie hit a ball to the same landing area) over and over.


So, both explanations of the origin of bunkers sound plausible; especially since both golfers (or any stick and ball game) and grazing animals have been on the land for more than a thousand years (give or take a few).

"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

BCrosby

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2007, 01:52:55 PM »
Adam -

The greatness of TOC doesn't derive from the greatness of its isolated features. Its greatness is due to the relationships between those features. Those inter-relationships are what makes TOC so remarkably strategic.  

To explain those sophisticated relationships as the unintended by-product of (a) sheep returning to sleep in the same spot every night or (b) divots left by golfers (virtually all of whom are slicers) doesn't sound very plausible to me. In fact it sounds like a tall tale.

OTOH, there is a simple, plausible alternative explanation. The only thing it lacks is the misty romanticism of the traditional explanations for the origins of TOC.


Bob
« Last Edit: February 25, 2007, 06:22:08 PM by BCrosby »

Sean Walsh

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2007, 08:32:15 PM »
I have little doubt that golfers returning and playing from the same position explains a significant proportion of bunkers, especially those on the line of play.  However I would not be so quick to discount the livestock and wildlife theory.  

Those bunkers found in the lee of a larger dune or hill are much more likely to have developed over time due to the movements of livestock.  They will constantly return the same places at night and during episodes of bad weather.  

Further to that they will also constantly walk on the same path.  Over time this devlops into a rut.  In a seaside location with the light soils and high winds I could easily see one of these ruts being eroded into a bunker.  

I just thought of something.  How about someone give the greenkeeper at Brora a call.  ;D

Peter Pallotta

Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2007, 08:45:16 PM »
"I have little doubt that golfers returning and playing from the same position explains a significant proportion of bunkers, especially those on the line of play."

Sean, this is where I get a bit confused with that line of thinking, and have some trouble with it:

TOC seems to be regarded by all the experts past and present as a wonderfully "strategic" golf course. If the bunkers there are a result of golfers often "playing from the same position," wouldn't those bunkers be almost entirely "penal" in nature?

I mean, if you put bunkers in the very place the average golfer has always (and will always) hit to, you're simply penalizing the average player.

My confusion is, I've never read anyone describing TOC as an example of "penal architecture" -- so, even though the theory seems plausible to me too, I have a hard time subscribing to it.

Peter      

Sean Walsh

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2007, 09:47:36 PM »
Peter,

I can understand them being penal if they had developed on a parkland style course where the trees were dictating the shape of the whole.  On TOC and many links this is not the case.  It's not as if you have to aim for 15 yards of fairway and if you miss you're in a cavernous bunker or trees.  You're generally given anywhere from 30-50 yards of fairway and the chance of being in a bunker or the gorse, but probably an equal chance of having lady luck smile upon you.  

I would think it is more often the better player who may try to get too cute and flirt with the hazards that will find grief.  The poorer striker of the ball will aim well wide of the hazard while the better striker of the ball will aim closer to the hazard.  I would also say that in the second case the gathering nature of many of these hazards and the golfer's inability to account for it plays as large a part in their undoing as the inability to strike the ball well.

 


TEPaul

Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2007, 04:41:27 AM »
Peter:

As for TOC and the idea of penal or strategic, history seems to tell us that TOC was once upon a time was not just a remarkably penal course but an increasingly dangerous one too as play increased.

Apparently it was pretty narrow---eg maybe 40 yards wide but the problem was golfers were almost constantly coming at one another on narrow shared fairways as the course was played out and back down those narrow corridors to common greens.

I think it might have been Lord Playfair who directed Alan Robertson (the man some consider to be history's first golf architect) to clear out the course of gorse or whatever and gave him something like 50 pounds to do that. That was real early in the evolution of golf architecture.

When the course was widened---and apparently widened for safety's sake it sort of instantly became strategic because those golfers coming at each other could take a lot more lines with the essentially melded contiguous holes going out and back.

I don't think this was done exactly at that time to create architectural strategy---it just sort of happened and evolved for other reasons, like a lot of things in golf. In the case of TOC's widening, it was done for safety basically. ;)

TOC is considered to be the prototype of all architecture but after-all, how many golf courses have routings like TOC with so many contiguous (shared) holes in such a narrow over all band?

I bet TOC isn't much more than 200 yards wide. Do you see how unusual that really is in golf and why those basically double-wide fairways made the course instantly strategic because of that double wide concept?

Other golf courses around the world could do that but to do it like TOC's contiguous hole width they'd generally have to make each individual hole about the width of TOC's double wide routing that is basically a string of two holes in one constantly coming at each other (except for the "hook" at the far end).
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 04:45:37 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #35 on: February 27, 2007, 08:55:53 AM »
I have little doubt that golfers returning and playing from the same position explains a significant proportion of bunkers, especially those on the line of play.  However I would not be so quick to discount the livestock and wildlife theory.  
 

