[Dan Kelly]

Tom,

Dan and I crossed in cyberspace, and you caught my Coop
response before I could remove it. Man, you're fast.  

AL

And now I've removed MY post -- because I think I was wrong, after all. So now we have Tom IV saying THANK YOU DAN KELLY! ... for what?

For everything.  

[THuckaby2]

Very well said and right on, Darren.  That's what I meant way up above in saying that there's more to golf than just playing NATO, that you miss out on the "highs" that conquering fear of failure provides.

So for me, mostly NATO, every so often a foray into competition, still getting very excited / apprehensive at great courses... that seems to work pretty well.  Golf is as fun for me as it ever has been.

Fear of failure is obviously ok... getting away from anger at it is a great thing, one with which MANY of us struggle.   I know I do, always have...

This is a darn interesting thread - thanks, Rich.

And Dan and Allan, no hassles, thanks for the help - I make little sense most of the time so some non-sensical posts above sure don't bother me!  I'm gonna find who coined the term NATO re golf... and it is one of Rotella or Koop, I am pretty sure....

TH

[RJ_Daley]

Of course a term like fear evokes widely varying understandings and is dependent on the context of how the word is used and the experiences of the person summing up all fears.  When we try placing the word fear side by side in two different contexts; one being the moments before the front gate drops on the beach landing craft at D-day, and the other trying to make your golf shot across a severe hazard...well, we all get that absurd comparison.

But, if we all understand it to be some degree of anxious or nervous anticipation based on disdain or embarrassment to not accomplish some skill or goal, and the potential consequences of falling short, well the golf game is full of all manner of degrees of that kind of "fear".  There is the uncomfortable feeling of uncertainty in a blind shot, and the known consequences of not executing a shot over a hazard or the thrill of flirting with a hazard that will likely extract a penalty on your progress to the goal.  

Tom Paul asks the important question as to how these emotions are stimulated through golf architecture.  Are there some architects that create intense bursts of this "fear factor" and others that design more of an experience of ebb and flow of emotions that range from thrill and anxiety to uncertainty and and trepidation to make a certain choice of how to negotiate a design feature.  

Golf course design may be something like life.  If you provide severe tests with dire consequences too often on a golf course, you get burned out and worn down to the point of just not enjoying it anymore.  You become an insatiable thrill seeker.  But, if you provide occasional thrills combined with more constant elements of uncertainty and anticipation yet consequenses of less dire results that can be dealt with, short of  the scenario of "game over" where you're out of the hole so to speak, I think you have a better model for good golf course design.  

GCA = thrill and anticipation < fear.  

[THuckaby2]

Classic, Dave.

Ever tried to explain the difference between "grinding" and just having fun to a high handicapper?  Tried to explain that vastly more often it's more fun to just screw it and not keep score or care about the result... that if score is kept or the result is tallied it's nearly impossible for someone who has played competitively NOT to grind, at least a little?  This comes back to fear of failure, which is worse when you haven't given your best effort.

You KNOW what I'm talking about here, I'd bet my life on it.  But so few others do... at least not in my normal golf crowd.

TH

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Dave

As your Muse for the day, I think that "Grinding" should be the next thread you start.

Cheers

Rich

[THuckaby2]

I'm kinda happy you didn't shoot 36 the front nine our round at Barona - the back wouldn't have nearly been so much fun (for me anyway) - as I assume the grinding would preclude Caddyshack references and recitation of every line from the call of Jack's back nine in the 86 Masters, right?

TH

[A.G._Crockett]

This has been great to read!  Now, the question is, next August in the club championship, when I take 41 putts due to terminal yips the first day and then drink beer before and during the second day round to get my nerves under control, will I be able to remember what NATO and SEATO mean?
     Related question:  Is on-course alcoholism valid as a cure for bad putting under pressure?

[THuckaby2]

All of this is epic in my book, Dave, and just adds to your legend.

You do realize that every single time I see someone hit a big drive now I do an impression of you doing an impression of Ben Wright...  

TH

[THuckaby2]

AGC:  I ought not to confess this but I have tried that route for putting cures.  It helps only temporarily.... that is, it helps so long as you STOP drinking at some point!

TH

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Tom IV

On this point, you are wrong.  The cardinal sin of drinking and golfing is to NOT let the "lager level" get too low.  The course record at Dornoch is held by an obscure assistant pro who was poured onto the 1st tee would have shot 59 or better had he not sobered up on the 15th.

