[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

When waying the opinion of a particular golfer's opinion of a prarticular golf course do you consider their golf architecture IQ?

[webster]

Or their spelling skills?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

What is PRARTICULAR ?

More evidence of IDIOT SAVANTS amongst us ?

Or, just IDIOTS ?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
Sorry for the spelling error, my spelling IQ is obviously lacking. Oh well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Nobody's perfect.

You just have a WAY to go to WEIGH all the facts.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
Only if I was asking them about the architecture.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
You've got me on the spelling IQ by a mile - com se com sa.

My francais spelling sucks too.

[RJ_Daley]

First I consider how late the night has become, how many beverages the golfer has had, and how particular he is about his golf and opinions and finally if he weighs more than his IQ.

[ed_getka]

When someone outside of this site waxes poetic about some golf course I haven't played before, I ask them what they like about it, and then ask them what their favorite courses are to see what types of courses they enjoy. I can generally make a decision whether or not to play based on the feedback from that info.


There was an interesting conversation I had this spring sort of along these lines. We stopped at the turn for lunch at Lost Dunes and we were chatting about various courses when the courses of Monterey came up. One of the guys wasn't a GCA'er and said he had only played Poppy Hills out here. I was incredulous that someone would play that course before Pebble or Spyglass and began to comment on it when a GCA regular chimed in that we are architecture snobs. I don't think that is the case, but I wonder what others here think.


When I make my first trip to Scotland next year I plan on playing TOC, North Berwick, Dornoch, Prestwick at a minimum. There are lots of other courses to play of course, but as a first time visitor (especially someplace that you can't go on a regular basis) don't you generally play the best courses first?Or, I should say, the best of the type of courses you like the most and derive the most pleasure from.

[A_Clay_Man]

Ed, Incredulous? I think your assumption of playing the best first is a bit skew-ed. When I moved to San Jose, I was fortunate enough to query a poker dealer when the golf subject came up. He was insightful enough to inform me that if I joined the NCGA, I could play Poopy for $45. While I had known about and looked forward to playing the resort three, my pocketbook wouldn't allow me to even consider them. Every trip I made to monterey included a stop at poopy and I was more than satisfied.

As far as querying others, your approach is a good one but I would add more questions about other non-golf related topics to get a better perspective on their tastes for other important life affirming activities. This works well at and about restraunts, too.

[Dan Grossman]

Ed,

I don't think you can make the blanket statement that you have to play the "best" courses when going somewhere.  I think it depends on who you are going with, whether you think you will be back and cost.  For example, I was in Scotland for 9 days last August, and I didn't play Prestwick, Troon, Turnberry, Dornoch, TOC or North Berwick.

However, I did play 18 rounds of golf over there and I don't regret the fact that I didn't play the "worldbeaters."  (I did manage to play Western Gailes, Cruden Bay, Royal Aberdeen, Murcar, Kingsbarns, Elie, Carnoustie, Loch Lomond, etc.)  I decided that the trip clearly wasn't going to be my last, so my friend and I decided to play courses that were a little more off the beaten path.  I view Prestwick, Troon, Turnberry, TOC, Muirfield as "easy" to play.  You just have to be prepared to drop lots of cash.  We decided that since it was just the two of us, we would play courses that we wouldn't be able to get a big group of golfers interested in playing.

[Stan Dodd]

I would echo Dan.  We don't always have the $ or the connections to play the big name courses when we travel.Having played numerous 50+ rounds in Scotalnd there ae still some of the great ones yet to play (Because I will go again) but I would not trade the experiences on the Panmure's , Kieriemure, Alyths, Crails, Elie for anything.  Sometime reading on this DG it seems like people just try and check off name courses on their life lst and don't just enjoy the game.
Poppy for $45 or PG for $32 and a great dinner with my wife vs Pebble for 325 is an easy decision for me. (are you reading wifey )
Cheers
Stan

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I appreciate those who are well read on the subject. And those who have a focus in visiting golf courses. For example you will find many who are golf course collectors, playing courses that are well known or highly rated. I differenciate the collector from the few who search out the works of particular architects and who study their courses - including those less known courses - with a purpose, to learn as much about a particular architect's design style and/or tendencies. Sometimes you can learn more about golf architects and architecture from the lesser known courses than you can from the famous ones.

[allysmith]

Surely guys beauty is in the eye of the Beholder!

When one considers their enjoyment of a course it is not always because one has played the course as it was intended by the architect.

I think that sometimes we over simplify our difinition of a golfer.

If a course is played by Mr 18-28 handicap it is highly unlikely he played it as the architect designed it on a purist ideal. A good architect, however will have built in an element of enjoyment for all to savour.

Is a 66 year old 18 handicapper going to enjoy having to carry 200yds over a ravine to an elevated green, probably not but Mr 0 - 5 will.

I am being a little opinionated in this but I feel that as a sport the Golfer of any level should rate a course on the thrill of the challenge.

Ok shoot me down!! Im probably wrong

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ally Smith,

You make a valid point, but beware of the elitists  

[THuckaby2]

DAMN well said, Dave.

I agree with Dave's take 100% and have never seen this expressed better... and this is another of the points I have tried to make MANY times in this dg.

To put this in NorCal terms, if I have a choice between playing San Jose Muni (which has to make the Glenview park district course look like Shinnecock Hills) or not playing at all, I am never gonna sit home and wish I was at Cypress.