Sean - You have "little doubt"? Then I assume you have ample evidence for your view. I would be interested in seeing it. I also note that if these things occur naturally, I assume you will be able to cite for us evidence from other locations where divots and livestock generate strategic bunkering schemes.

TEP - The widening of TOC may have resulted in the single most significant unlearned lesson in the history of gca.

Bob
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 09:00:22 AM by BCrosby »

Andy Hughes

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2007, 09:16:23 AM »
Bob, it would seem only fair at this point to question what is your basis for saying all the bunkers at the Old Course were physically created by man. My understanding is that it is more your 'gut' then anything else?  

The story about the Road Hole bunker that I had always heard was Allan Robertson created it etc. But Ian Andrew's blog says:
Quote
the people of the town apparently used to dig in many of the bunkers to get shells and this location was a particularly good spot close to the town. The bunkers depth came from the people’s quest for shells; which eventually was stopped when the golf course became to busy and popular to allow this activity to continue.

Ian also mentions that an old map shows the bunker there when Robertson was only 17 (that map would be interesting to see--how many bunkers were there, how many have been added and removed etc. Ian, are you listening?  ;))
So is this an example of a bunker that man created (independently of golf) and then adapted for golf? Was the green placed so as to maximize the use of the already-existing bunker? Bob, is this an example of what you are thinking?
Also, it strikes me as odd that there are so many bunkers scattered throughout the course, but no real records of when they appeared or who dug them or had them put in if indeed man created most/all of them.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Peter Pallotta

Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2007, 09:19:56 AM »
"TOC is considered to be the prototype of all architecture but after-all, how many golf courses have routings like TOC with so many contiguous (shared) holes in such a narrow over all band?

I bet TOC isn't much more than 200 yards wide. Do you see how unusual that really is in golf and why those basically double-wide fairways made the course instantly strategic because of that double wide concept?"

TE - thanks.  
I've watched the play at TOC dozens of times, and it never registered on me how narrow it is, especially given the way it plays. That's remarkable.

(Thanks for the mini-history lesson, btw: It's interesting how, historically, the intentional, the necessary, and the natural all play a part.)

On your last point: if I undersood it right, a new course might have to be about 400 yards wide to at least potentially offer a playing-venue like TOC. That doesn't seem all that wide to me. (Or is it? I don't know).  Are there patches of land out there that no one's considered putting a golf course on because they are 'only' 400 yards wide?  

Didn't anyone but Jones-Mackenzie pick up on what was really 'going on' at TOC?

Peter

« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 09:40:08 AM by Peter Pallotta »

BCrosby

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2007, 09:30:22 AM »
AHughes -

We have two competing theories. There is the rabbits and divots theory and there is the hand of man theory.

Neither theory has any empirical evidence to support it.

First, that means the proponents of either theory are not in a position to have "little doubt" about their views.

Second, when there is no convincing evidence that cuts for one theory over another, you fall back on the one that is most plausible.

So let's do the plausibility analysis. Let's ask two questions:

Is there evidence at other courses where sophisticated strategic bunkering arrangements were derived from rabbits and divot holes? I don't know of any.  

Is there evidence at other course where sophisticated strategic bunkering arrangements were derived from human planning? Yes. Every other course I am familiar with.

That's what I'm saying.

Bob
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 09:32:25 AM by BCrosby »

Andy Hughes

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2007, 10:28:46 AM »
A stray thought for anyone who may know---is the bunkering now roughly the same on the Old Course as it was when the course followed the old clockwise, lefthand  route?  Or were old bunkers filled in and new ones created after Old Tom created the standalone first green and the counter-clockwise rotation became the norm?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2007, 10:29:28 AM »
What does everyone think about this -- apologies if everyone already was operating under this assumption and as usual I was obtuse:

My original assumption was that man chose the land, set the tees and holes, and then rabbits and sheep followed.  Bunkers thus were formed by rabbits, sheep, and man, but man's being along the line of play, and animals wherever.

But was the reality really the reverse of this? Given the complete lack of agronomy, is a more-likely assumption that man located where the turf was amenable to the game?  And that the choice of linksland was a product of:

1. Land useless agriculturally, so that no one sought to keep off animals or undo their "destruction" of the land,
2. Place where rabbits and sheep already roamed, providing a closely-mown, ready for play surface?

I assumed that man chose the land and "built" the course first, and sheep and rabbits then somehow "moved in" and started building bunkers over a course whose tees and holes already were fixed.

