[Dave_Miller]

Erich:

Just saw your post.  Have not played Pacific Dunes. However I have played Pebble on numerous occasions.

Accepting the 12 so-so holes in my mind is very difficult.

Take a walk around the course.
#1- Ok a decent starting hole
#2- Par 5 for us mortals but like Brookline as a Par 4 a very good hole.  Actually not a bad Par 5.
#3,4,5- As Chip Oat says IMHO three pretty good holes
#6 - Again IMHO a pretty good par 5
#7,8,9,10 and again IMHO#11 are as good as it gets.

Heck I don't need to go any further just back it up #18, 17, 16, OK maybe 15 but 14 is great.  

Forget the rest.

Where are these 12 so-so holes.

Sorry Erich but if you've only played it once.  You don't understand that golf course.  

I don't need the comparison to Pacific Dunes.  Pebble stands on its own.

If I ever do get to play Pacific then maybe I can make the comparison.  But what's the Point.  Pebble will still be great.

Best,
Dave

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Weiman,

In reading your previous posts it appeared that you hadn't figured it out, that's why I thought I would clarify it for you.  I'm always eager to assist you in that endeavor.

Bob Huntley,

I'm hard pressed to find 12 so-so holes at Pebble Beach.
But, I have not seen the new 5th hole.

I would also ask Erich what tees he played, as that might have influenced his judgement.

[Tpm Doak]

Pebble Beach gets unplayable when the wind blows hard (which is not so often).  Pacific Dunes gets better.

Also, I know that the management of Pebble Beach (and a lot of people who live there) make a point of coming to play Pacific Dunes every so often ... it's one of the nicest compliments I've gotten to date on the course.  I don't think anyone from Bandon is headed to Pebble soon.   :)

Hey, I realize that Pebble Beach is a sacred cow.  I'm still slapping myself silly thinking that a group of raters picked Pacific Dunes #2 among resorts, above Pinehurst No. 2.  But I'd rather be here!

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

PD is an excellent course, but a relative "virgin" in golfing terms.  It had a lot of immaturity when I saw it about a year ago.  How it will evolve, I don't know.  I hope Tom D get;'s a chance to stay involved and insure that it grows older elegantly.  Sure, Darren and I walked 52 at PD, but I was completely gutted when I finished, which I would not have been at any course truly routed for walking such as TOC, NGLA, Brora, Rye, Olympic (as long as I didn;t have to climb back up to the clubhouse each time!), etc.  Abnd, Daren is young, trim and fit and I am old, round and persnickety....

Those who bash PB's "bad" holes should look at the thread on 8,9,10 of TOC.  If any of those holes were on Pebble they would be laughed off this site.  Compare 8 TOC to 12 PB, for example.  Neither is a great par-3, but really guys--try to imagine switching the two.  On TOC PB 12 becomes a classic.  On PB,TOC 8 becomes--what the f**k was the archie thinking when he designed this garbage!  I won''t even try to talk about TOC 9 and 10 vs. PB 15 or 3 or..........

[TEPaul]

Rich:

Didn't you know TOC has always gotten a pass when the cognescenti talk about it, or parts of it? Even Max Behr said as much!

Parts of TOC are obviously very much pre-architecture and the wise always felt it wasn't a very cool idea to insult Father Nature!

TOC is one of the best examples anywhere (maybe the only example left anymore) of when golf was a "sport"--not the "game" we view it to be today!

Clearly parts of TOC are so old those areas have not yet had the opportunity for the genius of man to make them better for the "game" of golf!

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Tom P

So how did you find TOC 8,9,10 when you played them?  Probably very much like Pine Valley 8,9,10 when I didn't play those holes.  I think Max Behr actually played TOC, so I can give him a pass for giving it a pass.  As for you........

[Erich]

Okay, let me awnser some of these questions.  For one, I played from the tips.  Number two I shot three shots under my handicap (i.e. 77).  So, I was not influenced by blow up holes or weak shots.  I just thought Pacific Dunes was better all the way around.  No cars, no noise, no cart paths, no carts, no excessive fees: just pure beutiful golf.  Pacific had better bunkering, better conditioning, better variety, better ocean views, better halfway house (my God they sell visor and windbreakers at pebble).  Their was very little pureness to Pebble when you put it up against Pacific.  

