[David Wigler]

#2 highlights both points.  Clearly this picture is intended to show an easier approach from the left and a hard one from the right.  #2 is a 430ish (Correct me if I am wrong) par four.  A picture from the tee would show a fairway that a 747 could easily make an emergency landing on.  Again correct me if I am wrong, but my recollection is that I could be 30 yards left of center of fairway and still be fine.  In essence, I have a 45-yard wide landing are that provides me with the preferred line into the pin before I end up too far right and have to fly the pin.  As hard as the hole plays and with the downhill, I recall hitting a 9-Iron into the green.  With a 60+ yard wide landing area (45 of which allows the preferred shot, this hole could be used to highlight either point).

[David Wigler]

Shivas,

I am desperate for support.  I think you meant that you agree with DaveW not DaveM.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Shivas,

While I agree with you that run-up shots are indeed rarer than many here would like to think or at least ought to be (a big contributor to that is overwatered American conditioning where bump and run is almost impossible), it's not as rare as you might think, because it depends not only on windy and fast & firm conditions, but LIE matters as well.  

The wintertime often has wet conditions, but also, this past winter of ice storms hurt many Bermuda fairways in these parts.  Our fairways are uncharacteristically spotty and unusually wet due to heavy spring rains.  So we have a lot of thin or just plain no grass and wet lies, one of the most difficult types of conditions to hit consistently, especially with lofted clubs.  Well, yesterday I had a couple of instances where I would normally hit lob wedge where I couldn't due to thin, wet lies.  I chose to hit punch shots, which were more reliable even with wet fairways than trying to hit lofted clubs, where I can almost guarantee you I would have chunked both of them.  I made par in both cases (one was like a birdie, on a 660+ yard wet par 5 into a 25 mph wind).

Your point is taken that aerial shots are the preferred method by most.  Firm conditions with front pin placements, even with a gap wedge, necessitate landing in front of the green, I find.  I even find myself attempting more run up shots than I used to, it makes it more fun and I feel turns me into a more complete player.

[Mike_Cirba]

Anyone here aware of how hard the wind often blows in that canyon?

Ask Corey Miller.  

I believe it's the first time he had to "lay down" on a golf course, although I'm sure he can tell the story if he chooses.

Go ahead, take out your lob wedge and throw the ball up in the air and wind, and "drop it" if you can.  Just also remember that beyond that bunker on #2 from the right side the terrain falls away sharply from front to back and right to left.  

Assuming you're coming into a 430 yard hole from 120 is a HUGE assumption with any kind of predominant "up canyon" wind.  

[THuckaby2]

Double-edged sword here, Mike.  If the wind is up-canyon, that means the 2nd will be longer, but easier to stop... if the wind is down-canyon, guys like Shivas and Wigler will get it to 100 yards or so in and thus the shot will be harder to stop, but they will hit a Lob wedge....

I also seem to recall quite a bit of grass over the bunker coming in from the right... It does slope away, so yes, it's not the best angle, but our point remains it doesn't matter much with a wedge in hand.

Blame the equipment today.

TH

[Scott_Burroughs]

The conditions I meant to say was that it wasn't overly wet, enough so that a very thin lie with a lob wedge means I chunk it 80% of the time, but not enough so that I couldn't get some roll.  I punched a 9-iron 70 yards (very low) uphill, bounced 2 or 3 times, and barely crept on to a front pin placement.  Not soaked enough to splash or stick that shot.

Hitting a de-lofted club is easier in wettish thin lies, IMO.  The thinness of the lie was more important to my decision than the moisture, but both were important.  Almost any thin lie I will bump and run if possible.

Too-wet conditions in the U.S. is the big culprit.  Watch the old pro-celebrity events on TGC with players like Sam Snead.  Both the pros and the celebrity amateurs were bumping and running every single time from 70 yards in and around the greens because they could and that's how conditions were then, F&F.  Of course, there were no such thing as lob wedges and possibly even sand wedges, either (can't remember when they were introduced).

[corey miller]

     I played Rustic Canyon on what seemed like a pretty calm day when I left Pasadena.  I should have known something was going on when the guy in the pro-shop said "No wind-checks".  

