[Patrick_Mucci]

This is an offshoot to Golfcoursesuper's post on Nicklaus.

I had been led to believe that for many years the fade was viewed as a poor or mis-hit golf shot, a shot to be punished or not rewarded.  
It was the draw that was the shot of preference.

Did Nicklaus's arrival with the power fade alter the course of architecture in America ?

Did it place the fade on an equal footing with the draw from a playability and architectural point of view ?

[Bill_McBride]

I was under the impression that Hogan's career came into full flower when he gave up on the draw and developed a much more accurate fade.  Nicklaus could be viewed as a "Jack-come-lately."

[Jeff Mingay]

Pat,

To preface your point, it seems the "power fade" is a by-product of changes in golf course maintenance; principally the introduction of comprehensive fairway irrigation.

In days gone by, when the ground was more consistently running firm and fast, a low draw (particularly from the tee) was in order. But then, as the ground became more consistently soft, good players (a la Hogan, and later Nicklaus) realized that a "power fade" was the necessary shot (particularly on approach).

Comprehensive golf course irrigation resulted in a change in style of play, which in turn, effected golf course design philosophies. I agree.

For a long while the ground game was completely ignored because the ground was simply too soft. Approaching along the ground was (and, sadly, still is in many cases) impossible, so architects closed the entrance to greens with bunkers, ponds and other hazards. This "trick" only assisted to further promote the necessity of a "power fade."

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

In what time frame were automatic irrigation systems introduced and installed at most courses in the US ?

Nicklaus rose to competitive prominence in his teens in the fifties.  Jack Grout his teacher/coach learned the game and played before automatic sprinkler systems were in the ground, so I'm curious, which came first, Nicklaus's early instruction on the prefered flight of the ball, his possible transformation to the power fade from a draw, or automatic irrigation systems.

Jack's flying right elbow seemed to predispose the flight of his ball from left to right.

Would a dramatic increase in the cost of water coupled with a dramatic decrease in its availability reverse the course of architecture you describe ?

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

I think I would look at this subject a big differently!

I have no idea if the "power fade" actually altered the course of architecture. Nicklaus's well known power fade may have effected HIS architecture!

But in the old days before fairway irrigation was commonplace and before greens were irrigated in a manner to make them softer the players of yesteryear by no means tried to hit a "running draw" off the tee all the time or most of the time. They tended to do such things when they figured they needed it only.

Those players of yesteryear (the good ones) sometimes had a lot of different shots in their arsenals and were what we now consider the old fashioned "shot makers".

Basically "shot making" was to hit the shot required for any given situation almost out of necessity and it very much related to a course's architecture and the necessities of playing it as effectively as possible.

For approach shots to greens many of those old "shot making" players not only tried but relied on their entire "shot arsenal" of "shot making".

For approaches over or around fronting bunkers or whatever their choice was generally the "cut shot" that put a good deal of "spin" on the ball and gave them control to work it and stop the ball quickly!

Also the equipment and the balls of those days could do far more in the way a "shape" and degrees of trajectory etc.

The real reason I know this is my Dad was a very good player who spent most of his mid-life playing some of America's good tournaments and I used to shag balls for him all the time when I was a kid at Piping Rock and also a big field sodded field (it was all fairway grass) next to where we lived on Long Island!

Dad said he had seven different ways of hitting any shot! I never did actually figure out what the 7th was but when he practiced he would start with a SW and work up to the driver! And in doing this he would actually hit each of those shots six different ways with six different shapes and trajectories.

I used a first baseman's mitt and he would just wave me farther out as he went through his shot arsenal. But I remember it all so well even today. I would stand there and his shots would come in from the right, the left, high, low etc. I never even had to move much! I could really see the ball curving on way and the other particularly as he got up to the longer irons and woods!

It meant nothing to me then but now it does because I doubt anyone does stuff like that anymore and would probably find it hard to do (harder than back then) because this equipment today doesn't allow it so easily.

And later in his career (I wasn't shagging for him then) but he once said he really didn't have to do all those shots so much because the equipment had made a standard aerial shot much easier and the courses and maintenance of them was changing too.

That's one of the reasons I've called my Dad a "transition player". Plus he worked for Spalding and he knew everything about balls and equipment.

But those old "shot makers" would be amazing to watch today. They hit all kinds of shots all the time and most of the ones Dad played with in the early years would call their shots too!