But isn't it more likely to have happened this way: man chose land where the sheep and rabbits already roamed.  He would have been confronted by a land where the animals closely cropped the grass, allowing for play, but that unfortunately was littered with sandy pits and rabbit holes -- an unfortunate byproduct of land otherwise ideal due to its closely-mown grass?  Where said bunkers were allowed to grow, and not immediately eradicated, because the land was worthless agriculturally?

In this scenario, rabbits and sheep did play monkeys at the typewriter.  Slopes in the lee and hollows -- later "collection areas" -- would have been pockmarked with "bunkers." This word in quotes, though, as it was meaningless before golfers came along to create and name the concept.

What happened next: golfers embued those bunkers with strategic meaning by choosing tees and holes that brought those features into play.  I assumed, certainly wrongly, a course whose location was fixed.  But surely golfers chose an already-pockmarked land, and eventually, somehow, figured out the game was made more interesting when they relocated tees and holes to bring those sandy areas into play.

Thus, before golfers = meaningless sandy pits.  After golfers = "bunkers."

So that's two theories:

1. Golfers chose land that already was heavily pockmarked with sandy waste pits and introduced the concept of strategic (or penal) bunkers through their choices of where to locate the tees and holes.
2. Golfers' repeated play.  Through their play, they opened gashes / divots in the ground that grew into bunkers positioned exactly where their shots sometimes finished.

In both cases, you could say that man is the source of the strategic bunker, but this discovery was serendipitous; i.e., not the product of someone purposely building a bunker in a certain spot for "strategic" reasons.  That idea must have developed out of the original discovery.

I'm sure everyone has already thought of this and that I was just misreading the posts because of my probably-wrong perspective.

Now, as to the Wethered & Simpson position...

Bob C.: why do you see the man and rabbit theories as competing?

Here's another possibility: golfers chose land that was heavily pockmarked with sandy waste areas.  They located tees and holes to avoid as much of these as possible.  The idea was that these areas should be out of play.

But then something unintentional happened: through repeated play, golfers created their own sandy waste areas.  Because these areas fell within the boundaries of play, golfers could not avoid the conclusion: sandy waste areas can make the game more interesting.

Thus, the discovery of the strategic bunker...

Mark

BCrosby

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2007, 10:58:36 AM »
Mark B. asks:

Bob C.: why do you see the man and rabbit theories as competing?

Answer: They don't have to be. But that is not the history of TOC that people swallow hook, line and sinker. The standard history is that TOC has no architect; that it was formed by forces beyond the ministrations of mere human beings; that it magically emerged from the dunesland thanks to sheep, goats and divots.

I think that standard history is a bunch of whooey.

Bob

Sean Walsh

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2007, 03:15:18 PM »
Bob,

So one day a man with a shovel went on a lovely walk on the links and with only golf in mind dug some holes in the (thanks to the Rabbits and Sheep) close mown grass.  He did this because the game was way to easy for him, what with the fancy new 1820's model driver he'd recently purchased.  Behold over the next days or months or years he fine tuned these holes into a wonderful course.  Funnily enough no-one knows the name of this man or men.  This when humans are generally pretty good at documenting and promoting their achievments.  

I still have "little doubt" that "A SIGNIFICANT PROPORTION" of the bunkers on TOC were either made or inspired by natural erosion.  If said erosion was detrimental to the playing of golf perhaps it would be filled in by the players.  Perhaps one day some extremely bright cookie put forth the idea to "move that hole (bunker) from there over to there" as it would add vast stategic interest.  Over a few hundred years of erosion and remedies to this erosion why is it so hard to accept that the course just came to be that way..Due to erosion, divots and occasionally the intervention of man.

Also all this evidence you have of strategically placed bunkering.  Any of the architects ever cited TOC as their inspiration?




BCrosby

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2007, 08:33:24 AM »

Also all this evidence you have of strategically placed bunkering.  Any of the architects ever cited TOC as their inspiration?


I'm not sure if your question is serious. On the off chance that it is, I suggest you do some reading. Start anywhere. And start soon if you are going to participate here. In the literature of golf architecture no course is admired more than TOC. I can't think of an important architect (other than T. Fazio ;)) who has not cited TOC's remarkable strategies as an inspiration.

Bob  

Sean Walsh

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2007, 08:41:37 AM »
Maybe I should have put the question in Italics.  The fact that all these successful strategic minded architects use TOC as inspiration doesn't really provide evidence of either your theory or mine.

In short is it inspiration because it's natural and provides a base for what a golf course should look like?

Or is it inspiration because some really smart cookie/s between approx 1400 and 1840 went around digging strategically placed holes?

BCrosby

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2007, 08:55:14 AM »
Sean -

At the risk of beating a tired old horse again, neither of us can prove our preferred theory. Neither of us has any empirical evidence.