I have two comparisons to kind of explain my point.  In 2000 I went to Bandon and played the Bandon Dunes course a few times and then I flew to Chicago and drove up to Whistling Straits and played it the next day.  My opinion of the two was simply this= Whistling was more dramatic to the eye but Bandon was the better course for pure golf.  

My second comparison ties into something completely removed from golf.  I spent a few weeks in Italy a few years back and it almost directly relates to this comparison.  For the first week we spent it in a small hillside town.  Simply taking in the scenery and enjoying some beutiful serene views and out of this world food.  We then ventured to Roma and were thrown back into this dirty, noisy, city where every ten seconds someone was trying to pick pocket you.  Now, granted their is absolutely incredible things to see and do in Rome, but given the choice of pure beauty and serentity versus noise and flash, well I would take the hillside town every day of the week.  

So, I guess that is why I thought Pacific was better than Pebble.  In the end, Pebble might be the better course when it comes to architectural discussion but I wouldn't pay the coin to play it again when their are better choices out there.

[D. Kilfara]

Rich,

With all of the hills at Pebble, don't you think that would be just as diffcult a walk as PD? PD has very few killer climbs to make, whereas Pebble has steep climbs at #6, #8 and #11, and more gradual but nevertheless tough climbs at #4, #13 and #14. They're much of a muchness in that regard, for my money.

(By the way, I don't know how you think Olympic is an easy walk - that has to be one of the tougher walks I've had in recent memory. I came off the 18th green wheezing, and then had to climb back to the clubhouse! No way am I doing 52 holes in a day there...and don't forget, the day after I walked 52 at Pacific Dunes, I walked another 45 at Bandon Dunes!)

Talking about TOC 8/9/10 in this thread is a total non sequitur, surely - of course they'd be out of place at Pebble, because Pebble's a completely different type of golf course. And, of course, you're known to dislike TOC. Beware...the BIAS police are stalking you!

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

Erich:

The way things are today, with the cost factored in, the crowds, all the carts, the touristy feel... Pacific Dunes is indeed a superior golf experience to Pebble Beach.  

However, I was fortunate enough to play Pebble several years ago on a day filled with cancellations (it had poured rain the previous day) and my Dad and I had the course to ourselves, playing in 3 hours, only taking that long because we took some pictures.  The round was comped, also.

Put yourself in that situation and which is the superior golf experience?

Pebble Beach is the better golf course, plain and simple, as Ran and others have eloquently explained.  This is no knock on Pacific Dunes, which is fantastic... and I'm sure people from Pebble do go up to Bandon and play, it's cheaper for them to do so, flight included!  It is also a great "getaway" and the feeling of seclusion, the way the entire place oozes golf and more golf, is very, very cool.

I love Pacific Dunes, I really do.  It hurts to even make this comparison.  And hell yes, if it's on my dime I play Pacific three times instead of Pebble once.  But that's not really the question here... or is it?

TH

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Darren

I'm on record (many times) as saying I like TOC.  What's not to like?  She's like somebody else's grandmother.

As a golf course, however, she is overrated.  As is Pacific Dunes, IMHO........

[THuckaby2]

Darren

I'm on record (many times) as saying I like TOC.  What's not to like?  She's like somebody else's grandmother.

As a golf course, however, she is overrated.  As is Pacific Dunes, IMHO........

Wow!  Naccarato and Doak in one swipe... you do show no trepidation, Rich!  

[D. Kilfara]

Yeah, Tom, you're right. Rich is truly the Fearless One!

But Tom, I disagree with the assessment that "Pebble Beach is the better golf course" independent of the current experience at both facilities. There's no scientific proof which can determine which is better (which seems to be implied by your stagement), and I'm sticking with my assessment that Pebble is the overrated course, not PD. That is an assessment grounded upon 20+ rounds at Pebble and 5-6 at PD; my own bias may therefore be overexposure to Pebble, meaning that I've come to think of Pebble as more of a cliche or a punchline than a magical experience, but familiarity doesn't always breed contempt with me, either. I just think there's more fun to be had from both the architecture and the aesthetics at PD, and that the lesser holes at PD are far superior to the lesser holes at Pebble. As always, feel free to disagree...

