[Mike_Young]

Reading the "Rustic Canyon" thread.....seems pretty common oocurence to me.   Seems to me that golf courses have always evolved to the level that was economically feasible for the particular course.  So many courses that are talked about on here don't make money...now they may create RE value and promote the sale of RE or there may be the ones that are older and have already been thru the process of evolving economically.  
IMHO there are so many golf courses in this country that make money and have very loyal followings but would not be looked at twice by many on here as to their architectural values.
Today we are seeing some of the courses that were built in the 90's evolve economically.  I think you can spot it by looking for the following:
1.  Greens begin to be triplexed and in some cases a day is skipped each week..collars and areas around green and between bunkers evolve to where they can accomodate 71 inch trim mowers...
2.  Bunkers are edged less and cape areas become raked less and eventual sand lines equate to where machine can rake...in other words..bunkers become more oval or rounded or grassed....(the present "jagged edges" are a fad that is only native in specific areas and is costly in most others)
3.  Elimination of bunkers toward the ingress/egress of proven entrance areas from cartpaths
4.  Fairways become smaller and as irrigation heads need replacing they are brought down to under 500 count (in the SE area thast is the number)....
5.  Tees are cut higher and less....
6.  Chipping areas become rough height
SO....IMHO there are courses that can absorb this type of thing much easier than others.....EX:  a Pinehurst #2 can absorb much more of these treatments than one of the new "jagged" courses.....
Others??

[Anthony_Nysse]

Mike,
  To a degree I agree with you, but I'd also have to say that alotof private clubs in the SW seem to be doing well. In fact in my 3 years here on Hilton Head, changes that required more labor at Long Cove and other courses include:

   Courses mowing the fairway cleanup pass with a triplex mower for the clean, smooth edge. In fact, I know of courses that walk mow the fairway cleanup.
  Courses that have a "no dew" policy. Meaning, tees, greens, fairways and approaches are mowed every morning and roughs are dragged.
   Courses that now hand rakes bunkers EVERY morning, 7 days a week.
   Courses that walk mow tees, greens, and approaches that didn't 3 years ago.
   Courses that have tifeagle or tifdwarf tees, and approaches.
   Rountinely double cutting and rolling greens almost everyday.
   Having "Pine Cone Crews" That's all they do-pick up pine cones.
  Courses doing renovation work to their bunkers so the fairways and golf balls FALL into them.
   Courses ADDING more irrigation to lagoon banks as to be able to water native areas or have grass all the way to the lagoon's edge.
 
  I think that your comments VERY much depend on the area of the country. Seems to me like alot of private course's budgets are going up with higher demands and that demands are being acheived.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
   
   

[Chris Cupit]

Mike I hear what you're saying but as one of those new "ragged edge bunker courses" I think it is possible to maintain certain standards as long as you know what you are getting yourself into.

Also, it does require the committment of ownership and management to make sure that what was conceived of is maintained.

When we began our project we decided we wanted to accomplish certain goals:

1.  Greens that were interesting and highly contoured but that would allow us to maintain them at speeds such as 9.5 that would allow for higher height of cut and we think healthier grass at far less maintnenance expense.

2.  Our maintenance focus is on first greens (walk mowed), next tees (triplex)  and lastly the grass from the middle of the fairway (gang units) and working out (nothing at times).  

3.  We converted acres of grass to natural areas that will  need far less care than the wall to wall bermudagrass of before.  

4.  Bunkers are jagged and we will not be edging them--a huge expense at many courses.  We have "educated" our membership about the nature of hazards and we will not seek to maintain "perfection" in bunkers.  We will rake less frequently than before and if the membership does not rake the bunkers they may end up with a very bad lie--heavan forbid!

5.  Our fairways that used to be mowed with lightweight Ransome units are now mowed with 5 and (rough) 7 gang units.

Our renovation will result in a modest increase in our budget but combined with costs that will decrease (irrigation repairs the year before our project were close to $50k!) and constant drainage problems we will now offer a far superior product at a budget of around $750k--very "reasonable for private clubs in north Atlanta.

