[TEPaul]

Interesting thread Rich! And most interesting responses! Not exactly what I would have expected!

I love to walk and carry my bag, mostly only when alone though! I've certainly gotten into using carts too often, though, and can't say I really agree with their prevalence in the old US of A!

But caddies I hope never go out of existence or even out of real availability!

Caddies and the player and golf can be something unique and traditional about the game and I hope it never fades. Some of the caddie stories I know, both by them and about them are some of the best in all of golf!

And in a tournament context, particularly a successful tournament context, there's almost nothing in sport like it!

A player and his caddie, often his friend, his alter ego, whatever, is one of the most remarkable symbioses in all of sport!

[Paul Richards]

Tom:

Well said.  

I hope the tradition of the caddie continues on and on!

[Forced Carry]

When it comes to caddies, my grandfather said it best I believe: "If the cranberry sauce is fit for eating, which it is, then someone has to carry it out to the table."

But don't think my grandfather was just sitting around getting fat off the hog. Oh no, thanks to my grandmother, he was the original "Forced Carry"--"Pa, can you hold my purse while I try on these dresses?"

[archie struthers]

Caddies, who needs them???  

No one, given the evolution of the cart and new generation of golfer.

But, who wants or appreciates them is a totally more appropriate question. I, for one would probably never been exposed to golf if my older friends hadn't been working at Woodcrest CC, just a short bike ride from my house.

I know that I would have never gotten to know Pine Valley as intimately as I have been privledged to do, or Seminole, Indian Creek, or other great golf courses that most people just dream of playing.

More importantly, it paid my way thru college, taught me how to play pinochle and gin rummy, and taught me some great lessons on human nature.

In this day and age, wouldn't it be wonderful if, at the very least, we speeded up play by having a forecaddie to help those golfers most challenged. Funny how very few ex-caddies I know take more than 3 1/2 hours to play a golf course, walking!!!!!!!!!!!!, no matter what their handicap.
I for one, don't need one, but I sure love them!!!

[David Wigler]

Bias admission - I caddied as a kid growing up.

I will always take a caddie if available and always walk if there is no caddie available and I am allowed.

A suggestion for the master/servant point - Get your caddie involved in your round.  I like to gamble on the golf course.  I could not care less about how much is won or lost.  What is important is which way the money goes.  I always let my caddie know what we are playing for and what their take will be if we win.  We are teammates.  Their job is to help me and keep my head on during the round (No easy task).  My job is to execute the shots.  It works really well.

As anyone who has played with me can attest, I enjoy talking during a round of golf.  A golf cart does not offer the opportunity to really enjoy the company of the people you are playing with.  Walking is integral to the relationship aspect of golf.  A caddie gives me one more person to converse with during a round.  Do I prefer professional caddies by a dramatic amount to kids working their way through school – No.  Do I prefer a caddie to a golf cart - Hell Yes!

[Bob_Huntley]

Dave Schmidt:

You are not by chance related in some way to H.L.Mencken?

David Wigler:

Now I know why you never seem to have a bad lie, your gambling partner (i.e. caddy) gets some of the action.

[mark studer]

I too caddied and learned the game as a 12 year old through caddying and playing with my uncle.(My dad never played)  We were taught to only give information when asked and to learn the  rules of the game.  I learned at an early age not to trust everyone....yes some players cheated!....if they cheat at golf they will cheat, period.  Thank goodness cheating was the exception by a  LONG shot but  it was a reality of life. Huge benefit of caddying for youths today--Evans scholarships.  Their alumni group(past caddies who have received a free education) contribute over 1 million dollars each year to support the current class of scholarship recipients. WOW!

[Dave_Miller]

Rich et al:

Caddies are one of the great traditions of the game.  I can recall reading stories about the early days of golf where caddies actually made a tee to place the ball by mounding the dirt on the teeing area.

Eventually this led to the advent of wooden tees as we know them today.

While I usually carry my bag when playing alone, or going out for a few holes late in the day, I too have a bias.  I caddied as a kid.  It was a great summer job when in high school.

I think a caddie adds a lot to a round.  

I will say my preference is for the high school and college kids as opposed to the older full time caddies.  In my opinion this gives a way to pass the traditions to a new generation of golfers and to hopefully have a little influence on teaching these youngsters that the game is terrific, to respect it and to value the history of this great game.

I also feel it speeds play as opposed to using carts, or even carrying your own bag.  When there are two caddies in a foursome and one is ahead forecaddying it helps greatly in spotting balls.

From a selfish standpoint I have been fortunate to have my youngest son caddie for me the last several years.  Less now that he in college but still frequently in the summer.

