[Will E]

Calusa Pines
Naples, FL

[Anthony_Nysse]

David Kelly,
  Be careful about your "to hell with the masses" comment until you've played the likes of Hidden Creek, East Hampton and especially Friar's Head...wow, that place is amazing and will be a fix for all up coming architects in the future. Everything has been and is being done right there.  I think that Diamond Springs stands a chance for "Best New Affordable" It's the Mike Devries design outside Grand Rapids MI. I'd consider it the Wild Horse of MI!!

[Joel_Stewart]

There are 3 catagories for Golf Digest best new courses, affordable, upscale and private.  I have a hard time debating the list when it comes out because I will have played only a few of the winners.  Last year I was very surprised when both Coyote Moon in Lake Tahoe and Barona in San Diego didn't even make the top 10.

My point is Rustic Canyon is not a sure bet (I haven't played it) but know just from experience that other courses is other regions (like Diamond Springs in Michigan) are tough competition.

[Tim Weiman]

Geoff,

Speaking of affordability, this afternoon I went down to my local muni and paid $11 to play nine holes, something I do  about once a week during the golf season.

"Big Met" is nothing special even by Cleveland Metropark standards. But, it is a great place to maintain perspective about golf and "the masses".

One of my playing partners today grew up in Cleveland, but after graduating from college about twenty years ago he moved to the Dallas area. This gentlemen talked about something he loves about golf in Cleveland: the Mom and Pop courses. He said that the typical green fee of around $15-20 was what allowed him to play golf, especially when he was young.

He went on to say that he was concerned with the direction of golf in Dallas, specifically the fact that the course he enjoyed raised the green fees to $38, so he really couldn't afford to play it anymore.

If all of Tom Huckaby's friends enjoy the CCFAD thing, that's fine. I just hope you won't lose sight of how many good people out there want a totally different product.

[SS]

Another check mark for Rustic Canyon. An extremely fun experience. The strategy required is like nothing I have ever played . It gave me a much better understanding of what those that subscribe to the Tommy N shool of architecture are talking about. Definitely the best way to play golf. Have any of the Rustic regulars figured the shots that work best on #4 and #6.            

                              Sam Saenz

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sam,
I better answer your question before I rip TH a new one and completely lose sight of everything.

I keep telling David Kelly, David Moriarity and Lynn that the best way to play #4 is the low running hook. At least for most of the pin positions we have played. It may be nothing more then another GREAT shot in regards to touch and feel, but I still see everyone trying to fly the ball to the hole which of course is a huge mistake. and usually results in the wind pushing the ball short or swaying it left into the inviting bunkers.

The funny thing about the hole is originally I thought it would be very Redan like. (shows you how much I know) when in fact it is more Eden like--just minus the green front bunkering. Could this be an original par 3 hole for the ages? An "Arroyo" hole?
(Just some fun thought:))

Now about the 6th.......

I have by accident, tried to fly the left, and though it failed to reach the green, it has offered some pretty interesting opportunities to save par. You see, it really isn't as long as it might seem to the hole from the blue and black tees. However, if you just so happen to be just a little to far left........I wish there was some emoticon for a skull and cross bones!

Playign the hole from the right however offers quite a many opportunity. You can be short, and have a really fun shot by having to negotiate the Biarritz-style swale, and it really isn't that hard of a shot, especially to a front pin as well as a back left. If one succesfully runs the ball through the swale, it turns left just past and runs to the hole. You can also go for the pin on this hole, and the majority of the people do attempt it both successfully and unsuccessfully.

It is the perfect Leap Of Faith.

What Golf Digest Panlists like Tom Huckaby fail to understand is that Rustic Canyon is how the game was intended to be played without the hoopla that has ruined the game. there are no watefalls, no headset wearing, acne faced youngsters wanting a $5.00 tip to clean your clubs, and even better, no need for Forecaddies to look for lost balls on golf holes that 20 foot wide and are framed with tall grasses unatural to the site.