Cheers,
Darren

[john bernhardt]

Please describe the location of the long trap Bob H noted in his post. Is it along the right side of the fairway in the 2nd shot landing zone?

[THuckaby2]

DK:  I'll just leave the "better golf course" assessment to people superior at this to me, like Ran way up above.  It's not night and day, Cypress v. San Jose Muni better, don't get me wrong... but I just tend to agree with Ran's assessment.  We can and have disagreed on this, and that is just fine.

Maybe I just focus on the "positive"... you may be right that the lesser holes at PD are superior to those at PB, though I find the lesser holes at PB pretty damn great... In any case I kinda look at it the other way:  PD has no holes as great as 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 or 18 at PB.... oh, again, it's close.. and there are some damn fantastic golf holes at PD (my faves are 6,7,8,11,13,16) but those don't measure up, to me, to the greats at Pebble...

Once again, this is very close, which is a hell of a testament to PD, for me anyway.

TH

[THuckaby2]

David:

Do your parents use your proper name when they are about to scold you?  

You know I love ya man, and watching your conversion to NGLA believer has been inspiring.  However, this misguided anti-Pebble feeling of yours has got to stop.  Pasatiempo is fine and dandy but it ain't Pebble Beach.  But ok, we've battled that too many times already... I know your love for that course, hell I share it for the most part.  In any case, although I find a lot to agree with in your assessment of Pebble Beach, I must take exception to a few of your comments:

2 is mediocre.
Hmmmm... call that a par4, as they have in recent US Am and USOpen, and you still find that mediocre?  490 yards with a carry over a ravine, to a green sloped away that is an absolute bitch to read?  You're gonna have to define mediocrity, my friend.

4. is flat out easy and mediocre.
I defy you to two putt that green from above the hole.  Flat out easy?  I'll take my chances that you make more 5's there than 3's... I tend to really like this hole - love the choice on the tee shot - ie just how close do I want to get it to the green.. love the difficult pitch, love the green surrounded by odd-shaped bunkers, love the sea to the right... again, if this is mediocrity, in the words of a great man, bring it on, bitch.  

5 is mediocre.
Huh.  Just a mid-iron with ocean on your right to another green sloping away.  You have very high standards, David.

7 is unique and if I had to call this hole mediocre or more than that, I'd say mediocre.  Compare #7 at Pebble to #6 at NGLA and there is no comparison!  
That sound you heard was my fit of apoplexy.  So ok, #6 at NGLA has one of the world's great greens.  Fine and dandy.  But it's also HUGE, damn near unmissable - ask Gene what I did there -  and well... the surrounding area ain't exactly the Pacific Ocean, and it doesn't exactly get the wind one finds at Pebble.  I suppose you do need to play it more, as I can assure you that whilst Ken Venturi may be exaggerating re the 3iron required, I have indeed hit a punch 7 as often as a lofted wedge there.  Your blasphemy at this point causes revocation of your CA visitor card.  Sorry, no more Pasa, no more Cypress until you acknowledge that 7 at Pebble is a great little par 3.  

The rest of your assessment is acceptable.  Recant your sins and we'll take you back.

TH

[Tim Weiman]

Guys:

If I say I'd much prefer to play Pacific Dunes, people might just think I'm wrong. But, what if I went further out on a limb and said I'd prefer little old Dooks to Pebble? I'm sure many would think I had lost my mind!

Is that really how I feel? Well, yes, I think so. Dooks won't make anyone's top 100. Being only 6,000 yards and sometimes questionable in the conditoning department, many people just wouldn't take it seriously. Big mistake.

Speaking of its virtues, an Irish friend of mine and proud Ballybunion member put it this way: "This place is really cool......it doesn't deserve to be......it just is".