[THuckaby2]

You make a good point, Rich.  I stand corrected.  The greatest score I ever had on a par 72 course occurred in similar circumstances...  

TH

[Andy Hodson]

A few ramblings:

--There is definite fear when playing golf. Especially tournament golf. And therein lies the fundamental difference between golf and tournament golf. In tournament golf there can be all kinds of fear, real and imagined. Fear of failure, fear of embarassment, fear of people you don't know believing that what you just shot really is an indicator of what kind of player you are, fear of success, fear of blowing a good round going, etc.

--Another way to look at the difference in the two types of golf is in an example a friend of mine from high school said. He was a track athlete in HS. And wondered why that in meets he would run in his 3 or 4 wide foot lane as fast as he could and never think of running outside of it. But put him on a 3 or 4 foot wide piece of scaffolding 100 feet in the air....and not only could he not run confidently, he would be frozen with fear. Tournament golf puts our games 100 feet in the air, and we become less confident.

--And, of course architects use fear in their designs. Pete Dye being the most notorious. The 17th at Sawgrass is a 9 iron or PW at most for the Touring Pros...to a big green. Why do so many hit it in the water? Fear of the number 5, perhaps. (Quintadescaphobia?)

--Fear is a good thing in golf. Because the conquering of it means success. And success in golf is fun! We need the inner and outer challenges, or why play at all? Aren't we all trying to get better at this silly game? If some of you are not really wanting to be better, I'd love to know why not.  

[Andy Hodson]

Maybe I should add another fear:

Fear of sobering up.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

With Pro V-1s going for about $15 a sleeve here on the resort, I get a little nervous teeing them up here on Kiawah, especially on The Ocean Course.  I've got two kids to put through school...!

[TEPaul]

I love this thread! There are more interesting personal explanations and reactions to golf on this thread than I've seen on Golfclubatlas! I think everyone should let that out on this thread and we can get into how it all might affect golf architecture later.

Dave Schmidt:

Your couple of posts are particularly interesting and personal. I don't mean anything critical by this but I've seen a lot of real potential golfers who go about the game at times sort of like you say you do sometimes.

I would almost call it a "fear of success"--which has to be some variation on a fear of failure. Guys like that (one glaring example I know of) like to spend time hitting shots with others watching on the practice range and playing golf with people they have no doubt they're better than. It makes them feel comfortable, I guess.

I think that's a fear of failure that's so acute it's a fear of success when they probably know damn well they have the tools but can't put themselves into the cauldron at a level that they have to really test themselves in every way. Obviously people like that just can't take testing themselves, for whatever reason!

That glaring example, I mentioned was a guy who really had the tools--frankly he hit the ball like a touring pro and plenty of pros who saw him said the same thing. But on the tournament circuit around here he just couldn't hack it.

Basically I'd have to say he just didn't have the guts to compete and take the failure we all do before we get where we think we're capable of getting.

It was a shame--a true waste of talent. I used to tell him with his physical ability and my ability to course manage he would rarely not be successful in any tournament. That was a way to induce him to enter the tournaments and get out there and compete even if he had a terrible hangover (which he almost always had). He said he would but he never did. He even entered plenty and would always withdraw for all kinds of dumb reasons and now it's too late--too much time passed! I hate that stuff--he could have done it and he didn't even try. And the double tragedy is I KNOW he wanted to so much!!

For me, like anyone else, I'm sure, the "fear factor" really does have to do with a real fear of failure. The only way to get over that is to go out there so much and fail time after time and keep going back and when you do the successess (of your own expectations) are going to come sooner or later and then it's mostly behind you (that is if you keep doing it and don't quit in some kind of frustration).

Golf's a real great game that way--the part other than just recreational golf. I have so much I owe to that (for my own level) and my Dad did too!

Basically I did better than I ever thought I could (because I never hit it much like those I played against) and I had successes I never thought I'd have (I also started playing competitively at about 38--real late).

It's very gratifying to me, the doing it, having done it and the fraternity of those you meet here and there in the competitive levels.

It probably may never have happened for me either if not for a bit of a fluke. I was a good player at the club level but I'd never gone out and really tested myself at a level higher than the one I was comfortable in. And one day my Dad came to see me play in an better ball tournament here. I didn't show up for the last round and he was so disappointed (although he tried to hide it) I swore to him (and to myself) I would never do that again and I would try to go to another level and never drop out again no matter what.

