[ChipOat]

East Hampton is pretty new - this is it's 2nd full season.  I was seriously impressed.

Can't wait to see Friar's Head, though.  Sounds like the real deal in spades.

[THuckaby2]

Golf Digest has this course on the best new nominations list that's going to come out in a few months... it was one of the ones we were to play... so although I played it in October 2001, I'll still nominate Applebrook GC (outside Philadelphia).  To paraphrase a great missing Armenian, Hanse brought the goods there.

And Craig E., you must play a LOT of new courses if Lost Canyons - Shadow is the worst you've played!  Come on, it isn't that bad at all... oh yes, on a $$$ basis compared to Rustic, it loses big time.  But it's a pretty damn good golf course one way or the other...

Look at it this way:  if you were to recommend a golf course in that area to someone being comped, an "average golfer" outside of the purists who frequent this dg, would you send them to Lost Canyons or to Rustic?  Where would you take a non-architecture buff client?

Tommy N. may tear me a new one when and if he reads this, but sorry, as great as Rustic Canyon is for the purist, Lost Canyons still has more to offer in the "impressing the vast majority of golfers who love service and eye-candy" area.  That can't be denied.  It really amuses me how Rustic Canyon is universally beloved here, but every golf friend I know in SoCal seems to rave about Lost Canyons and say "great for the money" about our beloved Rustic!

Again, I don't mean to denigrate Rustic at all - it is one fantastic golf course.  And maybe as time goes on the masses will see this... getting a ranking should help!  And given all the raving of golf course raters here, that sure seems like a given for each major magazine.  There is hope the masses can be converted... but for now, it's still all Lost Canyons....

TH

[MBL]

Although I've not played a new course this year (likely playing a new PB Dye course, Old Hickory, this weekend -- will report back, but I've already got a pretty good feel re my report/reaction ), I think Tom H hits the nail on the head with 'what do the GCAers like' and 'everybody else'.  Kind of amazes me when I'm out with friends, others, etc. that rave about the "difficulty" or reference the "beauty" of courses (dare I mention TF???) that are just plain boring or at the VERY least lack strategic choices.  Then again they think of me as a 'snob' so it all works out...

[T_McManus]

Laurel Links (a Kelly Blake Moran design located approx 10 miles from Friars Head), Trump National, and Great Rock (also within miles of Friar Head) are three new ones I have played in last 6 weeks.  For originality and strategy, Laurel Links is the best of these three.  I confess my bias as a Laurel Links member, but I am very confident that anyone that is able to try it will be very impressed - especially with the green complexes.  Congratulations and thanks to Kelly Moran for an outstanding achievement.

[JWalker]

TH

        As I am a new guy trying to get a better understanding of golf course architecture I really enjoy this site and especially your approach to the subject. Your style sets a great tone. I will agree that Lost Canyons is a far from terrible experience. Understanding the quote at the bottom of your posts please make an exception. From a purists point of view, or better yet a sportman's pov, which course do you prefer. Realizing possible ramifications, don't feel obliged to answer.

[THuckaby2]

JWalker:

Tommy N, he who shall tear me a new one re this, already knows this, but I shall confess to you as well:  I have not yet played Rustic Canyon.  I have quickly toured it on a cart, so I have seen it, but I have not played it.  Hopefully nothing I said above made confuses this issue... But I cannot with any conviction make a fair assessment of Rustic Canyon, obviously, until I do play the course.  Hopefully that will occur soon.

What I said in my post above was based upon what I saw of Rustic, my play of Lost Canyons-Shadow and the many things I have heard from my many SoCal golf friends...

I apologize profusely if I have confused things here.  I truly did not mean to compare the quality of these two courses, only to state what I felt about Lost Canyons (it's fun and many love the service and eye candy there) as opposed to what I saw and have heard about Rustic Canyon (little or no service, wonderful for purists, not much of the eye candy so many golfers love - intentionally so).

One thing's for sure:  from a purist point of view, Rustic has it all over either course at Lost Canyons.  I saw enough of Rustic to know that most definitely!  Go read Ran's writeup in the "courses by country" section of this site... that will tell you all you need to know!

TH

[somalley]

The Mirabel Club in Scottsdale was a wonderful play and a VAST improvement over Norman's planned Stonehaven.  The new Jay Morrish Talking Rock in Prescott, AZ is a good one.  Won't be on Digest list until next year, but is a wonderfully walkable(refreshing in these parts) course at 5,000 feet that sits in this old valley ranch property.  Spectacular bunkering with modestly undulating green surfaces. The wind blows and blows up there so bring the knockdown with you.

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Thanks to all those with the nice things to say about Rustic Canyon. I can't speak for Gil or Jim, but to be mentioned in the same breath as Hidden Creek and Friar's Head is pretty cool.

Tom, I think you are doing a great job of reinforcing the stereotype that Golf Digest panelists are all about themselves, and thus the me-related accessories (how was the food, were they nice to me, is this where you take a client, do they sell cigars, how do the beverage cart girls look, did they comp me?) and not about the architecture.