In the absence of any conclusive evidence, I will go with the the more plausible of the two theories. To think otherwise is to believe that the extraordinarily sophisticated strategies presented by TOC are primarily the work of chance.

I find that unlikely in the extreme.

Bob  

TEPaul

Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2007, 10:07:06 AM »
I think one of the best ways to even begin to answer this fundamental question about the beginning and evolution of various bunkers on a course like TOC is to determine just how long the greens have been where they are. We certainly do know that most all tees have changed from long ago golf at TOC not for the least reason being the fact of the Rule evolution on where a golfer must tee off from.  ;)

My sense on this question is that we also probably need to look not just at bunkers but what those old "swards" (the precusor of what we know today as fairway) were and were all about.

My sense is that golf and golf features way back in the 18th century and earlier were basically a matter of what might be termed "path of least resistance" golf.  ;)

That kind of thing wasn't really a matter of man "making" much in the way of architecture, it was more a matter of just playing on, around and over what was already there from the evolution and forces of Nature.   ;)

But come about the middle of the 19th century all that obviously begun to change and probably changed very dramatically into something more along the lines of what we today think of as golf course architecture.

But I think we need to look more carefully at not what original bunkers were but what original "swards" were, and more importantly WHY (how they happened).  ;)

I say that because if we understand "swards" (those unusual areas where original bents and fescues thrived without other vegetative competition) better we just may find that some of the original bunker formations and such were not much more than just "some of the rest" (those things other than "swards").

To understand better the way golf (and architecture?) once was before about the middle of the 19th century I don't think one can ever appreciate enough just how rudimentary (unaltered) it really was way back then.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 10:21:31 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2007, 11:11:40 AM »
TEP -

Things probably were very, very rudimentary early on at TOC. My guess is that the TOC we know and love today was the product of a long series of incremental changes over the span of three or four centuries. None of which changes was individually very dramatic or notable.

The big change was, of course, the decision to widen the playing corridors in the 1870's. Again I am guessing, but I would think that the widening created a cascade of other, more minor changes as people digested the significance of the expanded playing areas. All of a sudden the "swards" were both quantitatively and qualitatively different.

Some of these changes involved simply finding happy accidents and leaving them alone. Others were more pro-active.

I would love to know, for example, the architectural evolution of the Principal's Nose Bunker. When did it first show up, how has it changed, etc.?

Bob    

Andy Hughes

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Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2007, 11:24:13 AM »
Quote
In the absence of any conclusive evidence, I will go with the the more plausible of the two theories. To think otherwise is to believe that the extraordinarily sophisticated strategies presented by TOC are primarily the work of chance.

I find that unlikely in the extreme

Bob, there is some logic to that, but it still doesn't sit well with me.

In Balfour's Reminiscences of Golf on St. Andrews Links, he talks about the course from around 1840 or so up through the end of the 19th century.  He talks about how narrow the course was in its original out and back configuration, "flanked by high whins for the greater part of its extent."

More germane to this discussion, however, Balfour says the course at that time was "studded with sand-pits".  Now, this says nothing about how the bunkers were created, but it does say something about the bunkers and their relevance to course strategy--the course at the time had lots of bunkers and was a penal exam, not the strategic course it would later become.  The golfer was forced to attack the bunkers and play over them.  Giving them a wide berth was not an option due to the narrowness and the whins.

When the course was later widened, those same bunkers that had studded the penal course now took on a strategic dimension--no longer was the golfer forced to play directly over Hell to play the 14th, rather he had options to choose from and choices to make.

"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

TEPaul

Re:Re "Nature's Bunkers" Thread: Man & Strategically-Placed Bunkers
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2007, 12:04:20 PM »
"My guess is that the TOC we know and love today was the product of a long series of incremental changes over the span of three or four centuries. None of which changes was individually very dramatic or notable."

Bob:

That very well may be the case. However, my point is I just don't think there probably were many, if any, purposeful man-made architectural changes to a course like TOC prior to perhaps the first half or the middle of the 19th century.

If there were incremental changes to a course like that and the few others of its remarkable age I think those changes in the centuries leading up to perhaps the beginning of the 19th century was the work of the forces of Nature---including wind and water, rabbits, sheep, birds, the footsteps and early I&B impliments of man, whatever. I just don't think much of anything was done prior to that time that we today would considered to be "dedicatedly man-made architectural" (approximately 1850).

As Behr said: "Golf at that time was in that innocent state in which man did not think to do such things with what he was playing on." Golf in those times (before the 19th century) was in that state he called "Wild" golf.

This was before the idea of dedicated and purposeful man-made golf architecture, in my opinion.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 12:06:21 PM by TEPaul »

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