[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Dont have the time tonight to post any substantial post here, but suffice it to say that you guys in the NE are spoiled by the great old classic courses that you have there.  You cant turn around up there without stepping on another Ross gem or Tillie course.  Unbelievable.  

It is funny how as a frequent observer here, I am sure most of these places have been ground over in the tiniest details, but I have never paid that close of attention as it never means as much as when I see a post that actually applies to an area of the country where I get to play.  But spending a weekend in NJ with a friend of mine who is just a wealth of information on good golf architecture in that region, I was blown away with the sheer volume of interesting courses around there.  I played or had the chance to see some great stuff in a few days.  

In no particular order
Fiddlers Elbow (Forest) where I hit the finest golf shot of my life.
Essex County CC - Interesting course that I think will deserve some serious consideration when the restoration is completed.  Still a little schitzophrentic on bunker shape and look until they get it all finished.
Plainfield CC - Great stuff also undergoing some slight restoration.
Montclaire CC - Just rode around here (after 36 on Saturday I was a little tired and it was late)
Aronimink GC - Just wonderful after Ron Prichards restoration to Ross's original design plans (plus some length).  All the other tinkering should now be gone.

I say again, you guys are spoiled there.

Turboe

[TEPaul]

Turboe:

I always got the feeling I was spoiled being around the Philly region but from the little I just saw in the Massachusetts area, they might be a lot more spoilt than I am. I already knew that Brookline and Kittansett were good but that Charles River is really something else!

I would be very interested to hear what a good golfer without that much interest in golf course architecture would think of Charles River but for someone interested in architecture it truly is something else!

In a little while I'm going to go through the course and tell my feelings on each and every hole after just playing the course one time!

[John_Conley]

Daryl:

True, but only part true.  The Northeast is chock full of great courses, but lags in access.  Many of the top courses in populated areas are private.  If they exist, but someone can't get on, what good does that do?

You are correct, though.  I've always said over one-third of the best courses in America are within 2 hours of NYC.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Yes the guys in the northeast are spoiled. the great courses are it seems everywhere. The parts of america that had significant course developement prior to 1929 have a real edge over the rest of us. However we in the 12 month golf world have a lot more to chat about come late october to march.

[Ed_Baker]

John B,

What's the name of that old flick? Planes,trains, and automobiles.

Best,
Spoiled Ed.

[Guest]

It's all private, it sucks. The Northeast is the least accessible and most expensive place for public golf. You're probably better off wherever you are.

[Ed_Baker]

Actually guest, there are 234 public golf courses in Massachusetts alone, 50 of which have week day green fees less than 25 bucks.

[Chris_Clouser]

I agree.  You guys up there are spoiled.  I understand that a lot of the great courses are private, but it seems like everyone has played them on this site at least once if they live in the area.  The golf around Indy is OK with Crooked Stick and some other Pete Dye courses, but for someone who wants to learn more about Raynor, Flynn, Tillinghast or Ross the selection is limited to two Ross courses in the state.  Definitely not a great selection in the whole scheme of things.  If it sounds like I'm jealous...well, I am!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Number and location of public, semi-private or resort courses done by Tillie, MacK, C.B. and Ross which are accessible to anyone. Whethe they are good representations is not addressed.

Tillinghast:
1- NY

MacKenzie:
5- CA

C.B.:
none

Ross:
19- MA
17- FLA
16- NC
06- NH, PA, OH
05- ME, NY, MI
04- GA
03- CT
02- SC, CO, IN, VA, NJ, RI
01- MS, TN, VT  

[Ed_Baker]

I can vouch for 3 public Ross in Mass. that are excellent architectural examples of his work, George Wright in Hyde Park, and Ponkapoag 1&2 in Canton. The playing condition is another matter at Ponkapoag, G. Wright is usually in decent shape.

[JazzyG]

If you're a Northeast Homey:

Raise your hands in the air.  And, wave them like you just don't care...  

[stat man]

Yes, there are some sweet private courses in the Northeast, if (and that's a big if) you can get on them.   I've got a good job, but still don't feel I can justify $30k plus monthly mins to join even a nondescript club...the 6 figures and 10 year waits for the likes of Winged Food are out of the question.

So here's a typical day of weekend public golf in NJ.   Call 7 days before you want to play.   Feel honored to land a 12:30 tee time.   Pay $80 including mandatory cart.   Tee off at 12:45.   Wait before every shot.  Off the course at 6.    

[Matt_Ward]

stat man:

Your assessment is fairly representative of what the golf experience is like in NJ for many people. One other fact to keep in mind is the ever rising costs to play in the Garden State. According to the National Golf Foundation, NJ is the 8th most expensive state to play golf.

Let me also state that I agree about the issue of access. If you analyze the top courses in three states -- New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, you have the overwheling dominance of private clubs at the highest levels. Arguably, if you also include Pennsylvania, there are no other states in the Union where private golf still has such a stranglehold on the top spots.

In my home state of NJ it's doubtful more than five public courses would break the top 25 barrier and most of them would be closer to #25 than to the top ten. In New York if you had a top 50 for the Empire State, minus the qualities of Bethpage Black, you have slim pickings, possibly you could add Montauk Downs if ever in shape, because the private roster of courses is sooooo strong. Ditto Connecticut -- with the exception of Great River there's little on the public side of the ledger that can compete at the highest level in the Constitution State.

