[Mark_Rowlinson]

Given the other thread on this book, here's a list of the current entries, on which I invite you to comment freely.  However, before you go mad, remember that the book remains the same size.  If you take out a 6-page course you have to fill the space with six pages, 1X6 or 3X2 - you can't have 5-, 3-, or 1-page entries.  If you take out an Asian course you have to replace it with an Asian course.  If you want to include Barnboogle Dunes or Cape Kidnappers it cannot be at the expense of a Canadian course.  There are fewer South American, African and Asian courses than once there were, but we cannot really lose any more without ending up imbalanced.  Remember also that readers want to relate these courses to the great things great players have done there.  Crystal Downs hasn't witnessed a Nicklaus/Palmer showdown or a Woods runaway.  It would be hard to justify 8 pages! Here goes.  Enjoy yourselves!

EUROPE
Scotland: TOC (6 pages), R Troon (4), Carnoustie (4), R Dornoch (2), Muirfield (6), Turnberry (4), Loch Lomond (2), Kingsbarns (2)
England: R Liverpool (2), R Lytham (4), Sunningdale (2), R Birkdale (4), Woodhall Spa (2), R St George's (4), Ganton (2)
Wales: R Porthcawl (2)
N Ireland: R Co Down (2), R Portrush (2)
Eire: Portmarnock (2), K Club (2), Ballybunion (2)
Netherlands: Kennemer (2)
Belgium: R Antwerp (2)
Sweden: Falsterbo (2), Halmstad (2)
Germany: Club zur Vahr (2)
France: Le Golf National (2), Chantilly (2)
Spain: El Saler (2), Valderrama (2)
Portugal: San Lorenzo (2), Portugal Vilamoura Old (2)

NORTH AMERICA
USA: Shinnecock Hills (2), Augusta National (6), Cypress Point (2), Oakmont (4), Baltusrol (4), Country Club Brookline (4), Olympic Lake (4), Harbour Town (2), Winged Foot West (4), Pinehurst #2 (4), Merion East (4), Seminole (2), TPC Sawgrass (2), Oak Hill (4), Muirfield Village (4), Inverness (4), NGLA (2), Pine Valley (4), Southern Hills (2), Medinah #3 (2), Oakland Hills (4), Pebble Beach (4), Prairie Dunes (2), Pacific Dunes (2), Sand Hills (2), Bethpage Black (2), Black Mesa (2), Crystal Downs (2), Riviera (2)
Canada: Banff Springs (2), Capilano (2), R Montreal Blue (4), St George's (2)
Bermuda: Mid Ocean (2)

ASIA
Japan: Hirono (2), Kasumigaseki (2), Fujioka (2)
India: R Calcutta (2)
China: Hong Kong GC (2)
Indonesia: Bali Handara (2)

AUSTRALASIA
Australia: R Melbourne Composite (4), R Adelaide (2)
New Zealand: Wairakei (2), Paraparaumu Beach (2)

AFRICA
S Africa: Durban CC (2), R Johannesburg (2)
Morocco: R Rabat (2)

SOUTH AMERICA
Argentina: Jockey Club Red (2)
Venezuela: Lagunita (2)

GAZETTEER ENTRIES (Ca 150 words, card of course and course map)

UK and Eire
Nairn, Gullane No 1, Gleneagles Kings, Prestwick, North Berwick
R St David’s
Little Aston, Formby, Southport and Ainsdale, Saunton East, Burnham and Berrow, R Cinque Ports, Berkshire Red, Hunstanton, Walton Heath Old, Wentworth West, R Worlington, R W Norfolk, Notts, Woburn Marquess, Alwoodley, Swinley Forest
Lahinch, Waterville, Tralee,

Europe
Hamburger Falkenstein, Frankfurter, Palmerston Resort Faldo
Seefeld-Wildmoos
Saint Nom-la-Breteche, Seignosse, Barbaroux, Royal Mougins
Royal Hague
R Belgique (Tervuren), R Zoute
Rome, Pevero, Biella
La Manga South, Club de Campo
Quinta do Lago, Penha Longha, Estoril, Penina

USA
Bay Hill, Kingsley Club, Doral Blue, Ponte Vedra Ocean, TPC Scottsdale, Peachtree, Wild Dunes Links, Dunes, CC of N Carolina, Baltimore Five Farms, Cascades, Westchester CC, Friar’s Head, Quaker Ridge, Canterbury, Scioto, NCR South, Chicago, Shoal Creek, Honors Course, Butler National, Interlachen, Hazeltine National, Cherry Hills, Oak Tree, Colonial, Castle Pines, Pasatiempo, Spyglass Hill, Poppy Hills, Mauna Kea

CANADA
Jasper Park, Hamilton, Highlands Links

CENTRAL AMRICA/CARIBBEAN
Port Royal, Vallescondido, Lucaya, Carambola Beach, South Ocean, Tryall, Cerromar Beach North, Lagos de Caujaral