But fear not Tom H. RC has recently upped their rates $5.00, so this will hopefully keep your golfing friends even further away. (which ironically are the same type of golfing friends that I have--clueless to what they game ever meant to them other then a popularity statement.) I guess what I'm trying to say is that why do these people even play the game? Surely it couldn't be just so they could add more to their resumes of courses played could it?

They can have Lost Canyons!

Tony Nysse,
You and I both know what is GREATEST on the scene of modern golf today. Rustic Canyon or the newest Mike DeVries course in Grand Rapids doesn't even compare. However, in a TRUE golf starved SoCal, Rustinc Canyon is everything we could have ever hoped it to be, not just for its green fee, but the effort that went into desiging and building it. It would bring a tear to the eye of Tom Simpson, H.N. Wethered, Dr. A. MacKenzie, Harry Colt, William Flynn, Geo C. Thomas, Hugh Wilson, Billy Bell, Max Behr and every other I failed to mention simply because it is one of the GREAT public daily fee courses ever built.

But I also haave to disqualify myself because I'm biased!

(and that to me is a good thing!)

Tom H, Please stop this nonsensical bantering about yoru friends and GD Panels and the like. Yo have to come play with our group tosee that all of this isn't about what you scored, but how you played the game. It can't get any simpler then that. Any GREAT golf course is a testament to being able to entertain all of the masses with both challenge and integrity, and it just isn't possible to see where the GREATNESS lies in a 1 1/2 tour or just one round. Rustic Canyon simply grows on you and you can't hardly wait to get back to take some of those damn hard holes on again and again. Certainly that has to be a defining factor in any ranking.

The Fat Man has spoken.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, Not to beat your horse to death, but I get tired of hearing that old nag yours snore.

You have unsuccessfully not convinced me of your sincerity in regards to this subject. (Actually it is more of a PC flip-flop)

Lets see now, you have told us before that your aren't a purist, but yet you can take a purist point of view and say that Rustic Canyon will entertain them.

-How do you know what a purist is if you aren't one?
-What was the purist's mission statement?
-Who hired these purists?
-How many purists does it take to screw in a light bulb?
-What was the light bulbs mission statement?

(OK, my attempt to jokingly mock one Patrick Mucci has probably fallen on deaf ears, but I'm trying to find some humor in this. Ultimately I'm trying to prove that through all of it is that its funny how you will piss on Pasatiempo for a $135.00 green fee, a place where one can not only experience the legacy of one of the GREATEST names in golf, but that you would actually say that Lost Canyons, a course that charges the same price (Not including the forecaddie) and features some of the most typical CCFAD golf SoCalfornia has to offer, yet, is close to unplayable for most as well as the prime example of golf course architecture run amuck I have seen to date---is more attractable because of all of the nonsense.

You seem to not be able to believe that Lost Canyons is in horrible shape financially. The place is like a ghost town just like all of the other courses that were conceived just like it.

Also, it isn't what is in the ground for you and your bretheren, its whats around it and how you scored on it. It has nothing to do with golf architecture but everything to do with entertainment--just like the $100,000+ year luxuory box at PacBell that serves crab cakes but forgoes the hot dogs. Heaven forbid that one would have to enjoy such meager offerings. You wouldn't be able to say, "Hey, we sat in a luxuory box/Hey we played Lost Canyons" Its funny, but I figured you to be much more wise to the hype of such a mediocre place. That is exactly what Lost Canyons is. Shadow Course--BAD Sky Course-Medicore.

Go ahead and keep on believing it all.

Just a point of question, How much money did you spend inside the Lost Canyons clubhouse?

I think it is funny, that the GREATEST course I have ever seen in my lifetime, the Old Course of St. Andrews doesn't have to rely on all of the same nonsense as Lost Canyons to be GREAT.

Meanwhile if you want to catch me, I'll be at Rustic Canyon with my purist buddies enjoying the game I love most in one of the most dramatic golf settings of Southern Calfornia that doesn't have to rely on quarry walls or oceans to dictate the experience. I'll take one of the beautiful Rustic Canyon evenings, where we practically have the course to ourselves, can replay puts we missed over and over, as well as experience that faint glimpse of a pulse that the game has left that you unfortunatley cannot see or feel.

