[A_Clay_Man]

Overpaid?
There are Lama that get $100 a person for toteing.

Menial wage?
 If the round is 5 hours and you give him fifty, thats a menial wage. At least from what I've seen Ten bucks an hour won't get you what it used to. Plus, lets not be so subjective that we forget that the caddie has to spend the five hours with you. The You, in question, may not be that wonderful to spend five hours with. But I'm sure most on this site don't fall into that category.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dave,
Your observation: "(caddies are way, way overpaid these days, given the menial task they perform -- they should get the cash equivalent of similar menial labor.  Some of these guys get paid a full day's worth of good pay for 4 hours of work.  I wish I was so lucky!)"  


MLK once said: "No labor is really menial unless you're not getting adequate wages". What makes it menial(labor) is the income, the wages."

Some caddies consider themselves as professionals and  conduct themselves accordingly. I would imagine they don't look at themselves as menials in any way, shape or form.

[Lou_Duran]

I was not brought-up playing golf, nor in a family where country club memberships and servants were part of normal living.  And while I appreciate the work of a good caddie (I can count all of them I've used in one hand), for the most part I prefer carrying my own bag or, occasionally, pulling a cart (did so at the Long Cove Club in Hilton Head recently and loved it).   Good caddies like I had at CPC and the River Course make the first time around more enjoyable and easier to score.  However, unless I am in a tournament situation, I prefer carrying my own bag.

Like with mandatory riding, I have strong objections to mandatory caddie programs.  Financial considerations are a factor (I have a higher use for $5m to $10m per year), but more important is that I prefer to play the game as it was intended- by my own wits.  Relying on another opinion, often as the primary, seems to run counter to the game and diminishes its requirements.  Add the coaching, alignment, and counseling that the professionals and national amateurs now get from their caddies/swing gurus, golf is more of a collaborative effort.

Encouraging caddie programs is a good thing if the intent is to give the golfer choices.  Anything that gets people off riding gets my enthusiastic support.  But playing a two and a half hour round late in the day with one or two friends, carrying your own bag, and enjoying uncrowded conditions is about as good as it gets.

Two favorite caddie stories:

I was assigned a 12 year-old boy at Muirfield Village for a late starting time in a tournament.  The boy had no knowledge of the game, and could barely keep up carrying my ultra-light bag.  We sent him forward to forecaddie on the left side of 9, and not only did I lose a ball that I thought would stay on the left side of the fairway, for a time my clubs and the caddie were no place to be found.  It seems that he was distracted by wildlife near a stream and he left my bag in knee high native flora while he pursued his quarry.  The long walk back to the tee and the ensuing double-bogey did nothing for my attitude, nor for those of the players behind me.  As for the boy, he was a distraction, but not the cause of my bad golf, so he was paid appropriately.

At CPC, my caddie was carrying doubles, and he set the tone early on.  In addition to presenting his credentials by telling me about his "name" clients, he explained the time objectives of the round, and the need to keep our pace.  On about the fourth hole, after replacing one of my divots, he turns around to me and says something to the effect "Look Lou, if you and I are going to get along all day long, you are going to have to stop making me chase your divots".  He went on to explain that he also had to take care of his other guy, and I needed to replace my own turf (at my home club we fill-in divots with sand, so I didn't know, and I also thought that perhaps the caddie union would file a grievance if I attempted to usurp any of his tasks).  Fortunately, this guy really knew the greens, so he was extremely helpful.  I personally enjoyed his directness, and didn't take offense to his comments.  He was compensated very well.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Lou

I'll volunteer to pick up all your future divots after that last post.  Superb!

Of course, you know that I was there at your "Lou!  You and I are going to get along together a lot better, IF...." CPC incident which at least partly inspired this thread.  I'm not sure if it was that round, or my second bite at the cherry a few weeks later when "your" caddie (I played with him both times) absolutely, completely mis-read a long downhill putt on the 10th(?), leaving whomever hit it (perfectl--at least as requested by the caddie) about 20 feet short and low.

One of our most respected (I won't call him "beloved" because he is a trained killer) figures on this site did the math for me once about how much it would cost to belong to CPC, and he noted that the fees probably weren't too bad, but if you wanted to play everyday with your wife (yeah, I know, for those of you not in domestic bliss that could sound like purgatory...) you'd have to add on another 30-50K for the caddie fees and gratuies.  Sure, those old geezers have the dosh, but is this what a "good caddie program" means?

Leading me to Dan K

In my desire to get page views (as that is how Ran pays us frequent posters, as you know.  Except for the old guard--TE Paul get's paid by the word, Pat Mucci by the degreee of righteous indignation, and Tommy N. by the picture caption....), I chose an overly provocative title.  It probably should have read:

"What constitutes a 'good caddies program'"?