Also, our renovation has seen our membership roster spike and even if we increased fees for our dues 4-5% we are still able to charge far less to offer golf at our club than any competitor within a 30 minute drive.  Part of the luxury of our pricing was that we could complete the renovation knowing that demand in our area was inelastic enough to support a modest price increase.

I do agree and understand that any project that begins as a "top of the line" one in every aspect of the operation has to be quite confident that that type of product is sustainable in their market espicially in bad times which are inevitable.

We had 33 years of history when making our decisions and that kind of experience is of course priceless.  

Personally I love it when one of my "fancier" competitiors has to drop their ID to compete for members--they shoot for the moon and raised price and expectations and now must endure a lot of unhappy members who see the "latecomers" getting in at far better deals and their old standards of excellence taking a hit due to financial neccesity.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

As mentioned, the golf market is too broad to have any general trends, but for the course that provide golf for the majority of americans at a price they can continue to pay, you are spot on.  Its the same trend we saw in the 1970's IMHO.  The roaring 90's were similar to the roaring 20's in the quality of golf built, and the similar disregard for maintenance costs.  

Sooner or later, it all comes down to money, and that will again cause many courses to change their character.  In the big picture, the average golfer would rather have $5 less dues than 30 more "random bunkers" that look great, or the additional quality of hand mowed greens......

[Mike_Young]

Tony,
We agree....except that I think the courses you see and are experiencing are in a resort/RE area and they are the exception...not the norm...
Chris,
I am not disagreeing with your thought process...except for bunkers,
In Madison we are also walk mowing greens and tees but decided we would rather 7gang 11blade reelmaster our fairways all the way out the the edges so that we could justify walking tees and greens...
me...I think if you do't edge bunkers they will change and creep....in the south , in clay it is much more difficult to have a ragged bunker because you are maintaining sand on clay and to do so you need a definite edge whether lined or sandbagged and you have to honor that edge..... yet in a sand base you can do all sorts of things with a jagged edge....JMO...I say they don't reman in the south more than 10 years....
But I think your thought process works well in ATL......there is a huge need for such a product.....

[Mike_Young]

Can clubs with a good course in decent shape operate on 600 members paying $2000 a year subs?  

Ciao

no doubt

[Mike_Young]

Can clubs with a good course in decent shape operate on 600 members paying $2000 a year subs?  

Ciao

no doubt

Mike

Perhaps I am mistaken, but my impression is that cheap and cheerful clubs are far and few between.  If this is the case I reckon there must be a bigger divide between private club expectations and public course expectations than I previously thought.  

$1.2 million doesn't sound that much to me for running a club.  I reckon it has to be a member owned deal or nobody would take it on.  How would a budget of $1.2 breakdown for a modest club with a good course in decent shape someplace where winter closes the course down for 4-5 months a year?  How would the budget compare to a club open all year?

Sorry to be Mr. questions, but I find this stuff fascinating.  For all we talk about architecture it is matters like this which really move the game.

Ciao

Sean,
In the SE there are plenty of clubs that have much less than 1.2 mill in revenues.
If a club charges $30 per round and gets 40,000 rounds they bring in 1.2 mill.  I was a partner in a club in a town of 150,000 population in 20 mile radius....we could operate the club and maintenance for $650,000 including taxes and insurance....pay a note payment of around $250,000 and make $300,000 profit at 1.2 mill...now we were charging around $40 and doing 30,000....BUT we built it for under 3 mill with a small clubhouse, a lady that ran the cash register and made chicken salad and a good supt.....problems start with a bigger clbhouse, 5 million construction budget and cart boys meeting you in the parking lot with a towel.....

