[T.J. Sturges]

What I mean by that is, how many courses are there that Ross built that never had that "middle architect" who blew up the greens or re-routed a hole or two (like Seminole, Inverness, Scioto and Oak Hill) that have been fully restored today.

Bruce Hepner is putting the finishing touches on Broadmoor in Indianapolis to be just that.  The only mistakes the membership at Broadmoor has made was in planting too many trees.  Bruce is correcting 3 decades worth of (easily fixable) mistakes.  We are about to be a "pure Ross" course once again.  

My question to this panel is:  how many of these are there?

If there are less than 10 (which is what I fear) does that by definition, put Broadmoor in the first 50 classic courses in the US?

TS

[Tom_Doak]

Ted:  An interesting question.

There are a lot of clubs which insist they have restored all their greens and bunkers, but few of them were really unaltered over the years, and the restoration of the greens can never be too exact since Ross didn't leave detailed topo for his greens.

Broadmoor has never rebuilt any of its greens since Mr. Ross left.  How many others are there?

[John Kavanaugh]

Who was the middle architect at French Lick if there was one..

[T.J. Sturges]

I can't tell you who did it, but French Lick re-routed a few holes.  The 14th green is not original, having been built in the sixties I am told.

TS

[TEPaul]

Believe it or not Aronimink is pretty close. The routing is the exact same, the greens are almost all the same (really good), and the bunkering has been restored to Ross's original drawings that aren't the same as built but they are in most all the same places. I think it's fascinating that the club redid Ross's original bunker drawings since that scum J.B McGovern (who was Aronimink's green chairman) took liberties with Ross's bunker drawings.  

[Mike_Young]

IMHO..if a bulldozer touched it...it is not a pure Ross restoration....

[T.J. Sturges]

Tepaul,

Jones and Ron Pritchart have their finger-prints all over Aroniminck.  This one will not make our list.

TS

[Lawrence Largent]

If I'm not mistaken and I beleive I'm not Holston Hills is the same exact routing and has been restored to the exact specs. There is a nine hole private Ross called Tryon CC in Tryon, NC.  I've been meaning to visit but haven't had time but from what I'm told its totally untouched like a step back in time.


Lawrence

[TEPaul]

"Tepaul,
Jones and Ron Pritchart have their finger-prints all over Aroniminck.  This one will not make our list."

Ted:

In that case if you're talkng restoration there isn't a course out there that's pure Ross or a pure Ross restoration.

[Mike_Young]

"Tepaul,
Jones and Ron Pritchart have their finger-prints all over Aroniminck.  This one will not make our list."

Ted:

In that case if you're talkng restoration there isn't a course out there that's pure Ross or a pure Ross restoration.

bingo

[John Foley]

This got me thinking about all the Ross courses here in Upstate NY. Did a little looking around and am amazed by the number of people whove touched places such as:

Teugega in Rome renovation work by William Mitchell
Bellvue in Syracuse renovation work by William Wilerson & Frank Duane
CC of Rochester renovation work by RTJ, Art Hills & Gil Hanse recently
Monroe in Rochester renovation work by Cornish, William Robinson, Hills, Silva & Hnase (JEEZ!!!)
Brook Lea in Rochester renovation by Willaim Harries & Bob Cupp.
Oak Hill East renovation work by RTJ, George & Tom Fazio & Brian Schriener.

The only one I found that may be close to the original work is Oak Hill West.

[T.J. Sturges]

Tepaul,

Please re-read my original post.  There are a few (I believe less than 10), but Aronimink is not among them.  

The greens at Broadmoor (as T. Doak confirms) have not been touched.  Broadmoor is on a very short list, I'd just like to determine exactly how short the list is.

TS

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Tepaul,

Jones and Ron Pritchart have their finger-prints all over Aroniminck.  This one will not make our list.

TS

Where are Jones fingerprints, since the restoration?

[JNagle]

Springfield C.C., Springfield, Ohio  Only changes that have happened there are the removal of some bunkers and planting of trees.  Plans in place, restoration has not begun.

C.C. of York - all original greens with some bunker (few additions) removal and lots of new trees.  Plans in place.

LuLu C.C. - all original greens, bunkers restored and few added, lots of trees removed.

I understand Oak Hill West is pure.  Work was started last year with Fazio.

[BCrosby]

I understand that Holston Hills has undergone very few changes. John Stiles will know the answer.