     On the front nine the course was windy but playable but it really started to pick up on the back nine so much so that I could not stand my bag up and it was a workout walking up canyon on 10-11.  When my fiance's hat blew off and 100 yards backward on 11, I had to lay my bag down perpendicular to the wind and layed behind it to block it.  I do not remember how long it took HER to retreive it but we were done.  We played two holes to get back to the clubhouse.

     On 12 downwind, she hit driver pin high to the right and I hit a four iron through the green.  I then putted back into the wind and got the ball a foot short of flagstick before it blew back to my feet.  I attempted the same shot which this time went beyond the hole and got blown back into the cup for a birdie.

     On 18 I drove the ball through the green  from the 375 yd tee (I was to lazy to walk back into the wind to the tees I had been playing).  I think the same shot from the ~440 tees would have ended up in the same place.

     I would be interested in hearing the results of any bets (err field tests) as to just how RC defends against the long hitter.  It did seem to me the canyon was much windier than other nearby areas.

[THuckaby2]

That's some crazy wind you got, Corey.  We need the regulars to weigh in re what the prevailing wind is... all I know is the two different times I was there, I didn't get any significant wind at all... one was very early am, one was pretty late pm... maybe that explains it...

That kinda wind you got makes the game absurd - you were a wise man to bail!

TH

[THuckaby2]

Well, yes and know, Shivas.  Whilst it sure would be fun to reach a 340 yard hole with a 4iron, and thus hit some 400 yard drives on holes that allow it, 80 yard drives into the wind are rarely fun, and when the ball won't sit still on the green, well.... absurd is the word!

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I differ there from you guys on the wind issue. Yes, for someone out of town, you don't have much choice because you are only there so long, and you want to play the course, but in my minds eye, that Mighty Wind is good once in a while for the Golfer's soul. Some of us need it to realize that our game is not bigger then the Game.

Unfortunate Corey that you had to experience the course like that, and you were victim to the much fabled Santa Ana Condition.

Generally, the prevailing wind is always coming from the coast or county line where the Santa Monica mountains ends right near Pt. Magu. I guess it would be called southeasterly if you put a compass point on it, but throughout Happy Camp, if you get to the western side of the canyon, more specifically holes 6, 7, 8 & 17 it blows differently there because of the winds swirlling around. It is quite a phenomenon to stand on #5 tee and see # 5 flag blowing one way, and #6 blowing exactly the opposite. In a Santa Ana condition, which occured out there a lot during this winter, the winds got pretty fierce, to the point, if one walked off, it would be understandable, but I wouldn't have done it. I would have taken my licks:)

This year's late winter conditions were because of the cold front that kept on coming in from Alaska, combined with the SA condition, it wasn't allowing the warmth which usually coincides with it to happen. Still, we had a pretty mild winter, much better then some people:)

[Dan Grossman]

When I played RC, the greens were hard and I had a hard time getting it close.  With a wedge from the angle of DavidM's picture, The ball still would have released 10 feet, probably 20 if it was dead down wind.  So, to get it CLOSE and make birdies, I needed to put the ball on a specific part of the fairway.  When I didn't, I usually had a tough two putt par or an up-and-down for par.  

After making a bunch of bogies in the first couple of holes from being on the wrong side, the fairways tightened up (in my mind) and the course became much more demanding.

But - that was only because the greens were hard and you couldn't stop a wedge on dime.  

[Dan Kelly]

Say it with me everyone -- GOLF IS NOT BILLIARDS. GOLF IS NOT BILLIARDS.  GOLF IS NOT BILLIARDS.

OK, fine: GOLF IS NOT BILLIARDS.

Let me add: GOLF IS NOT POOL.

Not to mention: GOLF IS NOT SNOOKER!

But riddle me this, Shivas-man (et alia):

True or False: Part of the golf-course architect's job is to snooker you into thinking that golf has nothing in common with those cue-and-ball games -- and to show you that, in fact, it does:that requiring you to think one shot (or several) into the future is as central to good golf-course design as it is to playing any of those cue-and-ball games.  