But one of the most interesting shots was that "cut shot" approach! Dad used to use about two more clubs to do! And you could really tell in his setup, grip and swing plane too!

It's a lost art now, I'm sure! But they did it because they felt they had to! And I always felt they were "playing the architecture". I'm certain that was true!

You should hear Linc Roden on this particular subject! If he could he's like to bring this back to golf--all the way back!!

[A_Clay_Man]

Here near the slopes of the Rockies, water became very tight this summer. As a result many of the courses have had to do things. Things like not watering fairways. One course even closed because they were told "no More Agua". Prior to closing, the grass wasn't cut at all, for fear they would lose thier turf. I wondered how viable that decision was? and if any of our resident super supers could elaborate on that notion.

While the architecture wasn't altered the course was, and significantly, from a playability aspect. Which gives more credence to the maintenance meld.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Actually some of the tournament greats of the earlier years and certainly including Hogan, Nicklaus AND Trevino were natural hookers!!

It was through constant practice, dedication and concentration that all of them learned to use and depend on the fade!!

Nicklaus's famous "flying right elbow" had nothing to do with a natural fade, at least not to him and not according to some of his early instruction books! Hogan, with his famous fade kept his right elbow extremely close to his hip back and through! It would incense Nicklaus, according to Grout, if he hit a shot with even a few yards of draw!

Those three were probably unusual in that they were the best known to start to rely so heavily on a single shot type like the fade. A player like Snead hit a whole variety of shot types at will! And of course Nelson was apparently well known as the first player who tried to rely on the absolute straight shot, certainly with his irons--the man they say was the first with the "modern swing" (designed for the steel shafts!).

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I'd say it is the other way around. The designs of RTJ and Dick Wilson. Elevated well bunkered greens and an abundance of water hazards. And quite possibly Color TV and its effect on maintenance.

[Jeff Mingay]

Enjoyed your post, Tom Paul. And wouldn't it be great to see more of today's top players, both professional and amateur, hit shots like your dad could! Great stuff. I agree, shotmaking is a lost art.

Anyway, I don't know enough about the evolution of Jack Nicklaus' swing to comment on his "flying elbow" or the instruction he received from Jack Grout. All I was trying to convey, in general terms, in my first (early morning) post is that as golf course's in America became more consistently soft following the introduction of comprehensive fairway irrigation in the 1950s, the best golfers must have come to realize that a high fade was the most effective shot to approach (over) irrigated greens than was bouncing the ball in. Thus, a change in playing style... a long, high fade (with spin on the ball) became a pretty effective shot to consistently rely on as course maintenance progressively became more standardized, and putting greens became more consistently soft, beginning in the 1950s.

Of course, this is a generalization, and not to say that Hogan or Nicklaus was the first golfer to hit a "power fade". I'm sure Harry Vardon had a similar shot in his reportoire as well. Still, I think my theory makes some sense. Perhaps not!

[Steve Lang]

On topic.. I think a little, yes.  

I wonder at times if the prevalent modern setting with parallel housing developments has had more influence than ball flight in architectural preferences for routings on any given property?

However, the in the modern PGA heritage architectural powers competition, hasn't    Palmer kept it going straight with preference for left doglegs in his designs, while jack had to go straight and right to fit their eye of ball flight and design distance needs?  Hasn't the newer Shark, or Feddy Couples, Coore & Cresnshaw or even Jacobsen/Hardy collaborations reflected their ball flight and shot making capabilities?

------------------------------------------------------
Ramblings..
From my readings on Hogan.. I thought his main issue growing up was that the draw was necessary for length, i.e., for a small guy to keep up with bigger (older) players, with its obvious dark side.  Later he simply rationalized on the basis of consistency that on approaches to a deep pin one typically had to draw it on and then back to the hole, while on a short pin one had to fade it to stop it short on a green (with obvious variations).  Consistency also led him to not use the driver if he didn't need to and if he did, the power fade gave more consistent results for driving the ball (i.e., placing / stopping it) where it was needed for an approach.

Jack, on the other hand, grew up playing much different courses in Ohio than Hogan did early in Texas, and undoubtedly benefitted from studying Hogan's pro-style.  Why not fly over trouble if you have the shot?  I remember Jack saying one time how he learned to pick the ball off the ground so as not to take divots, which is done at some considerable peril to one's wrists in the hard clay of some Ohio courses.

