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michael j fay

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2006, 03:46:13 PM »
Ted:

As you probably know, I saw Jason and your president at Frenh Lick. Having been to Broadmoor CC and listening to Bruce a couple of years ago and now hearing of the tree clearing and bunker work I can't wait to get back to Indianapolis.

The Broadmoor is among the most original of the Ross courses mainly because the greens are all original.

Oyster Harbors on the Cape has 18 original Ross greens and very possibly the best set I have seen. The Broadmoor greens are exceptional as are the greens at many a Ross course. I have always felt that the most important element of a Ross courses is the greens. If they are intact the course can be put back around them.

Bruce told us a couple of years ago, "get the trees right, get the mowing right and you'll get the golf right." Sounds like he has succeeded again.

Noel Freeman

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2006, 03:53:32 PM »
MJ Fay- I was fortunate enough to visit Oysters Harbors earlier this year.  I was quite surprised to see how such a sandy site (at least in the old pictures) became parkland-esque.  I thought the greens were quite good but can you honestly say they are superior to the set at Plainfield??  I obviously know the tunnel holes there are not pure Ross but there are many greens at Plainfield that top any other Ross course I've seen (1,2,4,6,7,10,11,12,16,17). The 12th green may be the best DR in my experience.  That said, I've not seen as many DR as many people here, I just remember walking away from Oyster Harbors with the thought of pleasant place for a game, some nice features but lacking some of the teeth I've seen the Donald do.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2006, 04:22:11 PM »
Mike F:

I know Holston Hills is no longer pure because we rebuilt all the greens to USGA specs and changed one (the 14th) which was too severe.  I felt bad about making a change to the 14th until we dug it up and discovered that it had already been built up several inches on the left front by someone previous to us!

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2006, 07:59:47 PM »
IMHO, Ron Prichard did a very excellent job at restoring The Beverly Country Club to what Donald Ross had intended, if he were to come back today, knowing he was faced with the limitations of the amount of land he had available.

Nice job, Ron.

 :) :) :)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

mtp

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2006, 08:43:22 PM »
Metacomet?

michael j fay

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2006, 09:12:57 PM »
Cornish dug up a number of the greens at Metacomet. Prichard fixed a couple but some still remain.

Plainfield and Oyster Harbors both have excellent greens. I think that the work that Hanse has done at Plainfield with the bunkers and the trees emphasize the greens much better than the shaded OH set.

The peaks and valleys at OH are awfully good. They are much more subtle than Plainfield. Plainfield's greens more favor those at Brae Burn while the OH greens are much more like those at Salem.

For a wild ride on Ross greens go to Brae Burn, French Lick or Grosse Isle. Wannamoisett could fall into that category as well.

All things considered I have yet to play a Ross course where I would prefer a ten foot downhill putt over a 30 foot uphill putt.

michael j fay

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2006, 09:14:10 PM »
Tom:

Did you take the tree out of the bunker on 14?

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2006, 09:38:57 PM »
I'll have to check, but Worcester is fairly close to these criteria as far as I know other than some tee work. Pritchard is working there now, but is not leaving the strong mark (yet?) that is on Aronimink, Beverly and Skokie and worst on Mountain Ridge.

Plainfield, if you forget the alteration to include the tunnel holes (and that's a big "if") has been nicely re-done. :D ;)

Aronimink had undone much of RTJ's crap work, but it does scream out Pritchard, but not as bad as Mountain Ridge or Skokie..  

Tough criteria ...


Bill,

   Since you wouldn't answer my IM about the LAST time you played Mountain Ridge and you obviously infer both that you've seen it since Ron Prichard's work and are an expert on all things Ross and those that restore Ross, please tell us specifically what is sooo bad about MRCC!!!

   My guess is that you've not even stepped foot in West Caldwell, NJ over the past 2-3yrs and have little or no idea of what you are so dismissive of. I'd like to hear what specific aspects of Ron Prichard's work you so object to.

 Have you seen any of it since their new super, Cliff Moore, arrived???? More than nearly ANY other NJ course, MRCC has been playing F & F for weeks and months on end.