Oh yes, golf is golf ALL THE TIME.  We are indeed golf snobs here and the playing of the game gets forgotten all too often.

To that end, two days ago I played a course that was reviled by several in this dg not all that long ago... and fully enjoyed myself, spent the whole round thinking "what is so wrong with this course?"  No, it's not the best in its area, not even close.  But then again, it's in a tough area... It's called Pasadera CC and it's in Monterey, CA.  Nicklaus course, cart-ball but fun as can be.

TH

ps - there are approximately 300 reasons why someone would play Poppy Hills instead of Pebble Beach.  $$$$

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Is the ability to enjoy even the most mundane golf course a key attribute when considering someone's golf architectural IQ?

[THuckaby2]

Tom:  No, obviously not.  Plenty of people enjoy golf no matter where it is played, but you're not gonna trust their judgment on whether a course is worth your time or not just based on that!  It could be this is all they know....

Don't take too far what Dave is saying and I so whole-heartedly agree with.  Obviously, one would trust the golf snob quite more in this area than the muni-only player.  However, moderation in all things is good... Someone who plays nothing but Pine Valley is obviously going to be unimpressed with way too much of the golf world to take their opinion all that seriously also!

TH

[johnk]

A practical piece of advice for all you NorCal GCAers:

GO PLAY POPPY THIS WEEK!

I just played on Sat. morning - the greens are the best
they've ever been, and the fairways are as dry as they
get there - not firm and fast, but still nice.

Played with two vacationers who couldn't believe
how much better than Pebble - faster and truer
the Poppy greens were.  Hats off to Manny Sousa
and crew.

They aerate on Oct 1.

[ed_getka]

Dan, Dave, Toms, et al.,
 I am not trying to be elitist in what I'm saying. I'm just too illiterate to make my point in an understandable way. Let me try again. If I travel 2,000-3,000 miles (or more) with the express intent of playing at least a couple of rounds of golf, I simply can't believe most of us wouldn't play at least one universally well-regarded course. I am speaking of the public access golf since that is the bulk of my golf. I have had the good fortune of playing some very fine private courses due to the generosity of others here, but I am NOT including those in this discussion. So here I am near San Francisco, and I travel to North Carolina, which I will only do a few times in my life most probably. I am going to play Pinehurst #2 or Pine Needles to see what makes those courses so well-regarded. Does that mean those are the only courses I am going to play? NO, it does not, but if I know I won't be near these courses more than a few times in my life I want to see them. I could play ANY course with any 3 GCA guys I have met and have a GREAT day, so it is NOT just about the course for me to have a good time. I played today at Monarch Bay out here with Dan Grossman, Kevin Reilly and Mike Benham and had a BLAST, in spite of the course which I would rate a 4 on the Doak scale. But when travelling far afield the emphasis is different. I am a BIG believer in getting value for my golf, but that is NOT the main criteria in where I play when travelling far afield. For example, if I travel from the east coast out to  Monterey, I am going to play Pebble, in spite of the price tag. When I paid $225 years ago I gulped hard when I handed over that green fee. Was it WORTH it? NO, but I wanted to see it at least once in my life. I think it is an outstanding course, but it exceeds my idea of what a good value is and it is NEVER going to get cheaper so I played it with my brother to maximize my enjoyment and to preclude having to play it again and pay that green fee on a separate occasion. Does that mean Poppy Hills sucks? NO, I think it is a solid course and I would recommend it to someone travelling from out of town, especially on a value basis (with Pacific Grove back nine getting an even higher recommendation), but NOT above Pebble, Spy, Pasatiempo, or maybe even Spanish Bay in purely architectural terms.

I still have failed to make a coherent point, but I'm too tired to try any more right now.  

[THuckaby2]

Ed:  of course, when travelling to a destination, it is wise to play the best course you can.

I believe all Dave and I were saying is that there are often reasons why people choose to play courses that go far beyond "what is the architectural best"?  For example, if one has a trip to New York, he'd love to play Winged Foot, Shinnecock, NGLA, etc. but if he has no connections he can't.  So if he "chooses" to suffer the slings and arrows and take three days and play Bethpage, is that somehow wrong?  You could ask "why didn't you play Shinnecock" obviously.. but that isn't his reality.

Many of us are very fortunate to have access to these great places... but many aren't, also.  Money does have a lot to do with these choices as well...

So I can "forgive" the guy who "chooses" to play Poppy Hills.  There is just so much that goes into this and we have to many realities...

But what do I know?  All I care about is amenities and clubhouses and cigars, so take what I say with an ocean of salt.

Sorry about that.  The Emperor's words on that other thread still sting.  

TH

[ed_getka]

Tom,
  I'm only talking about PUBLIC access courses. I would certainly never deride the choice someone made by citing private courses that the vast majority of golfers can never hope to play.

When you made your first trip to Ireland what courses did you play?

[THuckaby2]

Understood, Ed.  I just used the NY courses as an extreme example.  But even among public courses, there still are choices to be made and they do go far beyond the architectural.  Perhaps the guy couldn't get a tee time at Pebble or Spyglass... it is quite difficult... maybe he knew a NCGA member and wanted to save some money... you get what I'm saying I'm sure.

My first trip to Ireland I was there to drink Guinness and see the country.  I did play golf - once - Mahoneys Point course at Kilallarney Golf & Fishing Club.  Loved it.

When I went back years later for just golf, hell yes we played all the great links we could.  But even then choices had to be made, and they were not based on architecture alone...

TH

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