But, if I had writen it as such, the thread would have died out long ago, and we would never have had the opportunity toi hear Bob H's Nchanga story..........

[Dave_Miller]

Lou:

I really don't care how well that caddie read the greens.  In my opinion he was flat out lazy and you were supposed to be impressed by who he caddied for.

Guess what - you're paying the fee and he should treat you the same as his so called big names.

Replacing divots has been part of the caddie culture and responsibilities even back when I was a caddie.

Hopefully you showed the young boy the error of his ways so that he didn't give up and become a hater of golf.

Best,
Dave

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Dave

Than "young boy" caddying for Lou was in about his mid 40's, which is the average age for CPC caddies, I would say.  Why should he hate golf if he can get $150-300/day tax free for walking out in the open air, giving lip to his "clients" and getting them to pick up all the divots?

Adam

You will be happy to know that when I played Tallamore I did not opt to fork out $100 for the "two-L llama."  Now if the one-L lama himself had been looping, and would promise me inner peace, well...................

[A_Clay_Man]

Rich- I wonder if you were in a position to golf CPC everyday of the year, or close enough not to matter, say 200+times/yr. Would you actually think that an additional 50K is gonna make one bit of difference in your life? And that 50k is some how wasted or not worth it?

I think it's a fraction of the joy value or the # of uff-da's to be had.

Plus, without the mandatory provision, the professional level of the CPC caddies will become equal to it's garish neighbor. Not to say that pro's don't miss read a putt or two now and then. They have good days and bad days.

[Bob_Huntley]

Adam:

There are some members there that cannot afford to play that number of times a year. There are also some others that can, but prefer not to fork out the money. I have seen a couple of members wait until late afternoon, when most of the caddies have long gone, and then drive down to the fourth tee and drive off from there. Frugality dies hard.

[Dave_Miller]

Lou:
 Hopefully you showed the young boy the error of his ways so that he didn't give up and become a hater of golf.

Best,
Dave

Rich:

Probably didn't make myself clear.
The young boy I was referring to was the 12 year old at Muirfield Village. Not the lazy mid 40's, be impressed with me I caddie for celebrities at CPC.

Hope Lou was able to point out the error of this youngsters ways and perhaps give him the proper lesson in responsibility and that he didn't walk away a hater of the game.

Best,
Dave

[Brian Phillips]

Before I had ever played golf in America this year I had never had a caddie or ever sat in a golf cart to play golf.

I used a golf cart at Sand Hills after a few rounds walking.  I loved it...!  However the carts were included in the weekend fee and I will never ever hire a cart again unless it is provided.

I had caddies at the following courses:

Pine Valley
Aronimink
Merion East

I had one of the greatest days of my life with the caddy at Pine Valley.  He is one of the funniest guys I have ever walked a golf course with.

The other two caddies at the other courses were not needed.  Although polite and did a good job...they were pretty boring after Rocky at PV.  The only place I will hire a caddy is maybe at TOC or if I ever get to play PV again and they can guarantee me Rocky!!

I have never used a caddy before this year and have never felt the need for it.  I always wonder about caddies reading your line..how the hell does he know how hard you are going to hit the thing to give you a line?

I had 24 putts at PV on the front nine and I blame myself for listening to Rocky and not knowing the course but we gelled well on the back nine and I only had 14 putts so it worked in the end....

Brian.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Dav e

Sorry for missing your point.  I must admit though, when I was 9 I'd probably be off by the river too......

[Lou Duran]

Dave-

I did have a nice talk during and after the round with the 12 year-old boy.  It seems that he was recruited by some older neighborhood kids because the caddie master needed warm bodies for that day.  My recollection is that he had little interest in golf, and less in an endeavor which required so much physical exertion for someone so young.  Hopefully, he has grown to appreciate the game.

Rich-

You managed a second round at CPC before your exile?  I didn't think that you were that impressed with the course (much too easy for you).  BTW, we never calculated our bets, but I am sure you were on the plus side.  So next time, at least a couple of pints are on me.  You replace my divots for me? Please, I am not worthy!

Adam and Bob-

While tending bar in college I found it rather odd that some of the wealthier people seem to have real difficulty parting with their money.  In fact, the best $$ night I ever had was a private affair for a large group of welfare department employees celebrating the conclusion of their bowling league and the upcoming Christmas holidays.  You couldn't guess how many society parties and bar mitzvahs I did where the tip jar was hardly worth counting (and I poured a very generous drink).  My work as a commercial real estate broker has confirmed that many rich folks are rich because of their strong attachment to their money (completely faithful to the maxim that a dollar in their pocket is far better than a dollar in someone else's).