And basically I never did again. I would play feeling bad, feeling like I had no game, the terrible weather (which I hate BTW) etc. And to my amazement the successes seemed to come despite those things, in the worst of times, the oddest of times!

And I did it so much (maybe up to 35 tournaments a year for quite a while) that it got like old hat, no matter what! I look back now and wonder how I played some of the people I did and did as well as I did.

Looking back now it's very gratifying and I'm sorry to say now I've sort of stopped but after all I said above I think I have a pretty good idea when to hold em and when to fold em--I'm too old now for a particular level I once did well at with my goals and it's time to stop that. I never had much game anyway but I sure knew where my strengths and weaknesses were. And again there was no "if" to me in the results--just what was!

I'm sure glad I did all that and I would encourage any of you who have the time and inclination to try to do the same in a competitive level--on a tournament circuit. If you don't give in to your "fear factor" and just keep at it you can probably overcome it as best as possible. I know I overcame my own personal "fear factor" as well as I ever could have!

[Doug Siebert]

Tom H,

Your mention of fear/pressure when playing on great courses one may only play once or a handful of times really struck a chord with me.  If a clerical error resulted in a member of Augusta National inviting me over for a single round, I'd feel a lot of pressure knowing I'd never have another chance at it.  I might not really care if I screwed up on comparatively mundane holes like the 1st, but I'd hate to dump in the water on 12, hook it into the woods on 13 or 15, chunk it into the front bunker on 18, etc.  If I played Cypress I'd feel like you on the 16th, but know I had to go for the green no matter the weather or how I was playing, because it might be my one and only shot.

However, on courses I know I'll return to (or at least be able to) my feelings are different.  On my second time to TOC last year, I played a shot nearly everyone would advise against, and hit a 7 iron from the wispy rough on the left, right over the Road Bunker trying to hold the green.  Why in the world would I do that?  Well, the first time I played I was so wound up on that hole worrying about the places everyone says you shouldn't go, the road and the Road Bunker, that I duck hooked it 30 yards left of the green into some deep rough, and doubled it.  I had decided this time to not worry about it.  After all, I figure I'll play that hole at least a few more times in my life, eventually I'm going to put it on the road or in that bunker.  So what, I'd hate to play it a dozen times and have never faced a shot from the Road Bunker or off the road.  I took care of playing off the road last time (it is not easy to hold that green :-)) and got my par.  So maybe next time I'll put it in the bunker and see if I can get up and down from there.  That actually makes a better story than if I say I played it safe out to the right and chipped it up and down, or even that I held the green and two putted for the par.

The other time I really felt pressure that trip was the 16th at Carnoustie.  First time I was there, I aced it in a 25 mph crosswind, and it was my first ace.  I'd just had my second ace a few weeks before my trip, so I kinda figured I'd used up my quota for awhile, so my main goal was to attempt to keep my lifetime average on the hole below par.  It was raining (heavily at times) that day, and I used a 4 iron same as I did for the ace.  I don't know how I hit it square and straight with as tight as I felt, but I hit it right at the flag.  For a moment I thought I might do it again, until it landed just short of the green and stayed there.  I knew I needed another club due to the fact I'd see no roll, but I couldn't bring myself to not hit the same club as before due to some sort of inner superstition.  Damned if I didn't make a pretty long putt from off the green for a 2, though!  Lifetime average on #16 Carnoustie: 1.5.  Beat that, Tiger!  More importantly, I finished par, bogey to end even for 16-18.  Last time I'd gone par-par to finish -2, and my caddie told me he'd been carrying for 40 years and never seen anyone finish the final three at -2, and that's still my lifetime total there too.  I know I'll feel even MORE pressure next time I'm on 16 tee, as well as 17 & 18, to keep these records intact.  I know they don't mean anything at all in the big scheme of things, especially I failed to break 80 either time.  But while I know there's no way I'll ever put together 18 holes there that compete with a pro (unless you count the last couple guys on opening day of the Open) at least when I watch the pros and see no one touch my average on 16 or totals on 16-18, I can feel that at least on one or two occasions, for a couple holes, I can take 'em all on :-)

[Frightened Knife]

As a golfer and as cutlery, my fear is an existential one. I am afraid to slice.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Doug

Next time you plan to play Carnoustie, let me know.  I'll meet you out on the 16th tee carying one of those toonamint signs saying "Siebert" and "-2" in big red numbers.