Therein lies the point. It shouldn't just be a "debate"......is Pebble Beach better than Pacific Dunes or even Dooks. It should be more about sharing what makes a venue so appealing. Or what disappoints.

Dooks, for instance, has several things Pebble Beach can't touch. For starters, there is the quirkiness one can't help but find charming. There is also a pleasantness to the club (led by Secretary Rose Cunningham), a peaceful tranquility that Pebble doesn't offer. I'd even say that the overall setting in Dingle Bay might be better than the views at Pebble. At Pebble you can't look out at what Sean Walsh called the greatest piece of land in the world to build a golf course and fantasize whether Arthur Spring will ever be able to pull it off. Finally, there is the 13th green, where a four putt is always waiting.

What Dooks doesn't have is anything like the cliff holes at Pebble. But, so what? If your search is for joy not the latest top 100, you sure won't regret turning off the road on the way to Waterville.

I get more from thinking about Pebble vs Dooks than Pebble vs Pacific Dunes because some people might rate Pacific Dunes higher, but nobody would say the same for Dooks. Yet, I'd still rather be in Dooks than Pebble......the ratings be damned!

The "debate" aspect is overdone, I'll say again. It's better to share what makes the journey to visit a venue worthwhile, in my opinion.

[THuckaby2]

Hmmm... well Tim, I'd rather be at Studio City par 3 course playing with my Dad than with three corporate idiots at Pebble... Studio City has a meaning and a feel that Pebble can never duplicate... but that really isn't the question here, is it?  Or is it?  

Take the scenario I placed to Erich - you and your most cherished golf partner playing an empty Pebble in three hours, gratis.  

If you'd still rather be at Dooks than do that, then ok, to each his own.

See the problem I have is Pebble gets "knocked" for everything except the golf course....

I too don't see this as a debate, and yes, what makes the journey worth doing is indeed the most interesting aspect of all of this.  

Let's just compare apples to apples, if comparisons are to be made....

TH

[THuckaby2]

Oh David, David, David.  You obviously don't want to play Pasa or Cypress again.

OK, I'll let you slide re #2.  To me the ditch/ravine/place you don't want your freakin' ball to go makes that an interesting hole, coupled with the green itself.  But ok, it's not "great."  I just have a hard time calling it mediocre.  But hey, that's cool, as I say I can live with this one.

#4 - you need to play it again.  Ask Tom "took a 6 in the 92 Open 4th round" Kite how simple and easy it is....

#5 - I really do think the green slopes from left to right and a little bit away... in any case to me that's a long shot with a pretty spectacular hazard.  I suppose a hole is a hole and this would be the same if it's a garbage dump to the right?  Come on Dave, we don't play with our eyes closed.

#7 - ok, there's no convincing you here.  You must indeed have some pretty good blinders not to notice the beauty of what has to be in the top 10 most beautiful golf holes on this earth.  Yes, it's generally a wedge.  Yes, the green is flat.  But the green is also quite small and very missable, and the wind does exist.

I'm not gonna argue re #6 at NGLA, which is a GREAT GOLF HOLE for sure.  But so is 7 at Pebble.  You need to discover this... which you will, some day... just gotta get you out here with some wind or with some guys giving you crap on the tee.  Gee, I wonder who could fit that bill??

TH

ps - you're toast if you miss the green within the green on 6 at NGLA, huh?  A certain Californian loud-mouth two-putted from the far left fringe to a front right pin.  Toast is in the eye of the beholder...  

[Doug Wright]

What a great discussion. Seems like old times...
 
It seems like there is a matter of emphasis going on here, with the "experiential" side (Erich) favouring Pacific Dunes whilst the true architectural types (Ran et al) favouring Pebble. I don't think Erich has yet told us how he feels about the architecture apart from the "ambiance." I also don't know if it's possible to totally separate the two. It's particularly hard for me, because my only round at Pebble Beach was magical and in a time gone by (1982) when the "ambiance" at Pebble at least for me was very similar to what I experienced earlier this year at Pacific Dunes--incredible and uncluttered. When I explore the two courses just looking at the ground without the other stuff, Pebble seems like a more pure test of golf. See the comments of Ran Morrisett above.   But hell, we're just talking about two flavours of excellent ice cream here.

