[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

There is considerable support on this site that "good caddy programs" are one of the more desireable aspects of any golfing club.  I tend to disagree.  Here are my reasons:

1.  Using a caddy takes away some of the satisfiaction of the "you vs. the course" aspect of golf
2.  Using a caddy, particularly when playing a course for the first time, takes away from the enjoyment of finding out for yourself what the course is like and learning from your own mistakes (and discoveries!).
3.  Caddies clutter up the scenery.  Watching a 2-4 ball of firends walking together down a fairway is one of the beautiful sights of golf.  Having from 2-4 other people on the landscape makes it look busy and unnatural, at least for me.
4.  Using a caddy allows golfers who are not relatively physically fit to better compete with those who are.
5.  Caddies can make you sloppy in your thinking.  Estimating yardage, windage and breaks and speeds on putts requires practice, and if you leave those elements to others you may not keep as sharp as you should in those areas.
6.  Caddies cut down on your ability to interact with your friends when playing golf.  To me no matter how knowledgeable and charming they may be, they are often like gatecrashers at a party.
7.  Regardless of how good the caddies are or how strong their patter and sense of self-esteem is, it is still a master/servant relationship that I am not completely comfortable with--at least while playing a game.

Now for a few caveats, before the bickbats begin to fly:

1.  I am all for junior caddy programs--i.e. teenagers who want to earn a bit of money, meet some (hopefully) interesting people, and maybe get to play a course that they wouldn't otherwise be able to.  Sure this limits most caddy programs to the summer months, but so what?
2.  I fully support the right of any player who wishes to use a caddy to do so, although I would prefer that player to do otherwise if he or she were playing with me.  Why?  I just think it is more sociable.
3.  In tournament situations I can (sometimes) see more of a need for caddies, and yet...........

........I would really love to see the pros required to carry their own bags, particularly at any British Open.  It would better sort out the golfers from the robots.  And yes, Tiger would still win.......

Final notes of disclosure:

1.  I have used caddies, both voluntarily and involuntarily, in about 1-2% of the rounds I have played in my life.  None of those experiences has been negative.  Few, however, have been memorable.
2.  I have caddied, firstly as a teenager for money and more recently (most recently this summer) to give some help to friends playing in tournaments.

Those of you who disagree, where am I going wrong?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Local knowledge is a good thing. Caddies have enhanced my enjoyment of a number of golf courses that I've only played once and may never play again. Courses that require some local knowledge.

[Paul Turner]

Rich

I'd prefer to not have a caddy, for most of the reasons you list.  It's not a big deal, but I guess it's just what I've been used to.

[Paul Richards]

Whenever confronted with the choice of a caddie or a cart - give me a caddy.

Whenver I play a course that I am unfamiliar with - give me a caddy.

Whenever I play a course in the British Isles - give me a caddy.

Whenever I play my home course - give me a  caddy.


-------------

In conclusion, give me a caddy.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I'm biased. I was a caddy as a kid; that is how I was introduced to the game. I suspect the death of the caddy at the hands of the cart has effected the game in America and in turn golf architecture.

[Andy Hodson]

Here are my thoughts to refute Rich's well reasoned, yet faulty, argument against caddies, point by point:

1. (Caddy takes away you vs. course satisfaction). It still is you vs. the course. Its just now more of a collaborative effort, but only if you want it to be. A good caddy will only offer advice when asked. I also feel that we humans succeed more often as a team than as an individual.

2. (Caddy takes away enjoyment of discovering the course when playing for first time). In any instance of being somewhere or meeting someone for the first time, it is important to have an entre, or introduction. This doesn't rob the discovery process, but rather helps to enable us to more fully enjoy the process. Any first time visitor to my house, I will show the entire lay of the land so they feel more comfortable and can enjoy themselves more fully. I believe a caddy performs this function for a first time player.

3. (Caddies clutter the scenery). Hard to argue with this point. Harder yet to agree with it. Next point.

4. (Caddy helps the less physically fit). More importantly, a caddy can help the less mentally fit. I'd be more worried about that in an opponent.

5. (Caddy can enable sloppiness in thinking). Again, I think a good caddy helps us think more clearly, urging us to shrug off bad holes, pointing out features we may have missed, reminding us of places we don't want to be, or that par is a good score, etc.

6. (Caddies cut down on comraderie). Quite possibly, they enable us more time to chat with our playing companions instead of spending time raking bunkers, tending flagsticks, etc. Again, a good caddy won't speak until spoken to.

7. (Master/servant relationship).  Maybe it helps to think of them as more of a co-worker, or teammate, striving toward a common goal.

Although I don't use a caddy often, everytime I have (including a memorable round at Seminole with a double bagger who hit empty on the gas tank about the 14th hole), it makes for a much more enjoyable time on the course. And I would never pass up the chance to take one in the future.