AFRICA
Kenya: Karen
S Africa: Gary Player CC

MIDDLE EAST
Emirates

ASIA
Japan: Yomiuri, Kasugai, Nasu
Philippines: Wack Wack
Thailand: Navatanee
India: Delhi

AUSTRALASIA
Australia: Lake Karrinyup, New South Wales, Kingston Heath
New Zealand: Christchurch

[Jason Topp]

My impressions:

Scotland  Replace Loch Lomand with Prestwick

Eire – replace K-Club with Lahinch

Australasia – replace the New Zealand courses with Kingston Heath and New South Wales

US list looks about right, I recall Valhalla being in there at one point but it looks like it is no longer even on the Gazeteer list.

[George Pazin]

Glad to see Ganton back in the mix, I think it was dropped in favor of the Belfry for awhile, no?

Hard to do the swap thing - I'd love to see St. Enodoc, Rye, and Deal, but don't know what you could knock out. Maybe a few US courses....

Sames goes for Barnbougle - I don't know the area well enough to drop a course.

For me personally there's a big "One of these things, doesn't belong here..." (Sesame Street reference for the non US people) in the US list, but I won't point it out. It's obvious to anyone who actually remembers my posts (at least Huck, anyway ).

[Chris_Clouser]

Mark,

I would make a lot of changes in the Gazetteer section next time.  I think that is where the most fat is able to be cut and replaced with real substance.  Places like Pontre Vedra Ocean, Karen and Wack Wack.  The Europe and Central America sections are loaded with possibilities here.

I would love to see a little more inclusion of Australian and Japanese courses.  Though it might be nice to include courses from all the continents, is it really a service to have places like Hong Kong GC in there when there have been so many great places have been built in the main golf centers of the world in the last thirty years since the original book was published.  Truthfully, I would be hard pressed to include anything from South America, Africa (other than S. Africa) or Asia (other than Japan) in the main section of the book.

Perhaps including Barnbougle, St. Andrews Beach, Kauri Cliffs or Cape Kidnappers would be a good idea and eliminating Wairekei.  Perhaps cutting places like LaGuinta or Royal Rabat would be best.  

Although I would love to see Prestwick or Lahinch in the book, the best place to put these is the Gazetteer section in my mind.  The hallmark of the book should be to profile the top courses in the world, not just the ones that we at GCA think deserve merit for their history or quirkiness.  Though we might find Prestwick interesting, I guarantee that most people buying the book would rather read about Doral or some other course they know from the Ryder Cup or PGA Tour.  

[Tony_Muldoon]

Because it's relatively hard for people to get on I'd drop lovely Swinley for
- Doak says St Georges Hill
- but I would go for Woking and why it's fun (and important).

I think the book should be encouraging people to go out and play the courses not just be a trainspotters guide to unattainable dreams. ON that basis a few U.S. courses must be due the chop?

[Paul Payne]

Why is Wild Dunes Links on the Gazeteer list?

Most of the others you could have a valid debate as to their merits but this one I don't get. Enlighten me.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Commenting about the German section:

I'd drop Frankfurter (and I live there). It has important tournaments and history, but just isn't that interesting. Hanau is just as good, but much prettier. So is Schloss Braunfels and a couple of others. St. Wendel is very new, therefore it might not be justified to include it, but it is by far the most interesting to play. And if the relatively new Faldo is included...

http://www.golfclub-stwendel.de/index.php?wahl=381

Ulrich

[Scott Coan]

As regards AUSTRALASIA:

In New Zealand I would swap out Wairakei for Cape Kidnappers.

Hard to imagine the Australia entries (Royal Melb & Adelaide) not including Barnbougle, Kingston Heath, & NSW...

[Joel_Stewart]

If you take out an Asian course you have to replace it with an Asian course.  If you want to include Barnboogle Dunes or Cape Kidnappers it cannot be at the expense of a Canadian course.  There are fewer South American, African and Asian courses than once there were, but we cannot really lose any more without ending up imbalanced.  

The problem is with the first line.  Why sacrifice a really good course such as Barnboogle Dunes (Australia) at the expense of an inferior American course?

It also depends on who is buying this book.  Readers who visit this web site are more interested in world courses than seeing the same old courses which have been featured for the last 25 years.

I have to believe that with the huge increases in golf courses in the world, the book needs to be more balanced.  

Mark:  What are the demographics for the book sales?

[Mike Benham]

In the US Gazetter section, drop Poppy Hills for Torrey Pines, at least you will have all the California US Open courses ...

[Joel_Stewart]

In the US Gazetter section, drop Poppy Hills for Torrey Pines, at least you will have all the California US Open courses ...