And Tim, I'm with you re Dooks. How sir do you compare Dooks and Pacific Dunes? From the standpoint of pure "fun" it's hard to separate the two IMO. Dooks has more overt quirk, but the subtle, more modern stuff that Doak has done at Pacific Dunes is pretty compelling too!

All The Best,

[THuckaby2]

Very well said, Doug.

The interesting thing to me here is that I am typically a vehement proponent of the experiential, yet here I am espousing the other side in this discussion.  Just do realize that I'd agree that Pebble loses a LOT when you pay $400 and it takes 6 hours... you REALLY have to have patience to enjoy a round like that.

I'm just trying to separate this, that's all.  Erich initially said PD is a better golf course and to me Ran sums up pretty well why that's at least difficult to support.

Yes, where one would rather be, rather spend a weekend, rather spend some money takes in so many different variables, shows ones values way more - but is a very different discussion, one that we had in the first Survivor thread!

TH

ps - my take on Pebble comes from a time gone by also...

[Tim Weiman]

Tom Huckaby:

Empty Pebble for three hours and I would still rather be in Dooks. Cypress would be a different story.

But, I think very few people actually strip away all the surrounding influences and think only about the "golf architecture". Have you ever actually met such a person? Does anyone who participates here actually fit into that category?

One final point. We can debate the virtues of each hole, but I hear more complaints about the golf course itself than anything else. Face it. Many people just don' get excited about 1-3 or 11-16......almost half the golf course.

I've never heard such comments about Pine Valley, NGLA or Shinnecock.

Don't cry for Pebble. People will still go in droves. Just 7-10 makes it a definite "once in a lifetime".

Besides, "Katy's Place" in Carmel is damn hard to beat for a great breakfast. Only the lodge at Blackwolf Run stands out for me as being as sinfully good!

[THuckaby2]

no doubt 7 is beautiful.  I can't and wouldn't refute that.  It's as beautiful as they come.   And like every hole in the world, if you hit a crap shot, you might make bogey.  But is there anything really,truly subtle or difficult about that hole that makes it harder than any other 110 yard downhill par 3, even for a well hit tee shot?  It seems to be a fairly straightforward proposition, and a relatively easy one at that (even with my garbage wedge game).  I honestly think the hole is overrated, but I'd be happy to eat the scorecard if I can be proven wrong.        

You really want to do that AGAIN, Dave?

See how you got the short name back?

I don't find it to be straightforward at all, because the green is pretty small and the hazards are numerous.  Add to that the "distraction" of the beauty and well... at the very least it is tough to call this golf hole mediocre.

We'll get you back out here with some wind, Dave.  You're now allowed back in.  

TH

[THuckaby2]

Tim:

Count me as one who doesn't separate the experience from the architecture - I used to have a great quote from Dick Daley at the bottom of each post that said exactly that.

I was just trying to say that Pebble is not ALWAYS so horrible in the experience, that's all.

As for me, I'd take Sand Hills over Pebble anyway, in the "quick round with your favorite partner" scenario.  But that's not a knock on Pebble so much as it is a testament to the greatness of Sand Hills.  I gather you'd say the same for Dooks.  This just shows what each of us values, and is a cool discussion indeed.

I'd say there are very few courses that would surpass Pebb;e for me - likely it takes only one hand to count them.  That's pretty damn good....

In any case, re the holes themselves, well... again I say just accentuate the positive.  IF there are "weak" holes at Pebble, which I'm not ready to agree with, obviously, then the greatness of the great ones overcomes this to such an extent that it really doesn't matter.

TH

ps - I bought the Cornish & Graves book you touted and WOW!  This should be required reading, a bible for GCA enthusiasts.  Thank you very much for the recommendation...

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Dave

You are right about #7 at Pebble but wrong about #4.

Tom

You are right about #4 and wrong about #7.

Now, both of youse--get back to work!

Rich

[THuckaby2]

Rich - love it!  Ok, at .500 the Giants would love to have me.

Work?  Isn't that what this is?

TH

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