That is unless you want to join us some Saturday night.

BTW, Last weekend I took the Vice-President's son of the third biggest turn-key industrial contractor in the country to Rustic, and he basically told everyone today at work, all day that he couldn't get the course out of his mind the rest of the weekend. It was unlike anything he has ever played before and he can't wait to get back. He has also played Lost Canyons (both courses) and hated it, calling it anything but a golf course. In fact, when his Dad comes to town next month, he is going to insist that they play there.

Also, to make Dick Daley happy, he is from Wisconsin.

[THuckaby2]

Tommy:  whatever you say.

How can I make you and Geoff believe this is NOT about me?

It really isn't.

And it is really beneath both of you - or at least I thought it was beneath you - that you keep thinking this is about what I did or didn't do at each course.

I never thought this would be necessary, but to clear my good name here, let me state:

1. I've been invited to play Rustic Canyon MANY times.  It would be comped.  I believe I can afford the $40, so I would most definitely pay.  The problem is, I live 400 miles away and have a very busy life so haven't made it down there yet with enough time to play the course.

2. I did stop off and see it - I HAD TO, I was just so curious - but I only had a little time so they were nice enough to give me a cart and let me look around.  Nice thing for them to do.  I did not mention who I was and this whole "rating" crap never came up.  I just asked if I could and they let me.

3. Thus I have nothing but LOVE for Rustic Canyon.

So these personal attacks cause me some bemusement.

All I ever meant to say is that there's a whole world of golfers who love "amenities" and those types are always going to prefer Lost Canyons over Rustic.  I know all too many of them.  Beyond that both Lost Canyons courses have a lot going for them and are a lot of fun - but yes they are overpriced and it doesn't surprise me a lick they are having financial hardhip - the same is occurring with several CCFAD's here in NorCal.

But in any case Tommy, please.  My best personal golf times have nothing to do with amenities, and I look forward to several occurring at Rustic Canyon sooner or later.

No, it won't be with you, most likely, though I'd enjoy that.  I don't need you or Geoff or anyone else to show me a good time and prove anything to me, nor do I really need to prove anything to you.  Aks Geoff's Dad how I am to play golf with.  No, I believe I'll go with my Dad, brother, some good friends... they'll dig it I'm sure, as will I.  I like to share special places with them.  Rustic is special.

I trust that's ok with you.  Oh, I forgot, none of us smokes cigars and we could give a rat's ass about amenities.  We feel pulses in the game that are ours alone... and they do indeed come from the playing of the game, at special places like Rustic.  I guess I've travelled to Scotland and Ireland five times just for cigars and amenities... gone to Nebraska to see huge clubhouses... gee, what a waste of money and time.

So have I proven myself to you, oh Emperor?

This is really sad.

TH

ps - in answer to more of your personal attacks, note that I paid full price for my green fees at Lost Canyons, and I didn't spend a cent in the clubhouse.  We did have lunch and enjoyed it but I won my bet, so that tabbed was picked up by my friend.  HORRORS!  I guess my free lunch bought all my goodwill.

[Evan Fleisher]

I've played a few "new" courses this year...my favorites are:

* Harvester Golf Club, by Keith foster in Rhodes, Iowa.  Great elevation changes, plenty of wind, run up shots everywhere, big greens and good bunkering.  Oh yeah...a good walk, too!

* Beechtree Golf Club, by Tom Doak in Aberdeen, MD.   Not all that new this past year, but new for me, and it was a big Wow!  Loved the feel and flow, very natural setting, and pretty straightforward.  A solid test of golf.

I did play a few other new courses, but not really mentioning here.

[Tom Doak]

It's no wonder passers-by think this site is biased.  Most everyone who's posted on this thread has only seen two or three new courses in the last year, by their favorite architect.  So, while you can answer the question posed above, it's quite a stretch to apply these answers to what is the best new course of the year, don't you think?

[Harbinger]

TD,

    Eyes peeled for a runaway truck!