[Adam Clayman]

Reading the "Rustic Canyon" thread.....seems pretty common oocurence to me.   Seems to me that golf courses have always evolved to the level that was economically feasible for the particular course.  

Mike,
 Is the "occurance" shaving the Maintenance budget? Or, Relenting to the loudest customer demands?

If I'm not mistaken, the case of Rustic Canyon's is even more bizzare because of the huge revenues generated in such a short period of time after it opened. The numbers I recall were 6m in 18 months.

The query becomes why does an owner fix something that isn't broken by straying away from the original design's maintenance meld?

In the case of Rustic Canyon and our beloved Wild Horse, I view it as bad form, similar to not dancing with what brought you.

[Chris Cupit]

Sean,

Even with 4-5 months of down time, I think $1.2 Million is dues is a little low.  Dues of $2000 per year ($166 per month) are not going to sustain many clubs in most markets.

In the Atlanta market, I would say that a private club with 600 members would need closer to $2M in dues revenue alone.  That's monthly dues of $277 which in Atlanta is still below average.  

FYI a 2005 Dues and fees study of 22 higher end clubs in north Atlanta showed they had an average monthly dues of $425.39!  If you added in all the additional mandatory fees (locker plans, range plans, minimums) and any mandatory capital charges or assessments the monthly mandatory charges of these clubs equaled $491.39!!

My club has monthly dues of $259 and with "junk fees" a mandatory monthly charge of $290 for a full family membership.  There are fewer and fewer affordable clubs like myself and that is an absolute shame for the game of golf.  

Other affordable clubs have sold for development (Lanier Golf Club, Canterberry CC, Metropolitan GC, Centenial CC) and the others of us seem to be doing fine--Indian Hills CC, Northwood CC.  There is an attempt to bring a model of multiple memberships in a group of clubs that was a successful model on the south side of Atlanta to the northside.  A group owns 16-18 courses and for a $750 ID and monthly dues of $150 or so you have access to all the clubs for varying fees.

Problem with this concept is that you end up with 4,000+ memebrs sharing courses and it is not really private club golf--gorified daily fee which is fine for many but not the experience the guy is seeking that wants a true "home club".

The old model for private clubs is still this: your dues money goes to operational expenses, your initiation fees to capital improvements and then additional fees (carts, f&b, guest fees) are where a club can make their profit from its operations.

Cheap and cheerful is difficult.  Actually I believe the easiest thing to do in terms of keeping people happy is to offer the best of everyhting as long as the people will pay.  There is nothing difficult about meeeting expectations when all you do is provide "the best" and charge accordingly.

The real difficulty is working with a discerning customer that wants value.  His expectations are of Trump National (where he maybe played on his company's expense account) but when he has to "come off of his own hip" he wants to pay less.  That guy is much harder to please.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Sean I agree with Mike on the number and variety of good lower budget clubs in the US. My home Lafayette, La club budget is over $4,000,000. Dues bring in 600 member times $3,000.00 a year or $1.8 of that total. We are on the high side of the midrange clubs. Mike I agree with you on the opportunity for courses to make money with some play off your ideas.

[Mike_Young]

Adam,
Say there were 60000 rounds in 18 months...that would be $100 per round and most likely would mean a green fee of around $125 so that you could average $100 fee once all comps and discounts were applied.  
I would also assume that the first 18 months was a lot of "1 time...try me  " rounds....and not repeat business....if it were to become repeat business odds are it would be at some type of annual fee or membership which would equate to a much lower fee per round....
Most businesses relent to the loudest customer demands....and that can include lowering maintenance ....BUT I have no idea of any specifics at RC..never been there....just know the free enterprise system works and have seen it in play at other places....