I agree that Poppy Hills should be dropped as well as Wild Dunes.  I would add Bandon Dunes, Friars Head, Dallas National or Sebonic.

[Andrew Summerell]

I'm another that has to stand up for the lack of Kingston Heath, NSW & Barnbougle Dunes.

Don't forget, Royal Sydney (an Australian course) had 2 pages & has been removed without another Australian addition & Royal Melbourne (in my version) was actually a 5 page review, with the 6th page being the Australasian title page.

So technically, Australia has lost 3 pages.

[Matt_Sullivan]

I agree with those who want to see Kingston Heath, Barnbougle and NSW in there somewhere

The Asian course selection (other than Japan) is weak. For example I would replace Bali Handara with Nirwana Bali and Hong Kong GC with the RTJ course at Spring City, Kunming, China. Blue Canyon in Phuket, Thailand should probably be gazetted instead of Navatanee  and I would also drop Delhi for something like Saujana (Cobra Course) in Malaysia.

I haven't played there but I am not sure Royal Calcutta deserves a spot either

[Mike_Clayton]

Matt,
I played Calcutta a couple of times in the 80's and it's a good course - but it wouldn't be in the top 25 in Australia.

Kingston Heath needs to be in there as do NSW and Barnbougle.
Cape Kidnappers is by a long way the best course in New Zealand.

[Matthew Rose]

Australia - more please

England/Scotland - probably about right. I wouldn't drop anything on the current Open rota though; that's what I always loved about this book was knowing that I'd have most of the major venues at my disposal.

I think the US section is just right.

At the risk of sounding somewhat anglo-centric again I guess I'd agree with questioning the importance of the South American, African, and some of the Asian entries, but I suppose they've always been there. I wouldn't have a problem with those if it wasn't at the expense of more US and UK courses.

[Keith Durrant]

I think some of you are missing the point. This is the World Atlas, not a list of the 100 best courses on the planet.

I want to hear about the best courses around the world, especially the ones with some history. A course that opened last year does not need to jump straight into the book!!

[Kevin Pallier]

Mark

I love the book but my first question would be why can't you increase it's size ?

My second question is based around your "balance statement" - surely more than 2 courses from Australia and only one "sand-belt" course can make the main section ? esp: when there are 30 odd from the US....

As I said on the other thread (and as Andrew / Mike etc have said here) Kingston Heath + NSW + Barnbougle Dunes are standout omissions.

I would have thought Cape Kidnappers would have had to be in NZ's list from all reports

In the UK...surely Nth Berwick and Prestwick at the expense of a few longer UK reviews ?

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Mark,

The "World Atlas of Golf" is a great reference ,as I see it, of the great Championship Courses of the world – that means where the famous championships have been held.

As you correctly describe –“readers want to relate these courses to the great things great players have done there”. The courses reflect the tradition and focus of the “world” of golf.

With this in mind I find it perplexing to find the inclusion of 7 courses from the Central America and Caribbean, which are basically resort courses, when a central european country like Switzerland with a renowned long standing Championship Course is ignored.

Crans–Montana G.C. is home of the Swiss Open, a European Tour Event, for over half a century with an illustrious list of winners and an unusual alpine course at 1500m above sea level with an abundance of interesting history. It deserves a page for itself or at least a Gazetter entry as it has been in the previous “World Atlas of Golf”.

Why is it ignored this time ?

I hope you can find the time to provide an explanation.

[Willie_Dow]

Mark - Many thanks for keeping this treasure alive, and growing.  How many editions are there now, and how many more will be coming ?

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

You can never really win at this game, because no course feels like it deserves to be dropped out of the spotlight.  But, I do think you have to be really careful of taking new courses which aren't tournament sites unless they are CLEARLY one of the top 30-40 courses in the world.

Whistling Straits is not my cup of tea, but it is going to keep hosting championships for years to come, so it ought to be included.

Kingston Heath and New South Wales definitely deserve to be in, they are better than half the courses which are in the book.  Barnbougle has to rank third on the list of omitted Australian courses for now, even if it is arguably as good as the other two, it hasn't been there for long and has little history.

Nine out of 10 people have Cape Kidnappers above Wairakei on their list, and Wairakei has no real history either, so I think that's a fair trade.

Keep Swinley Forest -- it might be the only way most readers ever get to learn about it.  And you can't drop any of the Open championship venues, no matter who thinks some other links (old or new) is more deserving.

[PThomas]

Mark:

You can never really win at this game, because no course feels like it deserves to be dropped out of the spotlight.  But, I do think you have to be really careful of taking new courses which aren't tournament sites unless they are CLEARLY one of the top 30-40 courses in the world.

Whistling Straits is not my cup of tea, but it is going to keep hosting championships for years to come, so it ought to be included.