Caddies make the game of golf so much richer. Let's encourage more use of them.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Rich,
  
1. It's always "you vs. the course" whether or not a caddie is present.
2. You will learn from your mistakes and discoveries with a caddie or without. He may offer the preferred line of play, you still choose what's best for you.
3. Caddies I've used stay neatly away from the group. Usually one or two of them are yards ahead anyway. It sure looks better to see caddies with golfers than carts.
4. Meaningless as it relates to golf as the use of caddies is upheld by endless years of tradition and inclusion in the rules with a status nearly as important as the player.
5. Only if you are content to take no part in your game plan.
6. See the first sentence of #2
7. It is an employer/temporary employee relationship not master/servant. It is a misguided sentiment to perceive the caddie as something other than he/she is, a working person.

[Tom Doak]

Rich,

I'm perfectly comfortable carrying my own clubs and guessing the yardages.

But supporting a caddie program is supporting the future of golf.  It widens the game to other social circles, and provides a good job in a great game in the outdoors.  And I am all for that.

[Paul_Turner]

In the UK, apart from the tourist destinations, Caddies are practically non-existent, even at Private clubs.  Sometimes there are a few youngsters looking for a bag, but very few organised Caddy schemes.  I think this maybe due to golf becoming a more middle/working class game over the past few decades.

If I ran my own private club, I'd always give the option to members to carry their own bag.

[Steve Lang]

I too caddied as a teenager for some money and have more recently offered to give some help to friends playing in tournaments.  It gave me a chance to see some hacks and good golfers with my dad, but in the end, the most I seem to remember was hearing some interesting ways to curse and finding balls in odd places.

I've never paid for a caddy, but I've had the advice of two at TOC, when they got bored helping their players find balls in the gorse and who might have listened to their advice, but couldn't execute.  Their advice to me was invaluable to my shooting a first-time 77 there.

So, while I agree with some of the facets of Rich's 7 reasons, I think there needs to be some division of "situation" in judging their value.  Perhaps the home and away situations are all that's necessary for discussion.

Comparisons____________

Home Case
1. I know the distances, judge the wind and what's working, don't need any advice.  
2.  Just get me out, I'll find a way to enjoy.
3.  Pace of play most important, if caddies speed things up I'm for it, but I can walk 18 easily in 3 hours if given opportunity.
4.  No doubt.  But Casey Martin issue here?   I'm all for a Hoofer's Open, but in the minority when I suggest. I also have a 3.5 lb bag and carry 10-12 clubs & only 4 balls, unless I'm riding.
5. Perceptive skills and thinking versus raw experience and execution?  I think this general area creates a lot of tension and likely destroys the joys of having a caddy.. when they loose credibility or become scapegoat, and then just mule.
6. Gatecrashers if they invade your personal space, good rumor mongers too!
7.  Master/servant???  Not at home, perhaps hard eye-advisor-bunker raker-pin handler/player relationship.

Away Case
1 & 2. If I'm only there once I'm not loosing any satisfaction from getting some local knowledge. I still have to execute.  But do I want to pay?  Probably not, I'm cheap.
3.  I kinda liked the extra crowd at TOC, but then I don't play there everyday.  Wife didn't.
4.  No issue, but there for enjoyment.
5.  First timing, one doesn't often know what to think.. So why not go for it?  If the score is important for keepsake... one can't afford any sloopiness of thought of knowledge, casue there might not be a second chance.
6. Gatecrashers can be fun too!  Take a risk, get some reward can go too far though if unrestrained.  Coin toss there.  
7.  Master/servant??? Why not advisor/employer or coach/player relationship from get-go?

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Good points all.

Tom MacW

For me, having a caddy at those "once in a lifetime" courses has been (on reflection) more of a distraction than a revelation.  But, to each his or her own.

Paul T/Andy H/Paul R/Jim K/Steve L

Part of it obviously is what you are used to, and preference.  Like Paul, I'm used to 2-4 guys hoicking (or pulling on a trolley) their own sticks.  Andy's and Steve's rebuttals are all good.  It gets down to preference.

Tom Doak

As long as a "caddie program" includes (and perhaps even favors) the entry level/school age person and does not get to be some sort of closed-shop haven for 40-somethings who want their office to be in the fresh air and are tired of doing brain surgery for a living I'm all for it.

On reflection

Maybe my beef is more with the mandatory caddy rule than the concept of the caddy.  In my ideal club I would mostly carry my own bag, but would want the option of having a young kid or some old geezer like Adam Clayman join me if I felt like it--as long as I also have the option of just saying "no."

Still thinking about it......

[Jim_Kennedy]

Rich,
It is preferable to have a caddie that is no older than eight years. They probably can't count higher than ten.  

[Paul Richards]

As someone who grew up caddying, I found it to be one of the best jobs available to a young person.  Not only do you get paid to do a job outdoors, but you also meet important people and can make great connections.

I try to help "the next guy" as I was helped, so I will always support a good caddie program.