[Mike_Young]

Sean, chris, tiger,,
I am speaking of clubs thru out the SE.  Chris is speaking of the ATL market of which there are only maybe 20 or so markets like it in the country.
I can show you good clubs throughout GA where the dues are $100 and course is good as is the club...Dublin CC comes to mind...Tiger, when we did Links on the Bayou in alexandria , La...Jim Lipe was building Oakwing across the street....small town and I think the private club in town was less than $100 dues and around $1500 initiation fee.  The fact is the market will make the determination for you when it comes to golf clubs and in small town america there are a lot of good servicable small clbs that have made it work at much less than many can imagine.  In Athens our dues are arond $280 with $22000 initation...59,000 sq ft clubhouse and 1100 members...$6million revenues....so our basic output per year is less than $3600 for basics....

[Chris Cupit]

Mike,

Funny you mention Dublin CC.  I have a member with family there and every year I call and they let him play the Friday after Thanksgiving and he loves it.

I don't know how Atlanta got so screwed up--must be all the bluedicks that keep coming down!

[Adrian_Stiff]

From the UK point of view, we work on relatively small figures, typical UK golf clubs have annual memberships of $1200 and say 500 full members with perhaps another 200 junior/ 5 days/ restricted members lets say paying half, thats about $720,000. Clubhouse revenue just about washes its face and UK clubs budget to just get through each year. When theu need new Irrigation renewals the clubs very often hike a levy of $150 for a couple of years and the members complain and some even leave. 90% of clubs would exist with a +10/-10 range of this, our budgets, crews are very small.
The basic problem with UK golf now is that some people (often the older members) play 150 times a year while some members only play 30... they all pay the same and to the lower user his annual fee is now starting to hurt a bit. Over the last 10-15 years golfers play at lot at other clubs in society meets, so the 50 rounds a year man may only be playing half of them over his own course. At my course we need $22 per round to break even, we have a membership at $180 per year then $36 per round, casual play/ normal g/fee is $80. You can have traditional membership if you play a lot at $1500 per year, we have 1 guy plays 300 rounds, you can twist the figures and say hes costing us $17 per round, you certainly could not survive if you had 100 of these members..the solution perhaps is a smaller annual fee and then a user fee. Our average UPR comes out at $60 but we are only doing 26,000 rounds pa.
As a UK architect I have not had a financial disaster course they all make money, but I cant design some of the very lovely things I see on here because of the maintenance restraints, I almost work backwards in my design thought process as to what can the client expect to get from his green fees and then produce a course within those restraints.
The best money makers are sadly often the very worse golf courses and equally as someone eluded too it usually all goes wrong when you are met with someone with a towell in the car park. Statistically over the last 15-20 years 86% or something of new golf courses have gotten into trouble financially, in the main though its the clubhouse overspend thats kippered them, stripping down the figures the clubhouse aspect is very expensive to operate and seldom makes money.

[Chris Cupit]

Adrian,

Very interesting.  I have also considered the idea of lower fees but then higher user fees for the "avid" player.

One idea that I think has a lot of merit is the notion of "reverse vesting" of initiation fees.  By that I mean that instead of refunding initiation fees to long time members we should really do the opposite.  

Structure an initiation fee that is refundable if a member leaves early on in the life of the membership.  This might encourage the prospective member to go ahaead and join without the fear that they will move or get transferred and "lose" their investment.  Also this might help clubs that have felt they need to keep discounting initiation fees to attract members.

Those members that have stayed and enoyed the club 7 years or more have gotten their monies worth and should not expect any money back if they leave?!  They would lose their initiation fee forever.

Another idea of lowering annual fees but charging more for the avid golfer may be more problematic.  Everyone that joins, particularly a more affordable club, has "done the match" and anticpates or justifies the membership because they are certain they will get their monies worth through a lot of use.  

The first month's bills of new members is fun to watch--always very high and after the sticker shock hits them they "slow down" a bit.  

Anyway, if the avid golfer who is considering making the leap to a private feels that the more he plays the less advantageous pricewise it is for him, I think that could hurt subscriptions.

I like the idea and just think it may make better practical sense when applied to initiation fees than to monthly ones--at least over here.

