[Paul_Turner]

On the Dead Architects Survivor thread, James Braid was voted off first and Gleneagles came in for a bit of criticism.  I haven't played it, but from these pics it looks super.  So why doesn't it get better reviews?

Alister Mackenzie hated the course, but then he had tried for the job and perhaps it was sour grapes?

(Photos: Jeroen Pit)


1st

2nd

3rd (Surely a bunker in that bank at one time)

Again

5th Volcano

6th

Again

8th

9th

Again

Again

12th

13th

14th

Again

[Paul Richards]

Paul:

To me, the Gleneagles Kings course is a really underrated course.  I really, really like it, and, too, am surprised that it has never gotten the accolades that I feel it deserves.

[Paul Richards]

Paul:

Also, thanks for posting those great pics!

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

I always enjoy playing Gleneagles (Kings or Queens--the Nicklaus course is another matter entirely...... .  Nevertheless, on the Kings:

--too many holes have an obvious and relatively easy line for the drive.  Not a lot of thought required on the tee.
--greens tend to be lacking in any interesting movement.  A fair amount of slope on some, but mostly unidirectional.
--green complexes themselves generally have more bark than bite.  The volcano hole looks intimidating, for example, but getting up and down from a mishit tee shot is not usually a great challenge
--The course is short and plays short.  However, to toughen it up they have to make it really fast and firm, which makes it even shorter, which is not really acceptable to today's punter, so......they make it soft, and longer, and grow in the rough, which makes it even less interesting, strategically.  See the left hand side of the 1st in the pictures above.  This hole did have some strategic interest when the proper line was to flirt with the the bunkers there--which are now effectively out of play.

The course can be spectacularly beautiful.  There are some very interesting holes on it (2, 6, 11, 14 and 17 come to mind).  The hotel is worth visiting by itself, at least for a drink or lunch if you can't afford to splurge and stay there.  The Scots love the place and would probably prefer to play there than Muirfield or TOC.  But.........

........in the top 20 GBI courses?  No way, Jose!

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

When Ran wrote the introduction to my Banff piece saying that the Kings Course was a forgotten inland course, I was excited to see it.

When I saw the course in September, it was not playing hard, but apparently much drier than it had been at points this summer.

My impressions were the opposite of Rich’s; the green complexes can be as difficult as any I have seen.  This includes the bunkers fronting the first green, fairway bunkers on three, front right bunker on five.  The steepness is quite remarkable.

The sharp lines stand out particularly due to the wonderful piece of property.

I would also say that there is real interest from the tee here.  Particularly on 3, 6, 7, 12, 13, 14 and 15.

The greens are not back-breakers but very still a solid set.

The course in remarkably beautiful, with large rolling hills surrounding.

I think this course deserves to be looked at for the World top 100.

The fourth may be one of the hardest par fours around.

[Paul Richards]

Ben:

I would have to say I concur with your assessment.

Also, the Queens is a fun course, if a bit on the short side.

The Nicklaus course - well, it is fun for NO other reason than it is the only course I got to play in Scotland on a cart!  We had the course to ourselves and played about 100 holes in 6 hours!  Of course, we were late to dinner, and that was a big no-no with the host of our trip!

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Ben

Your experience there is more recent than mine, and I respect your opinion, but I think that calling the Kings a potential World top 100 is stretching it a bit.  This puts it in with the likes of Pasatiempo, Mid Ocean, Zoute, Rye, Prestwick, Plainfield, Yale etc. who are all outside the gate on that one now.  I just don't see it in the same category as those tracks (and many others), for the reasons I stated above.  But, of course, I could be wrong.....

[Paul Turner]

Rich

I'm afraid to tell you, but you're line of thinking is similar to the Doctor's!  He thought the course lacked the need for any strategy on tee shots.  He much prefered the Queens.

In Britain, we grew up seeing the course on TV, usually on some "Pro-Celebrity" show with Alliss on BBC2.  It used to always look like it played v.fast then, and I remember Tom Watson hitting a huge drive at the 18th.  But the most memorable shot was from a UK chat show host and terrible golfer: Terry Wogan- he holed an enormous putt on the 18th, which for a while was in the Guiness book of records as the longest televised holed putt.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Good point Rich, that may have been stretching it a bit.

Though I do feel that the Kings Course is better than Mid
Ocean.  The course has relatively few weak spots, but
perhaps less outstanding holes as well.

I really do not see the greatest weakness being driving
strategy, but more that of the greens themselves.

I am not aware of how much has changed in the greens,
from Braid's original routing, so perhaps that has changed.

With all due respect to the good doctor, the Kings course
is far superior to the Queens, in my opinion, of course.  

Rich,
How does Kings compare to Prestwick, for you?  Prestwick surely cannot play longer, can it?

[Paul Richards]

Ben:

I'll tackle your question.

King's is a better golf course - more challenging.  However, Prestwick has all that history   and is a helluva lot of fun to play!

King's, Prestwick, and North Berwick are all in the same category to me - a lot of fun, good courses that just don't quite make the top 100.  I would love to play all three of them again, and again and again!

[ian]

I'm a big fan of the King's. The stretch of 13 through 15 represents one of the best changes of pace on a golf course. An extremely testy long four where two great shots are required, a driveable par four, and a very long but wide open four where the prudent play is bounce the ball into the green. What a great stretch of holes. There are many very dramatic holes that use the land extremely well, I really don't know why the course does not get more praise. Could it be that it is not a traditional Scotish course.