Not only is this a way to spend time with your children but it can teach them a lot about the game and hopefully pass along the traditions and the respect for the game and maybe they will even learn to play the game.  

The fact that my son is very good player only adds to the experience.  While I will never hit the shots he hits or play at that level it certainly helps when discussing shots and reading putts, etc.

To me a club that has a good caddie program is to be valued.

I consider myself fortunate to be a member of two clubs that cherish and promote their caddie programs and work hard to keep them.

Fairways and Greens,

Dave  

[MainelyJack]

Dave Schmidt pretty much nailed it for my thoughts on the matter. I also have the bias of having been a caddy and a caddy master in my teens. I learned a lot about the game by caddying, not just the "manners and courtesy" of golf, but I caddied for a lot of good players and I learned by watching and listening. I also learned a bit about the "gamesmanship" of golf, both in the wagering and in bargaining for stokes. All have come in helpful over the decades.

Alas, I no longer have the option of a caddy at my home course as they no longer exist, but every so often a friend will invite me to play at a course where they are available. If the caddy is no more than a strong back, it is money wasted, but most caddys, I find, know the game, the course and can be helpful.

Not far from where I live is the oldest resort course in the United States. Poland Springs. (yes, the one with the water sales) In its heyday, Poland Springs Resort required all players to take caddys. They ran a Caddy Camp from the time school was out until the summer ended. The caddys came from all over the country and were taught how to caddy and how to play the game. Two Bates College coaches were in charge of the camp. Each caddy had a uniform which was a bright yellow top with the logo on the front and his munber on the back and dark green shorts. Every now and then when I run into people while wintering in AZ, I am asked if I ever heard of Poland Spring and it's Caddy Camp. I will then be told that the guy sent his son there and it was one of the best things he ever did for him. I wonder if programs like this exist anymore.

I also had the experience of playing Mid-Ocean, Bermuda several years ago in a tournament and was fortunate enough to draw one of their top caddies. Trust me, it made a great difference as he not only fitted my game to the course, but made me change my approach to their greens from what i was used to here in the states.

Unfortunately too many of the new courses being built, in Maine at least, are cart only because of the long distances between tees. You lose the opportunity to walk as well as have caddies, and that is a flaw in proper design as far as I am concerned.

A good thread. A worthy topic.

[Dave_Miller]

Jack:

Oyster Harbors on Cape Cod used to run a caddie camp but alas I believe it is long gone now.

I believe Sankaty Head on Nantucket still runs a caddie camp.  Maybe someone who is more familiar with Sankaty can fill us in.

Best,
Dave

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Just in case anybody wants to accuse me of being a cartball fanatic or insensitive to the needs and opportunities of our nation's youth, please let me reiterate that:

1.  I am not comparing caddy programs to cart programs, just carrying (or pulling) your own bag vs. havin somebody else do it.
2.  I am very much in favor of caddy programs IF they are limited to local youths and include education as well as employment in the "curriculum."
3.  If 2. above were followed to the letter, I might even drop my objection to "mandatory" programs

[MainelyJack]

Dave M - You are right. Found a web site which reported that Sankaty Head Golf Club is the last course in NE to have a real caddy camp. Those that can afford to live on Nantucket and belong are apparently very generous with their support of the effort. Apparently they have around 45 caddies who live there during the summer.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I concure with all that has been said about the education caddy provides on both golf and human nature.

I haven't taken all that many caddies over the years but the few times I have, it has added to the experience. At Cypress Point I actually carried my own bag, but father and brother's caddy was a major asset. I'll never forget pushing my approach up into the dune on #8 and having the caddy instruct me to aim 20 feet to the right of the hole. What the hell is he talking about, I tapped in for an easy par. Same deal at Whistling Straits, I carried my own bag, but the caddies in our group had to have saved me ten strokes on a very difficult day.

Or the young Dominican kid - who didn't speak English - at Casa de Campo. He would take out my 5-iron stand behind the hole and mark the line. Not only did he not speak English, I don't think he played golf either because he was always wrong. But he was a great companion, he would periodically disappear and I would find him climbing a tree to pick the 'fruit of the Dominican.' One of the craziest things I've seen in a golf.

While in college, a friend and I had the pleasure of having Ken Venturi's caddy at Congressional - Ward. We started our round on the 10th hole and a group of fat cats were teeing off in front of us, when one especially fat cat dubbed his drive into the stream fronting the tee. He turns to our elderly caddy and says "Boy go down and fetch my ball out the creek." He dropped our bags and went running into the creek. A very disturbing start to the round, but what followed was a wonderful eighteen holes with history. I've had young caddies (WFoot), old caddies (Oakmont), good caddies (Shinnecock)  and not so good caddies (Casa de Campo) - but it has almost always added to the experience.