Thankfully, I have met or gotten to talk to enough Digest panelists in the last year to no longer subscribe to this belief about the panel as a whole, but I know many others will continue to believe this stereotype if they read your statements (this is what, the third time you've pointed this out?).

If you were rating a restaurant, I might by it, but last time I looked, Golf Digest rates golf course designs. Also, since you haven't played the course, I'll ask you this, do you think "affordable" public courses should be developed with corporate client entertainment in mind?
Geoff

[THuckaby2]

Geoff:

I nearly hit the delete button before I made my post, for just this reason.

Please understand I am NOT "rating" Rustic Canyon, nor am I in any way stating my own feelings regarding what is indeed a wonderful golf course.  It is disappointing to me that first Tommy and now you have taken my words this way.  Go back above and read again, and hopefully this will be clearer.

My sole and only point is that to me, it's silly to say Lost Canyons is the worst ANYTHING, and the comparison was made by Craig to Rustic Canyon - a natural thing to do given their geographic proximity.

Thus my post.  Lost Canyons is well-liked by a lot of people.  To say how "bad" it is... well... lots of people like it, and yes, prefer it to Rustic, for many reasons.

I am NOT saying these are GOOD reasons, just that this is the reality of public golf.

You will hopefully be happy to know that I have OBVIOUSLY not turned in a rating to Golf Digest, Geoff.  I OBVIOUSLY cannot do that until I play the course.  Hopefully I will get to do so soon.  And when I turn in my rating, it will be in response to the criteria we are required to evaluate, some of which go beyond "in the ground" architecture, as you well know.

Hey, this is your baby - I understand the feelings here, no hassles.

Just please don't denigrate Golf Digest raters because of  your perception of my words.  They are NOT meant to be any assessment of either Lost Canyons or Rustic Canyon - I simply meant to comment, as I did before, on public course golf, way more than I did these two courses.

Geoff, affordable public courses should obviously not be developed with the corporate client in mind.  You and Gil and everyone there have created one fantastic "affordable" course, by all takes.  I never meant to suggest otherwise.

The key is though, the word "affordable" is always inserted in assessments of Rustic.  Not by me, hey - I haven't assessed it yet and it won't matter one iota when I do.  But the fact remains that the "corporate client" does exist... and those people do prefer Lost Canyons... as do many others who see both courses, for all the "wrong" reasons, that you list.

I'm not saying any of this is "right".... just that it is reality, whether we like it or not.

Take care, my friend.  Keep up the good work.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Geoff- I didn't know GD rated on design. And without a 15 mil. clubhouse do you actually expect them to rate you highly? or even show up.

OK Ok a little unfair, but isn't it sad that it's only a little?  

[THuckaby2]

Ever wished you never made a particular post?

I'd go back and delete all of mine, but then that wouldn't be fair to Geoff, whose post would look mighty weird absent mine.

Lesson learned:  commenting re golf courses is indeed like assessing the beauty of a man's wife.  

My apologies to the many Golf Digest raters who read this dg.  I sure as hell didn't mean to bring this on.

TH

[Craig Van Egmond]

TomH,

    First a confession, while it is true that I have played 51 different golf courses so far this year, Rustic Canyon and Lost Canyon are the only 2 new courses I have played this year, so naturally Lost Canyon is the worst.

    However, I feel that Lost Canyons - Shadow is an example of all the bad things about the CCFAD fad, mind you I don't hate the course like Mr. Daley, I just don't like it.

   Playability - Rustic Canyon is enjoyable by all handicap levels. Lost Canyons - Shadows is brutal to everyone except low handicappers. If you miss most fairways at Lost Canyons your ball is lost.  I don't mind tough courses, but I lost 7 balls on the first 9 holes and Dick lost more. Advantage Rustic.

   Walkability - Rustic Canyon is very walkable and actually encourages it. Lost Canyons is unwalkable, unless you are a mountain goat. Advantage Rustic.

    CCFAD bulls**t - Lost Canyons has people to wash your clubs, carry your bags, cart girls, a fabulous club house, etc.  Rustic has a fun course and low prices.  Advantage Rustic

    Bottom line: The day Dick and I were at Lost Canyons the price was  $65.00 and the course was empty. Rustic is $40 and packed.  



    

    

[THuckaby2]

Very well Craig - thank you very much for that assessment, all of which I AGREE WITH PERSONALLY FROM WHAT I CAN TELL.

Hopefully Geoff S. will read that.  

Just please do believe me that there have indeed been many positive words said about each Lost Canyons course.  OK, sure, LC-Shadown is the lesser of the two new courses you played (technically can't be the worst - you need three for that - major grammarian here  ).  

Damn I am coming off 100% opposite of how I really feel about golf courses in general... the day I favor a horribly overpriced CCFAD like Lost Canyons over a wonderful walkable course like Rustic is the day I end it all, I've sold out.  Not gonna happen.