[DMoriarty]

RC 2 is 457 yds from the back.  You get some roll, but don't get a huge amount of fairway roll on the fairways at Rustic even when it is very hard, because of the rye grass is thick and grows and grows.  

Sounds like Corey Miller caught a Santa Ana day, we had more Santa Ana days this winter/spring then I expected. The prevailing is somewhat angling but generally blows up canyon.   But the wind at Rustic is very strange.  Because of the canyon, the wind direction isnt very consistent at all.  Two flags near each other will often be blowing in opposite directions.  One will tee off with the wind at their backs and when they get to the green it will be in their faces.  

As for wind speed it is completely unpredictable, varying from zero to flag bending.  No matter what the wind feels like on the ground, it is alway blowing much harder the higher your shot goes.

As for David W.'s suggestion about RC 2 having a 45 yard preferred spot, I dont think this is accurate.  The entire hole is bordered by an OB on the left, which is pretty close to the fairway.  The closer you are to the OB the better your angle to most of the pin placements. (Some like to go right, near the bathtub and cut bunkers, for certain other pins, but I dont.)  This incremenally increasing danger is a key factor to Rustic's hazards.  Mike Cirba described these as a rachet sprinkler hazard, where one inches closer and closer to the trouble, before going too far, then quickly racheting all the way back to the middle before starting the process again.    

As for the bunkers, they are set well in front of the green, which should take the actual bunkers out of play for good ball strikers.  (The hidden bunkers just right of the green are more in play.) So what do they accomplish?  1) They make the shot from the right more visually indimidating by taking the landing area out of view.  2) More importantly, the slope behind them magnifies the "down canyon" drop from the right side of the hole.  

Simply, if the course is running hard and fast, it is quite difficult to stop the ball on the green from the right side of the fairway, because the shot is directly down canyon.   Even if you do stop it, it is tough to make it stop where you want it to stop, something very important on this green.  From the left side one can play short of the hole (between the bunker and the green) and sort of bank the ball into the hole.

As for hitting a wedge in, i guess it is possible, but even with a wedge is more difficult than you might expect to get close, because of the down canyon and slope of the green.  Plus, do you guys really always hit the ball 330 yds into a quartering or side wind?  If so, I am quite impressed!

I will say this about RC 2.  More than most of the holes, it needs to play hard and fast around the green for the hole to work.  When they overwater short and right of the hole, the hole just doesnt work as it should.  But when they don't, it is a heck of a lot of fun.

Shivas your "this green sounds unfair if it is that hard "comment  is misplaced, because there is a perfectly reasonable and doable way to play the hole and get the ball where you want it on the green.

As far as this being an "outside course factor,"  the course was designed to play hard and fast, at least as hard and fast as it usually plays.  The "outside factor" would be when it is not maintained hard and fast.  

[THuckaby2]

I will say this about RC 2.  More than most of the holes, it needs to play hard and fast around the green for the hole to work.  When they overwater short and right of the hole, the hole just doesnt work as it should.  But when they don't, it is a heck of a lot of fun

DM - can you see my disconnect then?  When I played the course it was very wet in front and the green itself was pretty soft, as my 2iron stopping within 3 feet showed.  It didn't work as a golf hole in that condition, as I said at the time or in one of the many other times we've discussed Rustic (it all blends together now!).  Make it firm and fast and oh yes, one does get an advantage coming on from the left... But still, firm and fast also means a lot of roll, so the big hitters are still gonna be hitting a very lofted club in... Thus this hole can't be everything for everybody, which to me is ok.  One thing it does NEED to be is firm and fast, or else it's blah for everybody.  Well, maybe not "blah" but certainly not a great golf hole.  Agreed?

Does it generally play firm and fast, with conditions Dan G. described?  If so, fantastic.  

TH

[Jeff Goldman]

Folks,

From the way DavidM describes the hole, if you are on the right (wrong) side, you can be hitting into a downslope, and even a lob wedge won't be great.  Whereas, if on the left (correct) side of the fairway, you can hit into an upslope or backstop.  Obviously, this depends upon where the hole is, but even if one could almost drive the green and stop the ball on top of the bunker in the picture, in theory you might be better off in the fairway on the left with a better chance to get it close.  Is this right?  Sounds strategic to me.