[THuckaby2]

Well said, Tom.  Very few people do see enough new courses in the course of one year to make any valuable judgments among them... That's why I said I'd just "nominate" Applebrook.  It was on GD best new nominations list and it is a damn fine golf course.  Outside of that, who knows?

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Tom,

To the best of my knowledge, no one is suggesting that a Rustic Canyon or Dallas National is the best new course of the year.  I am not a big Fazio fan, but of the several new courses that I've played this year, this one is my favorite.  I will follow this thread until it dies, and I am sure that most if not all of the courses listed as "best New course you played" would be very enjoyable to play.  The list may become a good guide when travelling to unfamiliar territory.  I surely will try to play Rustic Canyon next time I am in the L.A. area, or Pacific Dunes in Oregon.  Hopefully, in 2003, I will be able to report that Red Raider is the best new course that I have played that year.

[archie]

Yo Tom, lighten up, I think the question was, what is the best new course you've played this year? Not, what is the best new course in the country?

[Harbinger]

TD,

    Eyes peeled for a runaway truck!

[THuckaby2]

The question is indeed what's the best new course one has played this year... but people are most definitely taking this toward much greater meaning, ie what is the best new course PERIOD of 2001-02 (whatever time frame happens to be meaningful).

Thus TD's comment is valid....

I'd LOVE to just stick to the main question... then maybe I won't get so lambasted!  Live and learn.  

TH

[Mike Benham]

For those that have played San Francisco Golf Club, there is a state historical site just off the back edge of the property that was the location of the last duel in California (Broderick-Terry for those of you scoring at home) ...

I recommend that both men, Tom and Tommy, grab a 4-iron, step off 10-paces, turn and swing ...  

[THuckaby2]

Tommy is well aware of that site, having professed his admiration of the DUEL HOLE at SFGC many times in dg's such as this over the years....

And let's hope it doesn't come to that, Mike.  I'd hate to rid the golf world of its Emperor.  I typically am the modest type but I'd like to think I could get to Tommy before he gets to me!

Thanks for the lightening, in any case.  This thread definitely needed it.  

TH

[Joel_Stewart]

I was hoping that this thread would not take on a heated debate about any one golf course.  I wanted to get away from the NGLA-GCGC thread which seemed to get nasty and divide rather than bring people into honest discussion.  Furthermore it allows everyone to participate.  What I have learned is that Rustic Canyon may be an odds on favorite for best affordable course but you never know.

Tom Doak: I'll disagree with you that people play new courses by their favorite architects.  At GD, we are assigned a certain amount of courses in our regions and it doesn't matter who the architect is.  This year I had 6 new courses to evaluate, two happened to be by Nicklaus.  Furthermore I didn't travel to play "an architects" golf course, just courses that for some reason I had an interest to play.  I will agree that its a streach to say any of these will win.  Last year was a fluke that Pacific Dunes was so superior to any other course.  This year the balloting is far closer.  Next year it looks like Friars Head will be a strong favorite to win.

I'm still surprised no one has mentioned two high profile Fazio courses, Sage Valley in South Carolina and in Southern California, Shady Canyon.

[Tom Doak]

Joel:  I didn't say that YOU (or any Golf Digest panelists) only played a favorite architect's courses.  I know the GOLF DIGEST system:  one of the reasons you're assigned courses is because I complained ten years ago that Stonewall was ineligible for the Best New because only a couple of DIGEST raters went to see it.  Thankfully, that's changed, so most architects get a chance anyway.

All I said was that it seemed that many of the respondents to your question seemed to think they knew what course should win Best New when, on further review, they had hardly seen ANY of the candidates.

I haven't seen many new courses myself this year, and I have none that opened, so I thought I'd be above controversy on this subject.  I am quite curious to see how the voting turns out, with no rooting interest of my own.  I still think the Best New is a very inexact science, because few of the raters have seen more than one or two of the top five, so you're counting the apples of your eye against the oranges of Tom H.  I really wish it didn't have the effect on our business that it has ... and I've found out in the past year that it has A LOT.