Roaring Gap?

Highlands CC?

Timiquana?

I'm not sure what you mean by major changes, but I don't think the foregoing courses have changed much other than ordinary wear and tear, tree planting campaigns and the removal of some bunkers over the years.

[TEPaul]

"Where are Jones fingerprints, since the restoration?"

WayneW:

RTJ's fingerprints at Aronimink are basically all gone except for the lake or pond to the left of #17, the way that has been treated on that hole and the way its drainage transitions across to around #10 green.

[Mike Hendren]

The routing at Memphis CC, one of Ross' earlier courses remains intact.  The 17th green is relatively new and the back of the 3rd green has been lowered to accomodate current green speeds.  Maybe some changes at the 9th and 18th greens which were once extremely close for those parallel holes.  

Otherwise, the only changes I'm aware of are the loss and re-shaping of a few bunkers and general rounding of the putting surfaces.  The original green pads remain in place and old photographs show surprisingly angular green shapes.

Mike

[Dave_Miller]

What I mean by that is, how many courses are there that Ross built that never had that "middle architect" who blew up the greens or re-routed a hole or two (like Seminole, Inverness, Scioto and Oak Hill) that have been fully restored today.

Bruce Hepner is putting the finishing touches on Broadmoor in Indianapolis to be just that.  The only mistakes the membership at Broadmoor has made was in planting too many trees.  Bruce is correcting 3 decades worth of (easily fixable) mistakes.  We are about to be a "pure Ross" course once again.  

My question to this panel is:  how many of these are there?

If there are less than 10 (which is what I fear) does that by definition, put Broadmoor in the first 50 classic courses in the US?

TS

Charles River CC.  Greens never touched, routing never changed, bunkers restored, no intermediate architect.  Only change was to make a cliff a runway by a green chairman.
Best
Dave

[T_MacWood]

Ted
I'm not sure there are 10 pure restorations period, much less ten pure Ross restorations. I'm anxious to check out Broadmoor...perhaps it will turn the tide on the Rossification trend.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I'll have to check, but Worcester is fairly close to these criteria as far as I know other than some tee work. Pritchard is working there now, but is not leaving the strong mark (yet?) that is on Aronimink, Beverly and Skokie and worst on Mountain Ridge.

Plainfield, if you forget the alteration to include the tunnel holes (and that's a big "if") has been nicely re-done.

Aronimink had undone much of RTJ's crap work, but it does scream out Pritchard, but not as bad as Mountain Ridge or Skokie..  

Tough criteria ...

So, what screams of Pritchard that isn't either pure Ross or an interpretation of Ross's work (i.e. the bunkering)?

TEPaul -

Even though I've been walking/playing at Aronimink for nearly 30 years, I can't seem to remember how far the pond on 17 used to wrap around the left side of the green before RTJ.  I'm sure we have aerials to show that... I'm just 3,000 miles away from them.  How did the left side of the green, and entire green complex look and play before those changes?  And, why don't you think we/Pritchard didn't advocate reverting back to that design?

[Dave_Miller]

"Where are Jones fingerprints, since the restoration?"

WayneW:

RTJ's fingerprints at Aronimink are basically all gone except for the lake or pond to the left of #17, the way that has been treated on that hole and the way its drainage transitions across to around #10 green.

Tommy:
The pond was not done by RTJ but was done by a green chairman who wanted to make the hole harder.

Wayne:
The pond only went in front of the green.  There was a landing area on the left side and there was also a bunker in the face of the green on the left side.

Best
Dave

[james soper]

linville golf club may fit the bill.

[Brad Tufts]

Is Rip Van Winkle Ross?  I saw this 9 holer online someplace, and it said Ross on the description, although it's not on the DRS list...

[michael j fay]

Holston is pretty close. Salem is really close. Wannamoisett is extremely close. I have yet to visit any Ross course that has not had some renovation.

French Lick built a pond in 1969 and slightly altered the routing. Plainfield, as good as it is, has three step-children holes and a great par five that was once a four and a three.
The Roosevellt Memorial in Georgia may be all original (it is close) but has eroded you would have an identity problem.

[T.J. Sturges]

To:  Michael Fay  

Thanks for that input.  I really hope you will come back and visit.  It looks much different that the last time you were there.

To:  Tom Macwood

You simply must get over here to see it.  Next time Ran is in town, we'll lob in a call to you to have you join us.

TS

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()