Jeff [Kidney stone passed saturday night and back in the game] Goldman

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tom, I was just gettting ready to call you and tell you to play the course in the afternoon with me, AFTER you get done at Moronpark. Bring your Dad, cousins, grandmother or even your wife if you need too.

[DMoriarty]

Tom, I think that your experience is a very good example of why raters should be very hesitant to draw too many conclusions from one visit.  

As for hard and fast equalling more roll on drives:  This is true to an extent, but not as true as it would seem.  The fairways are rye and the rye grows very well in the sandy base.  So, while the fairways are always springy, even after rain, they never get that fast.  Sure there are spots where they get baked or worn where they get concrete hard and fast, but this is not the overall feel of the course.

As for the green complexes, both the greens and the huge approaches are bent, and the ball runs quite a lot more on the shaved bent then it does on the rye fairway.  The area short and right of the 2nd green is shaved bent.  

Dont get me wrong, there is roll at Rustic, just much more around the greens than in the fairway.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dave,
Count all of us that get to play Rustic all of the time as the ones that are having our fair share of cake.

When I play favor to play Rustic Canyon, it is in the later part of the day when the fairways are wonderfully fast, and the greens firm which allow the golf ball to wander all over the green on any approach. It isn't as rock hard as any of the courses at St. Andrews, but it is firm. The last thing I would suggest to anybody though is trying to compare it to another fast & firm course, like a links or prarie course because this course is in a natural canyon where water is supposed to run-off. Still it is totally amazing how the sand base drains the course so well and so quick.

Come out here and see for yourself Dave, I think you will be somewhat impressed.

[DMoriarty]

How hard and fast?  So hard that a good player with high swing speed like Dan Grossman can't stop a crisp wedge from the fairway with no wind to the flat part of a green?  If the course is that hard and fast on the green, why don't the fairways play that hard, too?  The ball should be bouncing like a superball on fairways that hard.

Shivas, I dont know how to answer the first part of your question, because there are no flat spots on the greens at Rustic.  But they are (or should be) hard and fast enough that Dan might not be able to count on his usual degree of stoppage on a green that slopes away from him.  

See my explanation to Tom for the rest.

[DMoriarty]

One more thing and then I have to go.

There is a real speed limit to how fast Rustic should be allowed to get for every day play.  If it gets too hard and fast, it would become virtually unplayable and unputtable for the vast majority of golfers.  The land and features just have too much slope.  

That being said, it would be a simple task to rachet up the "hard and fast" meter, if the course ever desired to make things difficult for a high level tournament.  

In essense, I would say that on a day to day basis, Rustic is slightly "watered down" just to keep it playable and things moving along.  

[THuckaby2]

Firm and fast would be wonderful at Rustic.  Alas, neither time I was there it was that way... I trust you regulars though that it does get that way, and that is great news.

DM - as for raters not making too much out of one time around, believe me, at least for me that is factored in when submitting "rating" results.  I stick to the general and answer the questions asked as best I can.  Unfortunately, it's just the reality of life that one time is sometimes all we get.  I was fortunate to see Rustic twice - once riding and looking, once playing.  Trust me that any perceived weakness on #2 never factored into my assessment at all - it's just in discussions like this that such comes out.

And Tommy, oh would that the same realities of life would allow a round at Rustic on June 20... I believe you would get a kick out of my family group as much as they would of you!  Sadly we have non-golfing wives and kids who are only grudgingly allowing the morning away.  Next time!

TH

ps to DM - just saw your post - it's absolutely understood that RC can't be TOO firm and fast or else the 5 hour rounds commonplace now would mean 7 hours.  Such is the reality of a popular public course... oh well....

[DMoriarty]

Exactly, Dave, but which one is it?  If you bomb a driver up the right side of #2, and have a gap wedge in, can you hold the sucker over the bunker on not?  If not, the hole is strategic because your only chance to get it close is to hug left.  If so, and there's no price to be paid for missing right off the tee,then it's not.  That, it seems to me, is really all this boils down to.  