Cheers

[Mike_Young]

From the UK point of view, we work on relatively small figures, typical UK golf clubs have annual memberships of $1200 and say 500 full members with perhaps another 200 junior/ 5 days/ restricted members lets say paying half, thats about $720,000. Clubhouse revenue just about washes its face and UK clubs budget to just get through each year. When theu need new Irrigation renewals the clubs very often hike a levy of $150 for a couple of years and the members complain and some even leave. 90% of clubs would exist with a +10/-10 range of this, our budgets, crews are very small.
The basic problem with UK golf now is that some people (often the older members) play 150 times a year while some members only play 30... they all pay the same and to the lower user his annual fee is now starting to hurt a bit. Over the last 10-15 years golfers play at lot at other clubs in society meets, so the 50 rounds a year man may only be playing half of them over his own course. At my course we need $22 per round to break even, we have a membership at $180 per year then $36 per round, casual play/ normal g/fee is $80. You can have traditional membership if you play a lot at $1500 per year, we have 1 guy plays 300 rounds, you can twist the figures and say hes costing us $17 per round, you certainly could not survive if you had 100 of these members..the solution perhaps is a smaller annual fee and then a user fee. Our average UPR comes out at $60 but we are only doing 26,000 rounds pa.
As a UK architect I have not had a financial disaster course they all make money, but I cant design some of the very lovely things I see on here because of the maintenance restraints, I almost work backwards in my design thought process as to what can the client expect to get from his green fees and then produce a course within those restraints.
The best money makers are sadly often the very worse golf courses and equally as someone eluded too it usually all goes wrong when you are met with someone with a towell in the car park. Statistically over the last 15-20 years 86% or something of new golf courses have gotten into trouble financially, in the main though its the clubhouse overspend thats kippered them, stripping down the figures the clubhouse aspect is very expensive to operate and seldom makes money.

Adrian,
your thoughts and ideas are not that different than 12000 of the clubs in the US.  UNDERSTAND...when you come on this site, it discusses mainly California and NE US golf with a few Midwest( notice how quickly the pictures of a course such as the Chris C's went to the second page)  if it had been in an area the group accepted it would have been on front page for 3 or 4 days........most have no concept of how the majority of golf courses in this country function....
The areas this site diuscusses the most usually have sand bases and cool season grasses.....where most courses over here get into problems is when we try to emulate such features in areas where they were not meant to be...such as bentgrass in the South....etc...features you may consider simple in the UK can cost much to emulate here....
golf courses meld to a formula that will work....many times over here building courses with geographically funtional features is equated to lack of talent in design....and it might be just the opposite....JMO

[Adrian_Stiff]

Chris, I have often wondered if you could say drop the joining /entrance fee and surcharge the annual fee over a 5 year period;  say the annual fees are $2500 per year but if you are a member after 5 years you get 20% discount. In the UK people dont like the sign on, and its got so expensive now that many clubs give you time to pay anyway.

You can always try a mixture of a FLAT FEE for unlimited annual play coupled with a $200 a year fee + a green fee, and even introduce $500 or $1000 + green fee levels.
At my course we are £850 per year but have a £552 per year level where if members want to play early mornings or after 4.30 they can play in these periods. Our aim is to keep the period of time 10-2.30 relatively member free and where we can sale green fee/ society play and achieve $75 UPR, but we accept that early morning we may only be getting $30 UPR.
Prospective members will find their most economical route to play, the downside and upside with the very low priced $200 + a green fee is that you get lots of members that dont play, but equally a lot do not rejoin.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The basic problem with UK golf now is that some people (often the older members) play 150 times a year while some members only play 30... they all pay the same and to the lower user his annual fee is now starting to hurt a bit. Over the last 10-15 years golfers play at lot at other clubs in society meets, so the 50 rounds a year man may only be playing half of them over his own course. At my course we need $22 per round to break even, we have a membership at $180 per year then $36 per round, casual play/ normal g/fee is $80. You can have traditional membership if you play a lot at $1500 per year.