For me, it is more than just spending the money.  In some ways it is like riding a cart.  Sure it is easier physically, but golf is hardly a physical sport except for the walking part.  I enjoy the rigor of walking 36 holes and carrying, even if my game suffers when I over-do-it.  When you are done, and the legs feel tired, and dinner tastes great, and the drinks have their effect, and the bed feels heavenly, it is a fantastic feeling.  In fact, I can't think of a better way to spend a late summer afternoon walking and carrying (or pulling a cart) at Penninsula or CPC in near solitude with a couple of friends like Mrssrs. Huntley and Goodale.  For me, adding three caddies to the mix detracts from the experience (though not sufficiently to forego such an opportunity).  I do understand why some golfers enjoy using caddies, and have no trouble playing in a mixed group (of walkers carrying, with caddies, with pull carts, or riding).

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick Mucci,

Belatedly, great call re Greg Powers.  Memphis State had a pretty solid program with guys like John Schlee and Lou Graham.  Tom's recollection of his girlfriend is not surprising.  That's the one thing I remember about Greg as well when he was an instructor at a golf camp I attended in 1974.  He was every sixteen year old's idol - great game and greater female companionship!

If I'm not mistaken he was involved in an automobile accident that thwarted his attempt to make a come-back on the senior tour a few years back.  

I'll check my copy of The History of Golf In Tennessee tonight for further info.

Regards,

Mike  

[Paul Richards]

One of the really neat things that happened while I was growing up as a caddie at Beverly CC in the early '80's was that the greatest movie of all time - "Caddyshack" - came out.

The most amazing thing about it was that our caddy-master said all the things Brian Doyle-Murray said in the movie!

Also, nearly every character in the movie was represented by a real-life Beverly member - at least in our eyes!

[SL_Solow]

As many of you know, I am from the Chicago area where the WGA and the Evans Scholar Program have allowed most private clubs to maintain healthy caddy programs consisting mostly of young men and women starting from the age of 11 (sometimes younger) and usually ending at the time they enter the work force.  I concur with those who suggest that this is an important way to introduce young people to the game we love.  It is particularly important because it introduces many who otherwise could not afford the game and opens up horizons by exposing them to people  (members) who they might never meet.  At my Dad's club I saw members "adopting" caddies and helping them finish their educations and/or finding them first jobs.  We try to do the same at our club along with endowing a scholarship program for employees which is in addition to the Evans program.  From a player's point of view, having a caddy is a more pleasurable way to play.  You are free to concentrate on the game and you have a "teammate" to share your triumphs and to commiserate over your misfortunes.  All in all, a proper caddy program is a wonderful thing.  Finally, you can be surprised by the people you meet.  Some time ago my Dad had a nice young man who was his regular caddy who measured about 6'4" and weighed about 210.  Dad asked him if he played basketball and he replied no but that he played baseball.  Dad asked if he was any good and he said he was going to be drafted first.  Dad thought it was hyperbole but as fate would have it, the teenage caddy was the young Cliff Floyd currently of the Red Sox, late of the Marlins and Expos and former first round draft choice.  I suspect Cliff can afford caddies for most anything but he was a nice young man and has never been any trouble on any of the teams he has been associated with in baseball.  Maybe his caddy experience had something to do with it!

[TEPaul]

About thirty years ago there was a liberal democratic Federal judge in the Philly area who got it in his head that for some reason the civil rights of the institutionally insane where somehow being violated simply by being institutionalized!

So he arranged to let all of them out of the mental asylums and into decent society (where I live). He even tried to figure out how to provide for them somehow on the outside but naturally, at first, that was quite a fiasco.

But in the end it all worked out quite well because about 99% of the insitutionally insane in the Philly area ended up over at Gulph Mills caddying!

There's even a secondary benefit to this as well. We have an inordinate amount of older members at GMGC who are themselves extremely good candidates to be institutionalized (if it wasn't for that creative Federal judge) and they actually say going out with some of our caddies makes them feel far more stable about themselves than they ordinarily would!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Hendren,

I have to question your values.

"he was every sixteen year olds idol, great golf game and great female companionship"

I don't know about you, but everybody that I know over the age of sixteen, including myself, still find that description worth idolizing, in fact, it seems like an eternal pursuit.

What happened to you when you turned 17  

[Lou Duran]

TEP-

Funny, funny story.  It reminds me of one told by a member of Lakewood CC in Dallas where the advanced age of the membership was a concern several years ago.  Apparently, in one year they lost four gentlemen to heart attacks at the club- not on the course, but in the card room!  Erratic behavior such as an eldely member who could no longer drive being picked up by his elderly wife mistook the car (and the woman) and scared some poor old lady to death thinking that she was being car-jacked.

BTW, there was a prominent NY psychiatrist by the name of Thomas Zazas (sp) in the late 70s who was big in the deinstitutionalization movement.  Some people believe that the homeless phenomenom was the result of this convenient philosophy.  Perhaps the Gulph Mills model out to be studied systemically, as it could alleviate two problems: homelessness and the shortage of caddies.