   Until I, and others on this board, hear exactly what the "botched job" was at MRCC, and when the last time you were there was, you are just full of hot air and exaggerated opinions.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 09:19:41 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2006, 09:45:14 PM »
Gents


For the record, his name is Ron Prichard.


"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2006, 10:53:22 PM »
Ted,

The moment you insert the word "pure", you present the question in a context such that it can't be answered.

Primarily because it's probably impossible to determine what ROSS actually designed and left on site when he walked away from the project.

Absent knowing what existed on the day that Ross completed his work, you can't state what's "pure" Ross versus what's adulterated Ross.

Ross's crews, green superintendents, green committees, boards, Presidents, pros and mother nature could have altered his work and few if any would know about it.

But, to address your question, I think you have to divide and conquer.

The first and most significant element of the question is:
The routing.

Next is the green complexes, followed by a variety of features including bunkering, creeks, mounds, etc., etc..

Lastly, and I wouldn't include this as a category is the tees.
I think the principle of elasticity, a principle that the architect incorporated into the original design, automatically negates the theory of "pure"

While I tend to gravitate toward "pure", I've come to accept "sympathetic", where "pure" can't be achieved, for a variety of reasons.

What's interesting, in the context of your question, is how existing golf courses, where the architects are still alive and well, aren't "pure"

I'd say that very few golf courses that have the luxury of having the original architect available for consultation, are the same as they were on opening day, or from what the original architect intended.

One must never forget, although, TEPaul does it every time, that the nature of memberships is to alter golf courses.

Prospective members are attacted to a golf course, and join it, and the first thing they want to do is to change it.
Why did they join in the first place ?  Didn't they like the golf course just the way it was ?

The critical responsibility of any member, green committee or board member, is to protect the architectural integrity of the golf course, and not to alter it to satisfy their personal agenda or the latest fad.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 10:08:14 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2006, 10:54:43 PM »
Steve Lapper,

I agree with you 1000 %

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2006, 09:35:47 AM »
I'm confused by this thread. Is the real question: what are the 10 least-touched Ross courses? Whitinsville has to be in the top 10 without a doubt since nothing really has changed other than tree planting, most of which is on parts of the course that are out of play. Essex County in Mass. would qualify as well. One green was relocated due to a lawsuit but other than that not much else has happened. What about The Orchards? George Wright has been ignored and neglected for so long I think little has been done to change the holes.

"Pure restoration" needs to be defined. When Brian Silva did his stunning restoration at Seth Raynor's Mountain Lake should he have planted a tree in the back collar of the first green that appears in a photo from opening day in order to purely restore the hole? Should green heights be at a quarter of an inch and the grass be common bermuda?

Tony
 

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2006, 10:51:34 AM »
Just realized the original 9 at Rolling Rock probably also qualifies. Most of the original cross and fairway bunkers are now grass but the original footprints remain and the greens are untouched.

Tony

Ian Andrew

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2006, 04:15:44 PM »
I have had a couple of recent enquiries about Ross courses. If you read through this thread you'll see why I choose to stick with the other architects instead.

I'm not sure to this day if I understand why, but Ross work is far more contentious than any other architect. Each of the Ross experts have been heavily chastized on this forum at one time or another, that simply doesn't happen to the same extent with other architects work.

Why is this because I don't get it?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2006, 04:27:12 PM by Ian Andrew »

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2006, 04:29:19 PM »
It all stems from the raping of Brian Silva by the Donald Ross Society.

Tony


Mike_Cirba

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2006, 09:58:17 PM »
Fellows;

If you want pure, untouched Ross, there is a nine hole, 3000 yard course just south of Allentown, PA called Tumblebrook GC that was built in 1931.

Ross's original drawing hangs in the tiny clubhouse and it's clear that not a single feature has changed since inception.

However, it's also clear that this was a pure 'paper job', and that the closest DR got to the property was the US Mail system.  The course is very modest, not very good, features none of the interesting touches Ross normally added to his greens.  