Also.. Let's not forget the fat factor!  As one afflicted with dun-laps disease (it dun laps over my belt), its easy for the right elbow to get stuck on your stomach when trying to keep it on your hip and voila' that "natural fade" if you don't fully release.

I was taught in my first true golf lesson, (circa 1964 by one of those infamous "Wednesday golfing doctor" types) that a golf shot's "order" was grip, stance, then swing and that the ball could go straight, left or right because of any of those three things.  Practice was the ony way to get consistent and one needed to practice changes to those things to develop shot making skill.  Perhaps part of the "golden 7 ways" of your dad Tom?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
Nicklaus' flying elbow was part of his quest for extension.

The gradual shift in ball type and swing types that have emerged added to the aerial repertoire of shots. The higher shot, especially with the Haskell ball, predates widespread irrigation.  I would presume this had some effect on architect's looking at new defenses to scoring, i.e., how do you protect a hole against the aerial bombardment? I'm not saying that irrigation didn't have an effect, just that there are many elements that intermingle to have an effect on architecture.  

[Jeff Mingay]

Jim,

You "hit the nail on the head." There are many factors that have intermingled to effect architectural style over the years... Irrigation? Playing styles? The evolution of golf ball technology? And how about the introduction of wider soles on golf clubs, as it relates to a higher ball flight? I made the mistake of generalizing above. My point has been misinterpreted. Nonetheless...

How do you protect a hole against the aerial bombardment? Pitch the green from front-to-back... but be sure to maintain a firm approach. Otherwise that green is bound to be misinterpreted as well  

[TEPaul]

Jeff Mingay:

You asked; "How do you protect the hole against aerial bombardment?"

My feeling is you do not really need to do it through architecture as much as through a maintenance application!

I think the essential ingredient in the whole firm and fast area of the "ideal maintenance meld" is really all about the necessary GREEN FIRMNESS for that particular type of course. I'm not talking about greenspeed, just green firmness!

That, in my opinion, is the key ingredient to protecting a golf course against constant aerial bombardment!!

Steve Lang:

Interesting post about the fundamentals of the swing and how to play different shots--at least the way they did in the old days.

Grip, stance, swing plane, I was told were the fundamentals those old guys relied on to alter the shapes of their shots and the trajectories of them.

My Dad taught me those fundamentals he always relied on when I was a kid although I never got interested in golf until around 35.

But he always used those fundamentals and varied them to hit those shots and use that shot inventory of his and also to get over his slumps and stuff. If something was consistently going wrong he would tend to go the opposite extreme. In other words, if he was hooking the ball he would go to the other extreme and try to hit fades or cuts for a while.

His advice to me was to teach myself out of problems by what he called: "Letting the ball be your teacher."

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I now understand why you post the things you do.

You forgot to wear your catchers mask and helmet when you were shagging balls for your dad  

My dad used to practice in a similar fashion, working the ball in a variety of flight patterns.  Remember too, that the sand wedge was a new club for them, prior to Sarazen inventing it, they had to rely on hand and wrist action in order to execute exotic shots.

But, Littler, Casper, Palmer and others drew the ball.
Hogan was the exception rather than the rule, and he never hit the power fade, nor did he hit the ball anywhere near as high as Nicklaus.  His fade was more a result of trying to undo the hook that plaqued him in his early career.

Softer greens would seem to indicate that any ball flight would be accepted.  I would think that hard greens would promote the fade.  I think Jeff is correct in that the fairways became soft and unpredictable, and thus the pros took almost exclusively to the aerial game.

But your right, the shotmakers hit whatever shot was dictated by the architecture or situation.  Today, for the most part, that is a lost art.  Even Hale Irwin lamented its diminishment due to self correcting equipment, to me.

Even though we had a drought this summer, most courses seemed wet, even GCGC.

Unless the availability of water goes down, and its cost goes up, I can't see any internal change, that will reverse the trend Jeff described.

P.S.  Didn't you start getting headaches after being clocked by two or three balls.

P.S.S.  Which ones hurt the most, the ones you saw but couldn't get out of the way of, or the ones you never saw  

[ChipOat]

Patrick:

I don't know if there are more "faders' holes" built these days than in the Golden Era - should we examine all the par 4's and 5's from 20 "great" courses built between 1911 and 1938 versus a similar comparison since 1970 or so?  How else could we prove/disprove your thesis?