[Paul Turner]

One thing's for sure, it must be near the top for beauty!  It has a unique look too, which I think is important.

I actually found Prestwick to be a pretty difficult course.  Much more so than I expected.

[Jonathan Cummings]

In my mind from a tactical and esthetic standpoint, The King's Course is the finest inland course in the British Isles.  The Braid/Hutchison bold and subtle bunkering is inspired from the first to the last hole.  The green complexes are arranged to maximize variations in approach angle difficulty.  And the views of Auchterarder and the surrounding Midlands as shown in the above pics speak for themselves.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Ben

It's been some time since I've played Prestwick, so it's hard for me to make a comparison, but I would say the two courses are probably fairly similar in "difficulty", under normal playing conditions.  My guess is that Prestwick could be set up to be tougher than could the Kings, because it has more "vitality" to it, per the Simpson quote Tommy N brought up in another thread.  To me, the Kings just lays there, looks at you and says "play me!" while Prestwick teases you and toys with you and offers you many more angles of approach and chances for "death or glory."  For those reasons it is both more fun to me than the Kings as well as a "better" golf course.

Paul

Good to see that the Good Doctor occasionally got something right!

[Brian Phillips]

I just played the King's yesterday and it was wet and felt long as we received no run whatsoever.

However the two guys that had handicaps of 4 and 5 on of which was my partner both went round in 7 over and 8 over par on a course they had never seen before off the whites which is just under 6600 yards.

Underated..yes!  My playing partner loved the course and rates it much higher than Carnoustie which we both played two weeks ago.  It is a fun course to play.  I really enjoyed the Par 3's threes.

We have now played the following courses in the last 3 weeks:

The Eden (St. Andrews)
Kingsbarns
Carnoustie
Gullane No.1
Gleneagles

I hope to write a little report about them all together with my fellow students in the next few weeks with pictures hopefully.  Our regular 4 ball are all GCA fanatics but all would rank these courses differently.

Brian.

[Dan Grossman]

Thanks for the pictures Paul.  It brings back great memories
of my round there last summer.  I thought the Kings course
was fantastic and one of the most difficult courses that
we played on the trip.  (and we even played Carnoustie  )

It was playing long and wet and was very tight off the
tee.  The rough was high and wet.  If you missed a fairway,
it was very likely that you were going to make at least
6.  That fact coupled with not always knowing where the
fairway was exactly laid out, made for a difficult driving test
when I was there in August of 2001.  Echoing earlier
comments, I loved the stretch between 13-15.  I thought
this course was fantastic how it hugged the ground and the
bunkering was perfectly placed.    

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

I have to agree with Dan Grossman.  I enjoyed the stretch of 13-15.  What do you guys think of #2 and the Giant ridge to the green.  That may be one of the biggest I have ever played on a golf course thats not a links.

16,17 were a bit of a disappointment as well as the size of the 18th green.  Although I can't remember if the 18th green tied into a putting green.16 and 17 had a bit of a drainage issue when I visited but there are some very neat and deceptive holes on the Kings Course.

[Paul Richards]

It was my first trip to Scotland when I played the Kings, but in one of my more vivid memories, I found it strange that the first par five measured about 480 from the "championship" tee, yet it played as a 465-yard par 4 for the hotel guests from the "regular" tee.  

This seemed strange to me that the championship tee was basically the same length, but had an "extra shot" allowed.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

i am not trying to start a separate discusion but to compare the Kings Queens or anything inland to Preswick is lost on me. I see no common ground other than old, golf course and in Scotland. There is nothing at Gleneagles to bring the comparison to Preswick other than the above.  I like the Qweens best and the Kings would be a great couse at a similar resort in America too. But it suffers from being a short but good inland course next to the best links courses on earth. The choice between TOC, Carnoustee, Kingsbarns, Crail(balcomie) etc is no comparison to the Kings et al.

[Dan Grossman]

OK - Why does everyone think that Gleneagles Kings is
Short?  It is a 6800 yard golf course that is a par 71.  It
is NOT short.  It is a hell of a test of golf that played very long with extremely penal rough.

Second, while it is an inland golf course, it clearly has characteristics that are similar to links golf.  I have never played an inland golf course with that many blind shots.  I personally believe that Gleneagles embodies Scottish golf just as much as any of the links courses.  Clearly, the golf course was built with minimal ground movement.  Holes like #3 embody Scottish golf.  I was more impressed with Gleneagles than many of the courses I played on my trip (Montrose, Kingsbarns, Loch Lomond, Barassie, Glasgow Gailes, Panmure - to name a few).

[MikeClayton]

Dan
In all the Scottish Opens in the late eighties and early nineties the course seemed short because after the 11th the rest seemed all downhill and downwind -except for 17 which wasn't that long.
And apart from the massive par 4 4th the front wasn't too long either
And the weather was never too much to write home about so that didn't contribute to it playing short.
At the 1992 Scottish Open I wrote a story for the paper in Melbourne about Tom Weiskopf who was playing that week.He told me he gave up the tour in America because he got so bored with the golf courses and one of the reasons he was playing Gleneagles-apart from warming up for the real Open the next week-was that he loved all the quirky stuff that golf pros never got to play on the regular tour courses
That same year Peter O'Malley finished eagle,birdie,birdie,birdie,eagle to run over Monty and Faldo.

[DanG]

I didn't realize we were talking in terms of professionals.  By their standards, I guess it is short.  

But, from the back tees, it played longer (for me) than most of the links courses which were screaming fast.  In addition, it had a number of uphill approach shots which made the course play longer.

DFG

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