Speaking of bad caddies, I personally had to be one of the worst. I was from the era when caddies kept there mouth shut, unless advice was requested. Problem was I couldn't keep my mouth shut and when asked for advice I didn't know crap. My first year, I must have been about 11 or 12, the NCAA Championship came to Ohio State. It seems odd now, but every competitor took a caddy. The top players were matched with top caddies, all except my unlucky player, a first team All-American out of Memphis State. I could barely lug his big bag around for eighteen holes, thankfully the strap broke and he switched to his lighter Sunday bag. It was an awesome experience, we played three rounds with the favorite, Lanny Wadkins (who finished second to John Mahaffey). My golfer had the low round of the tourney - a 67 and also won the long drive contest. Even though I sucked and my man was playing for a lot, he couldn't have been kinder. That same year I saved enough money to buy a new set of clubs - the same clubs I use to this day.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

That wouldn't have been Greg Powers, would it ?

Rich Goodale,

I think you have to differentiate between CADDIES, and bag toters.

CADDIES are great.

They take an interest in your game, they want to help you in overcoming the obstacles the course presents, and they want to be a contributing factor in having you play better, having you score better.  Good CADDIES are positive, not negative.
They understand your personality and your game after a few holes.

Some of the best company that I have ever had, has been a CADDY in a competitive setting.

One CADDY at NGLA during the Singles Tournament went above and beyond in his efforts to help me win.

In the morning round of the Championship flight, as I was riding from the range, back to the first tee, my bag fell off of the cart, snapping off the head of my biggest big bertha driver
Billy, the caddy master lent me a driver with an AJ Tech shaft that I never hit higher then 10 feet off the ground.  
I was lucky enough to win my morining match, and had time to have lunch before the start of my afternoon match against an opponent who was a far better player than I was.  
In the interim, my caddy called all his friends, found one with a biggest big bertha driver with my specs, drove out of his way, picked it up and brought it back for me to use.  
I was lucky enough to win my afternoon match, primarily because my caddy cared enough, and made an extra-ordinary effort to assist his player, in a true team spirit effort.  

From the moment we met at the first tee, we connected, and irrespective of the outcome of each match, we had a good time, and enjoyed each others company.

I could recount story after story of wonderful golf experiences that were made possible by the efforts and companionship of a CADDY.

As TEPaul says, in competition, they become your partner in your duel against the golf course and/or your opponent.

Unfortunately, there are some "bag toter" stories that I'd like to forget, of rounds made unenjoyable by the presence and actions of an individual who didn't care about anything except payday.

Given the alternatives, I opt for taking a caddy who gets into your game, the golf course, and the competition.

GCGC is fortunate to have a very good CADDY corps, as does NGLA in season.  I suspect that FH will have the same.
It makes a difference.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Pat
It was, I think he has a gig on the radio. I thought he was from the South, but he later told me he was from Connecticut. I'm not sure how ended up in Memphis, although I do remember his girl friend like it was yesterday - she was definitely from the South. Perhaps he was a big Elvis fan.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

He was from Connecticut, his father was in the textile business, which is how I met and played with him, through a textile client of mine.  I think my textile client may have backed him on tour initially. He definitely could hit it.

I'm not sure, but I think he had raw talent that hadn't fully developed and some of the college golf powerhouses passed on him for scholarship purposes, with Memphis State getting his attention or vice versus.  Memphis State may have also been the result of a textile connection as well.  It was so long ago that my recollection is cloudy at best.

He later went on the PGA tour and had spotty success.

I've lost track of him now, but used to scan the golf tournaments looking for his name.  When I met him he was a nice, handsome, athletic young man, with great talent and power.  But, the PGA Tour is a tough place to make a living.
I hope all is well with him.

The golf world seems smaller all the time.
Never met his southern girlfriend but it seems she left a lasting impression on you  

[Rick Shefchik]

Rich --
You must have known this topic would inspire a lot of great stories and challenge your premise. The thing is, many of your points are correct, depending on who the caddie is and what you expect or want him to do for you

Like Dave Schmidt, I converted to the pull-cart this year because of knee and shoulder troubles, but I'd still rather have a kid toting my bag for me. I don't like pulling my bag up a hill, and I don't like it when I park the pull-cart carelessly on a side-hill and it tips over.

Aside from a strong back, your caddy POTENTIALLY provides you with companionship and course knowledge. The nice thing about a caddy is that he can either offer help or shut up as situation dictates. A cart is just a cart.