Tom, I understand that you are a prominent member at GM.  If I am not mistaken, I think that you are also a proponent of quirkiness in golf.  Any connection with what you have just told us about the mental state of the membership there?

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick,

At the tender age of 44, I am NLC - No Longer Competitive - both at golf and with the women!

Greg Powers was a product of Stamford, CT.  He was a journeyman pro, making 157 cuts with one second, three thirds, fourteen top tens and $386,086 in career earnings.  At the 1976 Doral Open he entered the third found only two shots off the lead.  Paired with Nicklaus and Weiskopf he made ten on the first hole.


He is in fact involved with PGA Tour Radio and survived a near fatal auto accident in Nashville in 1992.  He lives in Alpharetta, GA.  

This from The History of Tennessee Golf - "Powers and his predecessor, J. C. Goosie, cut a wide path in the Tennessee golf annals.  Both were handsome, gregarious, and full of life.  Golfers on the PGA Tour and in Tennessee will be telling of the escapades (wine, women, song and gambling) of Goosie and Powers long after they are gone."

Regards,

Mike

[Tim Weiman]

Rich Goodale:

My favorite caddy experience might have come at Lahinch one day when a friend and I took a chance at just stoping by with no tee time. We got lucky. The starter said if we could be on the tee in two minutes we could play. No time for any formalities like arranging for caddies, just fork over the green fees and play away. Perfect.

We did, however, get fixed up with two Americans on their first trip to Ireland who had two teenage locals for caddies. One of these kids was actually a nice young fellow, but the other guy set an all time record for rudeness.

It was pretty clear he didn't think very much of his American customer and went the entire round without the slightest hint of courtesy. The funny thing was that the American visitor seemed clueless as if he didn't know the difference between a decent caddy and one who was absolutely horrible. As the round wore on, this only made the Irish kid more ornery. He seemed to delight in insulting the American.

For some reason, this began to strike me as rather funny making it difficult to focus on playing my own game. Anyway, when we made it to the 16th tee, I grabbed the kid and whispered: "is this your first time caddying?" Before he could punch me in the nose his friend realized I was joking and started laughing. "Look", the ornery guy said, "these people are brutal".

I didn't have much of a scorecard, but I did have a good laugh.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Tim

Good story, but I prefer those which have the gowfer rather than the caddie in ascendancy.  One of my best friends used to have his bidie-in caddy (Huntley, Kelly, et. al.--I think that while the "ie" spelling is correct for the noun, is not the "y'" variant proper for the verb?) for him in minor tournamnets, and his advice to her before every round was short and sweet:

"Hand me my driver on the tee, my putter when I am on the green and keep your tits out of the way!"

They are still together.......

[Paul Richards]

Rich:

Maybe you could learn from the motto on Beverly's scorecard:

"Treat your caddie as you would your son or daughter."

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Paul

If my good friend referred to in my previous post took your advice in its inverse, i.e. "Treat your son or your daughter as you would treat your caddie" he would be in jail right now........

[A_Clay_Man]

Here's one of ascendancy for you Rich:
It was the first round of the Caloway and Merril Lynch was a huge sponsor. They had V.P's from all parts of the world. I was lucky to have a nice american working in London who admittedly was not a golfer. We started the first of the 3 day event at Old Del Monte and on the #1 handicap par 4 seventh this guy was in the right front bunker at the inside angle where the green wraps towards the back of the green. He jokingly said " I should probably use my putter". Implying his sand game was less than up to it. I looked at his lie and his line to the back left flag and it came over me that while he was joking, it really was the correct play. He was fortunate to be in the only spot in the entire bunker where the sand was even with the lip, and putting was doable. I advised him to pretend he was hitting an 80 foot gave him a line ten feet left and he struck it. It rolled up the severe incline to stop ten feet from the hole and then he sank the par. Truely amazing for a self-professed 4 time a year swinger. Needless to say, I could do no wrong, in his eyes, the rest of the three days. Too bad for me it was downhill from there.
And for the otherside of the coin my favorite story was from a CPC caddie, who, in his seventies is still spry and a good golfer. He was matched one day with some baseball player who's attitude exemplified that his feces weren't maloderous but failed to recognize that his flatulence was all telling. Anyway on the first tee the ball palyer turned to Marty and said, "i don't want anything out of you but yardage". With that they went on to play the front and on the ninth the guy had this birdie putt, he turned to Marty and said "what do you think". Well, Marty started to stalk the putt, looked at it from every angled, went up to him and said "22 feet". The guy says "no, no how much break?" marty gave him a read that would ensure his ball rolling all the way off the front, which it did.

[Paul Richards]

Rich:

Cute!

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