Kingston Heath and New South Wales definitely deserve to be in, they are better than half the courses which are in the book.  Barnbougle has to rank third on the list of omitted Australian courses for now, even if it is arguably as good as the other two, it hasn't been there for long and has little history.

Nine out of 10 people have Cape Kidnappers above Wairakei on their list, and Wairakei has no real history either, so I think that's a fair trade.

Keep Swinley Forest -- it might be the only way most readers ever get to learn about it.  And you can't drop any of the Open championship venues, no matter who thinks some other links (old or new) is more deserving.

Tom:  why isn't W Straits your "cup of tea"?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

It's always good to post a list of golf courses; it generates lots of feedback.  I can't give you precise demographic figures, because I don't know them, but the bulk of sales are in the bargain basement outlets.  Several new editions have been commissioned simply by a bulk sale to another imprint.  The other factor is time.  very often these things come at very short notice.  There may be a three-month turn-round.  This last time I was lucky in that a number of you were prepared to contribute articles for pathetic money, but did so because of the value you attach to the book.  Another of you did a fantastic job in clearing out a lot of mistakes from the past, at the same time getting back as closely as possible to the original text.  

There is another issue which is the minimal funding available for change.  The major artwork for the main entries is expensive and i will be told 'You can have X new entries (usually it has been 5) with one main map and one photo. 1200 words each'  I've been able to get courses such as North Berwick and Swinley Forest into the gazetteer by using a compatible map from another book in the same publishing house.  Much as I might have liked to put in Morfontaine they refused permission to include them!  

I'm not going to try to justify every decision - sometimes it was the availablility of artwork references early enough to get the drawings made.  At other times it was the availability of someone to whom I could subcontract the job of writing about a course of which I have no experience.

If I have anything to do with any future editions I feel the weeding out process is about 50% done.  I agree about better representation for Australia and New Zealand, but I didn't manage to find a writer in time.  That's why Royal Montreal is still there - the way the book was made up meant that when we got new US and Canadian entries Mointreal was meant to go.  But, although we pruned Royal Sydney with the intention of upgrading Kingston Heath or New South Wales, we also pruned, if I recall, Singapore and Royal Selangor.  I found someone who might in future write entries for Asia and Australasia but I didn't fnd him until too late for this book.  Those courses all went to make space for some classics previously ignored such as Crystal Downs.

Sure, the K-club will go, but with the Ryder Cup there any day now it had to stay for the latest edition.  I'm sure there will be pressure to put in Celtic Manor and the PGA Course at Gleneagles.  For the moment I'm very happy to have been able to smuggle Crystal Downs, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes and others in there and to get them before a readership which has never heard of them and will never get to play them.  If there's another edition I'm sure you'll all get to influence the outcome.

Obviously there are all sorts of issues that you might like to play with.  Have a look at architect perspective - is the balance right between MacKenzie and Rees Jones, Ross and Puttnam, for instance?  Or, is the balance right between courses from each decade of the 20th century?  Should there be such a balance?  Is the balance right between numbers of golf courses and golfers in each region of the world?  Have we even got a representative balance in the USA?  Have we not suddenly become top heavy with Thompson in Canada?  Is the balance right between mountain courses, desert courses, parkland, heathland, links, resorts, private clubs, public course, etc etc....  

Inevitably on GCA there is a general consensus of opinion about what makes good or great architecture.  We can, and do, argue about the detail of that.  But this book was not dogmatic when it first appeared.  It did not say that one form of architecture was superior to another.  It included courses that probably surprised GCA buffs even in 1976.  They made decisions that none of us now understands, but we respect their knowledge and judgement.  The book embraced pretty well all styles of architecture, many that would now be chased from the page by GCAers.  As long as we still have some of that diversity and a bit of controversy we're probably staying within the remit of the original protagonists.  Another factor was pointed out by Tom Doak when we discussed the book a few years ago.  He suggested that all of the courses have probably changed more in the last few years than in the first 25 years of the book's existence.  It is a complex beast to update!

Here are a couple of suggestions for you.  Would someone who has a first edition give us a list of the courses included originally, with proportional representation?  It would be interesting to learn your opinions on that original list.

The other suggestion is: would anybody feel like producing a facsimile first edition with afterword in the excellent manner in which Daniel Wexler has done the Hutchinson British Golf Links?  I don't think there is enough interest in this country, but if there were from an American publisher I'm sure Hamlyn would play ball.  

[Ash Towe]

I think that Wairakei should be replaced by Cape Kidnappers.  Wairakei is held in high esteem in New Zealand due to its cost and surrounds.
In the gazetteer section Christchurch should be replaced by Kauri Cliffs.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

I would be interested in writing an update / afterword to a recycled first edition, if we could find a publisher.  And it's quite possible we could.

[ForkaB]

Intreresting idea Mark.......

Does a galley proof or pristine copy of the original edition exist, or would it need to be recreated?

Rich

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