But, it would make Ted's 10, without a doubt.

T_MacWood

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2006, 12:38:35 AM »
To:  Michael Fay  

Thanks for that input.  I really hope you will come back and visit.  It looks much different that the last time you were there.

To:  Tom Macwood

You simply must get over here to see it.  Next time Ran is in town, we'll lob in a call to you to have you join us.

TS

Ted
The last time anyone lobbed anything to me it was bromide from Matt Ward. I'd love to see the new and improved Broadmoor.

TEPaul

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2006, 06:25:24 AM »
I'm still trying to figure out if this thread is about 10 Ross courses that basically haven't been touched or about 10 Ross courses that've had "pure" Ross restorations, or both. There certainly is a difference.

First of all, I'd challenge anyone to identify any Ross course that's had a completely "pure" Ross restoration. I don't think I've ever heard of any course that's had a pure restoration back to the way the original architect built it. That subject is never more than various shades of grey.  ;)

Secondly, would any club really want a totally "pure" restoration? That would probably include removing some tees length additions and such. Would that be productive today and if so why?

Paul Payne

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2006, 04:09:39 PM »
Mike,

You bring up an excellent point in that the one course so far that sounds the most untouched may be the least likely for you to go out of your way to visit.

My question is; doesn't any high quality course by any architect eventually require a renovation of some kind? I have followed many of the debates on this site as to the quality and potential disruption of renovations to old courses, but it seems only inevitable that it will happen.

I think in order to fairly judge the answer to the original question you have to establish the criteria, which I think gets to the heart of every debate of this type that I have read. What is meant by keeping a course "pure" to the architects intent. This would possibly even have to factor in what his intent may have been given updtated technology.

 ???



Paul Payne

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2006, 04:17:15 PM »
Yikes!!!!!

Cardinal sin!

I think for technical purposes I used the term renovation where I should have used restoration.

My apologies.

Jeff Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2006, 06:18:04 PM »
How about White Bear Yacht Club in White Bear Lake, MN.  Nothing changed on those greens.  The only work that I know of that has been done has been to the bunkers, in house work.

Jeff Johnson
Jeff Johnson

Glenn Spencer

Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2006, 03:10:27 PM »
Mike F:

I know Holston Hills is no longer pure because we rebuilt all the greens to USGA specs and changed one (the 14th) which was too severe.  I felt bad about making a change to the 14th until we dug it up and discovered that it had already been built up several inches on the left front by someone previous to us!


The 14th was too severe, wow, I found it pretty severe as it was in April. Great golf hole. How severe was it before?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2006, 03:10:42 PM by Glenn Spencer »

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2006, 03:46:00 PM »
While mentioning White Bear Lake, Woodhill in MN still has a lot of Ross left.  That would be the only way to explain the diabilical short 7th.  I know Doak and some others have been there to look, but i am not sure if any meaningful restoration work has been undertaken.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re:Name 10 Ross courses that are pure Ross restorations...
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2006, 09:30:36 PM »
Bill C.:

Geoffrey Cornish worked at Woodhill years before I saw it.  I think he rebuilt a green but can't remember for sure ... we did not consult there long, because I got the feeling they wanted to make some significant changes.

White Bear Yacht Club's eighth green was rebuilt at one point, and we were called in to rebuild it because balls would not stay on it ... most approaches hit in the middle of the green and ran off the left side.  I'm sure the original green was better than either subsequent version.  The rest of the greens there are terrific, but the funny thing is, there's no strong evidence that Ross was ever there, and I've never seen a set of greens like that from Ross or his associates.

Glenn:  We left the 14th at Holston pretty severe, but we built up the surface of the green about ten feet in from the front so that some balls would stay on the front of the green.  Six years ago, anything on the first twenty feet of the green was back down the hill in front ... and the greens weren't as fast then!

Tim Copeland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Here is one.....
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2006, 09:41:06 PM »
http://www.camdencountryclub.com/

Have not seen it....but have heard good things about it
I need a nickname so I can tell all that I know.....

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