My sole and only point remains that many people in the golf world do favor things such as service, eye candy, etc. and though it sucks, it is reality... and shows there is a different golf world out there than the admittedly "purist" viewpoint favored in this dg.

Oh well... live and learn.

TH

[Andy Lipschultz]

I think a lot of what Lost Canyons is, represents what's wrong with golf. But the ability to walk a course is important to me--very important; I can't do it there. To some the beer cart girl frequenting them is very important. Whatever.

But in regard to a previous reply where "$ do not matter one iota..." To a lot of people it does. As far as I'm concerened the best course in Southern California is La Purisima because the combination of $50 green, the course itself and its ambiance is everything to me. Some people will hate the lack of amenities and think it insane to ever golf there more than once. Of course, they would be wrong.

And all of this is  why your DG is so great.

[THuckaby2]

Well said, Andy.  You are indeed right on - we all have different things we value in a golf course.

It just bums me out that so many people value the CCFAD amenities such as displayed at Lost Canyons.  I'm just like you - I value walking and price most definitely - though I can't include price in a Golf Digest rating - it's not one of the criteria.

But to deny such is valued by many, many people... well... that ain't the real world.  Many people do love Lost Canyons... sadly in my experience, outside this dg anyway, more than love Rustic Canyon (absent the price factor).  I think this is horrible and depressing and maybe I do just talk to the wrong people... but it is what it is.

And dammit that is all I ever meant to say.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Andy- Are you the A.L. from the CME? S&P's?

Tom- When you are rating, do you think like the "golf world" or do you evaluate based on what you think? Just wondering.

[Craig_Rokke]

Best new course I've seen in last year: Applebrook

Best new courses I've played: Twisted Dune, Glen Mills, Frog
                                         Hollow.

[Andy Lipschultz]

Andy- Are you the A.L. from the CME? S&P's?

Uh, sorry, I'm acronymally challenged. What is it?

[Bill_McBride]

Rustic Canyon is the only 2002 new course I played this year, and I just loved it.  I sent Geoff a long email detailing the reasons and a hole by hole rave.  But the main reason I liked it so much is the affordability.  A course budgeted to make money at $40 weekends is a wonderful thing in the golf world today.  The rate quoted for LaPurisma pretty well sums it up - $50 today?  I took a foursome there three or four years ago and it was $75 or $80.  Those rates were high and nobody made the trek out to Lompoc to play the course.  I think Rustic will stay packed at the rates they are charging, and the volume will make it work.

[Patrick_Mucci]

T_McManus,

I was supposed to play Laurel Links when I was out east, but never had the time.  Hopefully, I'll be able to see it before the snow flies.  I've heard nice things from others.

Please say hello to Steve H for me, and tell him I haven't forgotten him, it's just that my schedule has been overbooked, or mismanaged.

[A_Clay_Man]

Andy- If you had to ask, I have my answer. FYi, thats the Chicago Mercantile exchange and the standard and poors stock index. I know an A.L from there who is a great golfer and makes the trek to Monterey several times a year.

Tom- My attempt at humor was a low blow and I apologize, Sorry.

[Lou_Duran]

By a wide margin- Dallas National GC, though it just opened over Labor Day weekend and probably won't be rated until 2003.  From the second set of tees, at 6,800 yards, it is highly playable, with a great variety of holes.  It was built on exceptional topography, and has very challenging greens and surrounds.  It is walkable, though not easily, and a good caddy program has been instituted.  While it is probably premature to opine, from what I saw during my only round on the course, it will set the standard for this part of the country.

It seems to me that unless we are evaluating architects or who gives us the best bang for the dollar, we should stay focused on the course and not who did it, the budget, the green fee, or whether the architect has often repeated the theme at other courses.  Each course should stand on its own.   Finding a course like Wild Horse which is not only a great test, but also a lot of fun and cheap is a real plus.    

[Andy Lipschultz]

The rate quoted for LaPurisma pretty well sums it up - $50 today?  I took a foursome there three or four years ago and it was $75 or $80.  

It's $50 Mon.-Thurs. $35 if you're a men's club member; but that's walking prices. $60 on the weekend. PGA  had the Q school final there a couple years back. LPGA tried it once back in the late '80s but it was too tough for them to make birdies, so they bailed.

[Bill_McBride]

Rustic Canyon is the only 2002 new course I played this year, and I just loved it.  I sent Geoff a long email detailing the reasons and a hole by hole rave.  But the main reason I liked it so much is the affordability.  A course budgeted to make money at $40 weekends is a wonderful thing in the golf world today.  The rate quoted for LaPurisma pretty well sums it up - $50 today?  I took a foursome there three or four years ago and it was $75 or $80.  Those rates were high and nobody made the trek out to Lompoc to play the course.  I think Rustic will stay packed at the rates they are charging, and the volume will make it work.

[David Kelly]

Rustic Canyon and to hell with the masses.

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