Adrian

I agree that the big problem for most folks in the UK is the joining fee.  I didn't change clubs because I didn't want to pay the fee and I know others won't join a club at all for this reason.  True, many clubs offer to spread the cost of the fee over a few years and it has solved financial problems for the moment.  I really like your idea of paying $180 a year plus a green fee.  The problem is this model tends to operate at semi-privates.  If my club offered that deal I would take it so long as there were no time restrictions.  

One thing that I really hate are societies!  They often play twice in a day during prime time on a Friday.  I would happily pay more money to keep Fridays open and have only one society day a week.

Ideally, I would prefer to offer one membership category for adults - full member.  Unfortunately times are a changin.  

BTW $80 is a pretty hefty visitor fee and would not fly at many courses in our area.  What is the name of your club?

Ciao

Sean, The Players Club. its £45 in our money (thats Summer rate) We have a £100 a year membership then £20 green fee. In 4 years we have generated 2800 members but probably lost 1600 of them..roughly 400 per year join and 400 leave. Its definetly a fair way to pay for golf, but I accept many like the flat once a year fee. www.theplayersgolfclub.com

[Bill_McBride]

Sean I agree with Mike on the number and variety of good lower budget clubs in the US. My home Lafayette, La club budget is over $4,000,000. Dues bring in 600 member times $3,000.00 a year or $1.8 of that total. We are on the high side of the midrange clubs. Mike I agree with you on the opportunity for courses to make money with some play off your ideas.

Tiger, what makes up the remaining $2.2 million of your revenue?  Cheeseburgers and beers?  That's a big delta!

[Jim Nugent]

And why is the budget for Tiger's club $4 million, where others come in under a million?  Clubhouse, land costs, etc?

[Jason McNamara]

And why is the budget for Tiger's club $4 million, where others come in under a million?  Clubhouse, land costs, etc?

Some of it is for orange Gatorade in the coolers out on the course, iirc.

Jason

[Bill_McBride]

As long as all you club managers, supers etc, are here on this thread, maybe someone can enlighten me about why I am unable to convince our young superintendent to cut that rough in front of our fairway bunkers so balls can run into them and not hang up?

Is there an additional cost to mow the fairways like this?

Is there potential damage to the equipment or the front of the bunkers mowing this area at fairway height?

Will I ever find true love?

[Mark Chaplin]

Tiger - if $3000 is high side for a mid range club in the US what sort of money do high end clubs charge?

If they are anything like the old money clubs in the UK I guess the likes of NGLA, Merion, etc aren't very expensive for the members or is that an incorrect assumption?

In my experiences over the last two or three years a good private members club in the London area is around US$2500-$3500, a good south east healthland course $2500-$3000 average English members course $900-$1800 right down to Machrihanish at around $400 and we all know what a St.Andrews resident pays!

Mark

[Bill_McBride]

I think a typical US private club has dues in the $300-360 a month range, plus a lot of add ons -- locker, club storage, some cart rentals, food and lots of beverage.  During the season my club bill is seldom under $800/ month.  Then the second club adds $185/month unless I'm there and then it's $600.  So private club membership adds up.

It's a commitment to a lifestyle you want to pursue and enjoy pursuing.

I'm fortunate in that my wife also plays a lot so that's for two.  

[John Keenan]

On the issue of Private Clubs I cannot help but wonder what the future is for the non Grade A clubs in major Metros.

I live in the Bay Area and I am amazed to see memberships in clubs being offered in the newspaper or on Craigslist. Not the O Club  or SF or Lake Merced but other nice courses that are a cut below. As membership ages or moves they seem unable to attract  enough new members. Is their future to be sold as land for RE development or to become semi-private?

I thnk this tier of clubs faces some tough issues as daily fee course improve.

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