Shivas, I assume you are asking whether RC2 actually is hard and fast?  I would have to say, generally yes.  But they do tend to overwater when it gets very hot, so it can be wet in the morning, usually drying off by afternoon.  

 One other thing, sort of the reverse of your point above.  If they have over-watered enough to make it so your approach wont release, then the fairway will be wet also and you will not likely have a lob wedge to the flag, unless you can carry the ball around 340+ yds.

Also, remember that this course differs from other courses we discuss (including, I would guess, some of the public courses such as Wildhorse) in that the course will suffer through 70,000-80,000 paid rounds per year.   It has to be set up to handle this type of play, so it probably doesnt play anywhere near its ideal on a day to day basis.  Don't get me wrong, I think it plays great on a day to day basis, but it would be fun to see what the course could do to the "quality player" if they tweaked it a little for tournament play.  

I have a hard time criticizing a public course that sometimes sets up slightly soft to maintain the integrity of the course.  After all, it is not as if they are asking anyone to carry and play off of artificial mats in order to save the turf.  

[THuckaby2]

My opinions on #2, based on seeing it twice:

The bottom line is that David M. had it correct several posts ago.  It doesn't "work" when it's kept anything but firm and fast, exactly because the line coming in from the right ceases to exact any penalty whatsoever.

Now David M. is also correct in saying we cannot, and should not, hold this "against" the golf course too much, because they have to keep the course less than screaming firm and fast, lest the 5 hour rounds become 7.  This is a massively played public golf course and that's just the way it is.

These are the realities.  You have a golf hole that is very well designed - oh yes, it is a beauty... no one has mentioned the semi-blind pot bunker way out to the right that can catch the completely non-thinking wayward drive... the green and green surround is one of 18 there that are brilliant... BUT... it doesn't play to the brilliance that it might.

That's kind of sad, but hey, the golf world isn't a fully happy place!

So how should one assess this golf hole - based on its design or on how it realistically plays?  My feeling is you kinda punt and split it down the middle... acknowledge the great design, but also acknowledge the reality of how it plays... evaluate it with all of this in mind....

And then enjoy the hell out of it if you do catch it firm and fast!

David M. - I still defer to you re this golf course.  Am I close on this?

TH

[Lou_Duran]

After shooting three rounds in the mid to upper 80s away from home this weekend, I should be the last person to comment here.  But, to procrastinate further from work I need to be doing, here it goes.

I find this discussion quite fascinating simply because most of us who play the Game are just happy to find short grass anywhere on the golf course.  The thought of challenging a fairway bunker or the out-of-bounds line for the sake of getting a better angle to the green is rather foreign in practice.  I will admit that on the very rare occasions when I do pull it off, nearly always by accident, it is a very good feeling.

It is ironic to me that the skilled golfer who could take advantage of strategic principles generally find a way to play the course based on the theory that the shortest route is a straight line.  In the absence of severe wind, these guys can hit over bunkers or lakes and back-up a ball on anything but a large downslope.  Unlike most of us, they can stop a ball from heavy rough.

Spacious, firm courses do allow the high handicapper to gain more distance and live to hit another recovery shot.  If the greens are moderately sloped and not rock hard, they make it easier to score.  But both of these factors also make the game infinitely easier for "the skilled golfer".  I ask the question again, what would the Tour pro shoot at RC under normal conditions?   Maybe somethink like the 62 - 61 Stewart Cink shot in the US Open qualifier at a couple of club courses in Ohio.  I would like to be convinced that a course can be designed to challenge and interest all classes of golfers simultaneously.  Sadly, in my opinion, the gulf between the top echelon and the rest of us is the size of an ocean and growing.            

[Scott_Burroughs]

Lou,

Double Eagle is a 'club course'?  (site of his 61)


Your point is taken, Lou, as I discussed this with another here offline a short time ago.  Strategy in a true sense is overrated for most of us, as we're just happy to hit it fairly straight while connecting decently.  Except for the scratch guys, I'm simply happy with hitting it in the fairway, and I'm usually in the 5-7 handicap range.  I absolutely cannot predict where my drives are gonna go, but I can aim a certain way to try to increase the percentages.  

I can predict a little better where my irons are going to end up, so I can use strategy better than with the driver.

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