[Dr Kildare]

Brookwater Golf Club (Norman design)
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia.

[A_Clay_Man]

I know nothing of how ratings are tabulated but it does seem rather obvious that a seperate panel of people who have all seen all the new courses is the only way to come up with an accurate result.

Is "best new" a seperate panel or an arbitrary decision by the editor or just the highest rated among the newest?

[Walt_Dorman]

Joel Stewart-Sage Valley was mentioned on page 1-Other high profile Fazio in NC is Eagle Point in Wilmington. How does Sage Valley fit in with the other great courses in the Aiken/Augusta area?

[Matt_Ward]

A few I've played that, I believe, will garner some attention when "best new" for '03 is tabulated include the following:

*Twisted Dune (NJ) -- unique and special creation by Archie Struthers that gives you a "links" type look (hate to use that term too freely) and never bores you. The layout has an expansive quality to it and although man's hand clearly dictated the final result you don't sense the "forced" nature you often see when outside forces are used to "twist" things around and inevitably screw them up.

*The Bridge (NY) -- I liked the course in a big way although a number of people, who I respect and who rate for a variety of publications, had mixed feelings on the course. Superb land and clearly a good mix of holes that test all levels of players. Although some won't admit it -- since the architect is Rees Jones there are a few people who may not give the course the respect it's due. The Bridge may not be "classical" in the minds of some given the nature of other first rate layouts in the neighborhood, but it will give you a test you won't forget.

*The Kingsley Club (MI) -- Mike DeVries did a superb job and the course shold have won the GD Best New Private last year. For some strange reason GD has carried the course forward in '03 and the move is indeed puzzling. Arguably, the front nine is no less in quality than any other recent top shelf private club you can name in the last 10 years and that includes Sand Hills -- in my opinion. The back is good albeit at a quality level just below that of the front. One last item -- some of the finest putting green complexes I've seen and the short par-3 9th will grab your b*lls and not let go.

The GC at Bear Dance (CO) -- Designed by a quartet of Colorado PGA Section professionals this layout has the awesome combination of spectacular scenery and dynamic risk and reward play for those who dare to play it. Bear Dance also has some ultra demanding greens and that may give some people pause to rate it so highly. I liked the course because you can play the course cautiously or you can attack and seek to extract as much as your game can get for you. Course tops our over 7,600 yards and although the elevation gives you added yardage you still have to position shots throughout the round. Also, compliments to the team in designing holes that go uphill without forced slogs. Unlike nearby Sanctuary, which in my mind is overly severe in its terrain, Bear Dance transitions itself well and doesn't devalue shotmaking. The uphill par-4 9th at just over 500 yards is also well done and a hole that's much more than total length.

Las Vegas Paiute Resort / The Wolf Course -- Chalk up another success for Pete Dye along with co-design members Perry Dye and Cynthia Dye McGarey. Course is the third for the complex and by far the best of the trio. The site is ALWAYS WINDY and you had better have the wherewithal to play a wide range of shots. Some of the hole are a bit much in the Dye-abolical manner presented, but if you favor / disfavor the Dye approach your predisposition won't be more / less after you've played the course. I didn't like the island par-3 on the back nine, but the rest of the course is a solid test.  

One last course to give honorable mention to -- Devil's Thumb in Delta, CO. Designed by Rick Phelps and may be one of the best affordable types for the low rates it costs to play. Strategically created with the split fairway 13th a real honey of a hole. Too bad there are conditioning issues and the management of the facility may not even realize what a wonerful course they clearly have. Remote location (40 miles south of Grand Junction) may also hamper recognition.

I've got a few more worth mentioning but just wanted to see how others think of the ones listed above.

[Dan Grossman]

Matt -

Question about Twisted Dune:

Does it traditionally play firm and fast?  I played it after the Jersey shore had gotten several inches of rain and the course didn't drain very well.  Since it seemed to be built on clay (definetely wasn't sand), I was curious if it tends to be wet all the time.  If it does usually play hard and fast, I think I need to play again before I can render an opinion.

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