I have a couple other of related comments.

1) Has a FADE been historically thought to be a missed shot or a SLICE?  I submit the latter.

2) As Hogan grew prosperous from the contolled fade, so to was Trevino quoted as saying, "you can talk to a fade - a hook won't listen".

3)  Raymond Floyd was quoted as saying that, "a fade might be the easier shot to control but nobody can be a good player unless they can hit a draw when they need to".

Whether that's true today or not is debatable.  What IS true is that the "better" ball strikers can probably count on a natural right-to-left ball flight unless they're setting up for a fade.

Hookers can become faders (just ask Craig Stadler) much more easily than slicers can make themselves into "draw-ers".

[Matt_Cohn]

To me the power fade has had a very small effect on one aspect of architecture: the "hero" hole, the 18th hole along the edge of a lake or creek or ocean. I had a small post on this a while ago. Pebble Beach, Doral, Sawgrass, PGA West...all 18th hole dogleg lefts around water. This trend just seems to keep going, all originating from the fact that 70  years ago, all the good players hit draws. Why didn't Mackenzie build 13 at Augusta in the other direction?!

Give Fazio credit for making the 18th at Victoria National a slinging dogleg right around a lake?!

[Steve Lang]

,

TIME OUT!  "Drawers" better ball strikers than "faders"  

The last I knew it, a "power fade" with a driver was = to a draw in that both have "more overspin than side spin", they simply differ on coming from 5 ° inside the line or 5° outside the line, give or take a couple of degrees.  Hooks and slices are different animals.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I completely agree with everything you said in your last post (as odd as that may seem to some)! Except of course me ever getting hit! Never happened! The only way to get hurt was to catch a ball in the palm instead of the webbing of the first baseman's mitts my brother and I used to shag. My left hand was always pretty rosy though after a couple hundred shags!

Chip:

I couldn't agree more that even career faders were generally hookers in the beginning! As much as Nicklaus came to hate to hit a draw (unless intentionally) it can be seen in some of his instruction books that he always felt any good golfer should first learn to naturally hit a draw and to then work into a fader (if so inclined)!

[TEPaul]

Pat:

Funny story from a tour player from Long Island who I believe became the pro at GCGC (before your time there), by the name of Mike Long!

Played with him a few times around Gulf Stream many years ago. Man could that guy play--just gorgeous swing! Unfortunately he was sort of crazy (I'm serious--I think eventually they put him away).

But he was telling me about what the PGA schools and tour schools were like with all this business stuff and such that none of the players were interested in! And for the  commencement address for his class (or whatever) they had Dutch Harrison come in to speak!

So all these young players were ready to hear some complex technical speech from this old guy and Dutch sauntered up to the podium, stood there looking at these young guys for a long moment and delivered his commencement address which consisted of this:

"Boys, let me tell you how to play this game! Don't hit the draw or hook because you're gonna be under a f.... bush and out of play!"

And Dutch sauntered back to his seat and sat down!

[Mike_Young]

I think the power fade evolved with the modern golf swing where a player basically tries to "block" the ball therefore allowing him to hit it harder.  The pronation in the older "draw" type was not consistent and also the shafts did not have the torque that we now have.  I don't necessarily agree that the power fade changed architecture since most all modern shots whether due to equipment, or the player seem to have a higher trajectory.  Some still say the major factor in all of this is LOFT.  ( Lots Of F......Talent or Lack Of F...... Talent.)  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Lang,

Jack Nicklaus was a superior, well conditioned, high school athlete in his teens, when he was developing into a world class golfer.

Dun-lap was not a factor in his early, fomative years.

Jeff Mingay,

I think you're correct in that irrigation systems played a material part in the demise of the ground game.

But, it seems that Nicklaus, the popularity of the PGA Tour, and Television arrived at about the same time, exposing millions of viewers, including architects to witness Nicklaus's power fade game.

I was impressed at NGLA on the 4th hole, the Redan, when the pin was up close to the fronting bunker on the far back left portion of the green, into the wind, and most were hitting draws with limited success in getting close to the pin,
when a top player hit a high power fade two feet from the pin.  Later in the day, I witnessed the same player hit the same shot downwind.

That incident left a lasting impression with respect to the benefit of a high power fade.  And, I would imagine knowledgeable elements of the television audiences came away with the same impression when watching Nicklaus, perhaps leading to a possible altering of the course of golf architecture.

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