Rich

[Dan King]

FDR once saw Ben Hogan preparing for the Masters and told him, "You have nothing to fear but fear itself." It was Hogan's secret and it changed his game forever.

Dan King
dking@danking.org

furu-ike ya
kawazu tobi-komu
izu-no-oto

in other words:

old pond
frog jump in
water sound
--Matsuo Basho

[D. Kilfara]

Doug

Next time you plan to play Carnoustie, let me know.  I'll meet you out on the 16th tee carying one of those toonamint signs saying "Siebert" and "-2" in big red numbers.

Rich

Better make it "-3", Rihc!

Doug, have you ever aced an easy hole?

Cheers,
Darren

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rich,
While I can totally understand your thougths on FEAR, especially when it comes to small children, medium children and even big children, in all of this I detect that you may have lost some passion along the way. Or was there ever any?

I'm not saying this to be rude or mean or even spiteful, I have not one iota of reason to be that way. I like you.

However, you have to remember when reading my posts, I'm not an educated man in your sense. I come from a completely different backgorund and I'm probably nothing more then white trash in your view. But the difference is that I have a passion for what I see, and while I may not find the best words to describe the invoke of adrenaline, rushing through my brain, with warning signs of an impending doom or finality, I try my best. I hope everyday that it is my best quality.

You can even call it all a over-abundance of flair for the dramatic if you want to, but standing on the tee at #5 at Pine Valley did in fact make me nervous, edgy, even scared.  So did standing on the tee @ #11 on the Old Course.

I would like to think that I was being put to a challenge and the first response was the first thing that came to mind--and that was, "what if I fail to cross the hazard and what if I do make it across and end up in one of the bunkers where I have an even tougher shot that might even further deterre me from trying to be the best I can be?"

OK, maybe I didn't think of all of that while standing on that tee. But then again, it left some very lasting impressions. But those impressions are what incite my memory and keeps me going when I'm doing my day to day white trash duties. (of course while day dreaming)

I wasn't gifted with the brain like Brains. But it also makes me want to earn more moeny so I can see more and experience more. For me, its all about the memory, and the vision of what I saw and what I didn't see and what I can hopefully see again.

And there is the FEAR of knowing you might not ever get to ever see it ever again, and that is what makes it even more realistic. (Like Merion)

You have had the gift to see some pretty amazing courses in your lifetime. I could only hope you shared the same visions of what the experience meant to you, hopefully as I hae and know that there are people out there that wish that will spend their whole lifetimes not ever knowing what the 11th on the Old Course or the 5th at Pine Valley even looks like.

I can only hope that they can see that through some of us when we post here.

[Doug Siebert]

Doug

Next time you plan to play Carnoustie, let me know.  I'll meet you out on the 16th tee carying one of those toonamint signs saying "Siebert" and "-2" in big red numbers.

Rich

And to further mess with my mind, bring a few hundred people to watch.  I might be out of the red figures before I reach the green!

[Doug Siebert]

Better make it "-3", Rihc!

Doug, have you ever aced an easy hole?

Cheers,
Darren

Well, my other was last year a couple weeks before I left for Scotland on my home course's 13th.  Playing 185 yards that day, downhill to an island green which, including the rough surrounding the green, is still smaller than the 17th at Sawgrass.  What's the point of getting an ace on an easy hole, anyone can do that :-)

[Doug Siebert]

Something weird happened with that lost post, it shows up all black with no text other than the :-) for me...let's try it again.

Well, my other was last year a couple weeks before I left for Scotland on my home course's 13th.  Playing 185 yards that day, downhill to an island green which, including the rough surrounding the green, is still smaller than the 17th at Sawgrass.  What's the point of getting an ace on an easy hole, anyone can do that :-)

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Tommy

We all have different ways of feeling and expressing passion.  My writing style and my poker face might make me seem passionless at times, but I am not.  I have never yet met a golf course that did not stir my blood, at least on the 1st tee!  The best ones just stir it a bit more.

Nobody can help but feeling your passions when you write.  I respect them, and your judgement.  Sometimes you get carried away with yourself, such as in the "white trash" comments above, but so do we all.  One of my main agendas on this site is to have people with passion and knowledge such as yourself spend more time explaining to the rest of us why you like or don't like certain architectural features.  I appreciate what you have said on the Eden hole thread.  Keep up the good work!

Darren

"-2" was correct, as Doug was talking about his cumulative lifetime score on 16-18.

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