The Northeast is indeed blessed with a number of superb layouts but for many people these layouts are far removed from their basic reality. Truly golf in the Northeast can be best described as the Tale of Two Cities ...  

[Dave_Miller]

I can vouch for 3 public Ross in Mass. that are excellent architectural examples of his work, George Wright in Hyde Park, and Ponkapoag 1&2 in Canton. The playing condition is another matter at Ponkapoag, G. Wright is usually in decent shape.

Bake:

Don't forget Leo J. Martin, another Ross Copurse, with low daily fees and a very good layout.

Worth the price of admission.

Best
Dave

[SnowmanNY]

However when our courses are under 6" of snow in the winter and our friends in the South are playing in turtlenecks, the architecture does not mean a whole lot.

[John Foley]

The public vs private access to great course is so skewed in the Boston-Washington corridor because the private side is SOOOO much better than the public. Taken on it's own, the public access courses are very, very strong. They also tend to be younger and not as many from the great Golden Age archies. Compared to the private great courses though, they are much, much under whelemed especially when the desire to gain acess to the private side is so great.

Who wouldn't want to try and pull some strings to try and get on Pine Valley, Charles River, Winged Foot & Congressional when ending up at Pine Hill, George Wright, Branton Woods & Beachtree would be a very enjoyable. Chances are that most of us would thoughly enjoy the public foursome (well, Pine Hill might be streach ) and comparing those four to what others have, we still have it very, very good.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I guess it is good to be reminded that "the grass is always greener"  I just came away from my weekend up there bewildered by the sheer number of great old classic courses up there.

How soon we forget, I forgot about living in the Bay Area in CA and not being able to get on anywhere on the weekends and paying through the teeth for what you could get on.  So I guess I cant complain about having an afordable club with very little play down here where the weather allows year round golf.  I just needed to be reminded by some others.

ps speaking of my club, I was hoping to hear some feedback from Scott Burroughs on what he thought of Musgrove Mill GClast weekend?  Unfortunately I was up in NJ and couldnt be out there with him.

Turboe

[SnowmanNY]

However when our courses are under 6" of snow in the winter and our friends in the South are playing in turtlenecks, the architecture does not mean a whole lot.

[newtoneagle]

When was the last time members from Charles River played at Leo J?.. ....even the pro at Leo J, who has been there 30 years has never played the course. I like the layout too (most of it) very much, but playing there is worse than chinese water torture. The gap between the private clubs and what is available to the vast majority of golfers in greater Boston is astounding. I would venture that most of the members at Charles River would give up the game if they had to play Leo J, Ponky, or George Wright every saturday.

Private Club members in the NE are extremely spoiled, but your average golfer is starving.

[Stevec16]

Jim Kennedy,

If I am not mistaken, Tillinghast did Cedar Crest in Dallas (hosted '27 PGA - won by W. Hagen). It is a muni, and open the paying masses.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Redan,

Dont know if you will see this, it was from quite a while ago, but I dont think I ever answered your question.  I was getting ready to referance this thread in a current post and when I went back to read through this again, I realized I had not answered your question.

I was playing the Forest Course at Fiddlers Elbow when on the 5th hole 451yd par 4 falling slightly from the tee box, the landing area plays into a slight uphill slope which continues up to the green the entire way.  Shortly after pronouncing how spectacular I thought the hole was from the tee,  I proceded to hit a pretty good drive.  I had 195yds left in uphill.  I hit a perfectly drawing 3I that landed on the front part of the green rolled to the back and into the hole for a 2!!!!  Not bad for the #3 handicap hole.

Thanks for asking.

[BCrosby]

I've asked this before, but why are there so few great courses in Connecticut?

It has everything its neighbors to the north and south have - terrain, lots of pre-1929 money, a large and sophisticated golfing population, private clubs from the Golden Age - yet relatively few top-rated courses. Why?

Bob

[Jerry C]

Jim:
It seems you excluded the other (not Black) Bethpage courses including red and Blue so the number of Tillinghast courses certainly exceed 1.

Number and location of public, semi-private or resort courses done by Tillie, MacK, C.B. and Ross which are accessible to anyone. Whethe they are good representations is not addressed.

Tillinghast:
1- NY

MacKenzie:
5- CA

C.B.:
none

Ross:
19- MA
17- FLA
16- NC
06- NH, PA, OH
05- ME, NY, MI
04- GA
03- CT
02- SC, CO, IN, VA, NJ, RI
01- MS, TN, VT  

[chrisj]

Within 30 minutes of my southern New Hampshire town, I have over 10 courses to play, all public, and most very reasonable (35-45 Walking).  Although they are not all gems, the majority are quite fun to play and challenging in their own right.

Interspersed with my public play, I have had an opportunity to play some of the better private courses, (TCC, Marshfield, Duxbury, Blue Hill).  The biggest difference in public vs. private is condition and pace of play.  Otherwise, we have good public golf here in the north country.  Of the 100 plus courses I have played, (only been playing 7 years, I'll catch up) I still think my favorite is public.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jerry C,
I did a search by architect at golfonline of the public, semi-private and resort courses of those architects. The numbers they showed are what I used. It's likely some are missing or perhaps the architect wasn't listed in the info sent to the website.

BCrosby,
Connecticut has some very fine courses.  Yale, CC of Farmington, Shuttle Meadow, CC of Waterbury, CC of Fairfield, New Haven CC, Richter Park, Shennecossett, Wampanoag, Hop Meadow, Tumble Brook.
It's likely that I missed some on this list, too.  

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