[Bob_Huntley]

I have never caddied for money, have done so once or twice for friends in tournaments. Alll in all, a thankless task.

I will agree with Rich on one thing, the more I see of cadddies at prestigious clubs, the more I see  the inmates taking over the asylum. When one has a lightweight bag that one carries oneself and it is substituted  for one of the caddies choice, I see red. I generally unload all superfluous gear such as umbrellas and rain suits to make the load lighter. At Gullane, the looper allocated to me was a chain smoker, I offered him an extra ten quid not to smoke during the round, he declined. I got another carrier.

I will disagree with Rich on forsaking a caddy for the first time around a quirky course. To play TOC blind the first time would be insane. Maybe that's why our Dornoch resident has such weird ideas from time to time.

[GPazin]

I've never really understood why caddies are allowed to give advice. If the rules are such that you can't ask an opponent fairly innocuous questions, why allow someone carrying your bag to provide answers? Is golf a team sport? Anyone know the history of this? Is it covered in one of those history/logic of the rules books?

My own preference: My only experience with a caddy was at Lehigh. It was really a nice change to have someone lugging my clubs while I strolled around, & it certainly helped when one went ahead to spot tee shots - I don't always hit the fairway! But I felt somewhat uncomfortable with someone taking the club out of my hand when I tried to clean it, or taking the rake out of my hand when I tried to use it. I'd say I generally would prefer a caddy, but I would make it clear from the start that I feel uncomfortable with him doing literally everything except hitting the shots.

[Jim_Kennedy]

GPazin,
Here is the first mention of advice that I can find. It is the rules of the Montrose, Scotland golf club and dates at 1830.

XV.  "Parties are at liberty to ask advice for directions from their partners, or cadies, in playing, but not from onlookers, whose observations on the play are not to listened to; and while the one party is prohibited from walking before the other, it is understood, that no spectator shall interfere in the most distant manner with the game while playing."

It seems that a player could always ask his partner for advice. I am only speculating but seeing as how a caddie was included as part of the side in earlier rulings pertaining to touching or deflecting the ball it would follow that if he could cause a penalty for the side he was considered as part of the "side", therefore able to give advice without penalty.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Jim K

I shall phone my friends at Hotchkiss to find out why there is such an alarming outbreak of feeblemindedness amongst the 8-year olds there.  My 5-year old can count to 79 (and could go higher if I didn't constantly remind her that there are no numbers higher than that!).

Bob H

I just re-read my diary of my first trip to Scotland in 1978 and found out, lo and behold, that I managed to play TOC 3 times without ever getting lost!  I did manage to play my second shot to the 3rd at Prestiwck towards the 16th green, but I wouldn't have traded that experience for any number of  incomprehensible mot justes from some Woodbine-permeated caddy.

Also, I do not reside in Dornoch.  If I did, I would be getting 100 quid+/day tax free from all you American visitors, just like all the other formerly poverty stricken members who do actually live there!

Ciao

Ricardo

[ChipOat]

Rich:

As Sandy Matheson seconded me at RDGC after having been on my bag, perhaps a good reason to take a caddy is "hey - you never know".

Probably never happen at Cypress, though.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Chip

I'd rather be a caddy than a member at Cypress.  You'd probably get to play more and just think of all the money you'd save on caddy fees!

[Jim_Bick]

Rich,

Some typos strike closer than others. Bickbats?

Jim

[ian]

Rich,

I had a great experience that confirms my desire to use a caddy when I can. My father and I played Troon in a howling gale with the only sideways rain I have ever seen. Our caddy, Stanley, kept us laughing the whole way round. He told us manificent stories of his thirty plus years with the club and occasionally shared a shot of drambue when our spirits faded. I played remarkable well completely due to his suggestions and more so to his encouragement. I invited him our for dinner, and he told us some great stories of the players he had caddied for and some of the quirky members he sees on a regular basis. Rich, how can you get that without a caddy?

[Matt Kardash]

I'm all for people wanting caddies, but I just don't want one...Personally i can't enjoy golf as much with some dude next to me watching me play. Local knowledge is so overrated...I don't know any of you personally, but I'd be willing to bet that most of you aren't good enough to even take advantage of the local knowledge the caddie can give you.
That's my 2.46 cents! hehe

[A_Clay_Man]

Rich- I think caddies should pay you to carry your bag. That will eleviate the master/servant "Feeeling".

But, if the weather turns more than once and you change in and out and back into again, rain gear. You have to pay him triple.

[JakaB]

A caddie program allows you to walk with your friends or buisness associates who can't or won't carry their own bag...I did fieldwork twice last week where I carried my own while the rest of the group used caddies...it would have ruined two beautiful October days otherwise.

[Bob_Huntley]

Chipcoat:

Re Cypress caddie. There was once a member's son who caddied there for years. He did not, under rules of primogeniture inherit the crown jewels!

Bob

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