Having a kid carry your bag lets you show the good side of golf to an impressionable mind; it keeps the kid out of the fast-food industry; and it keeps you from saying things you probably shouldn't say, but would have if he or she weren't around.

[Dan Kelly]

There is considerable support on this site that "good caddy programs" are one of the more desireable aspects of any golfing club.  I tend to disagree.  Here are my reasons:

Rich --

Not having read much of this thread, I may be off-track here, but...

Seems to me, having read your reasons, that almost all of your reasons are reasons YOU don't want to have a caddy -- not reasons why a golf club shouldn't have a "good caddy program."

This publinxer wonders: Don't clubs with "good caddy programs" allow you to carry your own bag, if that's your preference? That'd be part of my definition of "good."

[Ken_Cotner]

Well, with all the caddy stories on here, I'll go ahead and tell my favorite (out of a VERY limited universe).

In an annual four-ball grudge match held every New Year's Day, one of our opponents had his 9 year-old son caddy for him.  His first shot of the day was pulled badly into some ugly mess.  Immediately his son shouted, "Dad, why did you hit it over THERE!?"

The match was over right then and there, and we haven't lost since that day four years ago.  All we do at the key moment in the match is repeat the sage advice of that wonderful caddy.

Now my 9 year-old daughter wants to caddy for me, but insists on negotiating the number of clubs in my bag and the fee.  I'm sending her to mediate the Mucci/Paul debates -- she'll break them both!

And for the record, I have enjoyed my few caddy experiences, but do struggle with the "master/servant" thing.  But that's my problem, not the caddy system's...

KC

[Bob_Huntley]

At the risk of repeating the story my favorite happened almost forty years ago at the Nchanga Golf Club in then Northern Rhodesia, now Zambia.

Each year we would have a Scotch foursome event where those members liberal enough to do so, would partner with their regular caddie in a Scotch Foursome event.

One member, who shall be nameless, was an irascible Afrikaaner, carrying with him his unfortunate racial biases. How he acquiesced to playing in the event I had no idea.His caddie, a decent chap, put up with his crap for years without a peep. The pay was good.

Play went off without incident until our fourth hole. A par 5 of a little over 500 yards it crossed the Nchanga Stream twice on the way to the hole. The member teed off and hit it into the water in which all sorts of aggressive aquatic creatures lived.  The member got hot under the collar and instructed the caddie to hit the next shot safely so that he would have a chance to place the next shot on the green. Joseph, the caddie, with an insoucient swing, promptly hit the ball into the stream in front of him. The member was by now steaming. He laced the ball down the fairway almost to the edge of the stream guarding the green. Now it was Joseph's turn to play. Once more the ball ended up in the water.

By this time the member was apoplectic and turned to the caddie and shouted "Why the f**k don't you throw the effing bag in as well you bloody kaffir." The word Kaffir is a pejorative in Southern Africa that today, if used, can get you jail time. In those days it was used almost as a figure of speech. To the astonishment of all and to the absolute delight of the other caddies, Joseph hauled the bag off the ground and heaved it into the stream. With that he ran off leaving his player just about prostrate.

We never saw the member play again.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ken Cotner,

Just look at it as though you're retaining an independent contractor on an hourly or fixed project fee schedule.

Most, hire plumbers, electricians, computer consultants, and lawyers in the same way.

There is no reason that you can't hire a golf and golf course consultant for a few hours a day.

View it in a positive professional mode, not one of servitude.

[Jim_Kennedy]

There are many views on this subject but I was wondering if everyone here agrees that it should be spelled Caddie? Caddy seems to be a variant use but does mean "a container for carrying tea".  

[Bob_Huntley]

Jim:

You are correct, it is a variant. but not wrong. The plural is always caddies.

Tea caddy is the container.

[Paul Turner]

Dan

No, at most times (other than late afternoons) at private clubs, if you want to walk you have to take a caddie!  I find this pretty bizarre.

I guess the reasoning is that the caddies would die out if people were allowed to carry their own bags; but the real culprit are those damn buggies.

[Ken_Cotner]

Ken Cotner,

Just look at it as though you're retaining an independent contractor on an hourly or fixed project fee schedule.

Most, hire plumbers, electricians, computer consultants, and lawyers in the same way.

There is no reason that you can't hire a golf and golf course consultant for a few hours a day.

View it in a positive professional mode, not one of servitude.

Pat, of course you're right (did I just say that -- someone revive TomP!).  Now that I have some age on me, I would feel more secure about using a caddy(ie).  Too bad the South is almost devoid of them.

Ken

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