[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

On some of the current threads regarding specific golf holes, the issue of "fear" seems to be prevalent in some minds (e.g the fear of going into the Road Hole bunker, or of missing the green at 17 Sawgrass, etc.).

Maybe I am in urgent need of Dr. Katz, but I just can't get the ole' "fight or flight" hormonal jiuces flowing when faced with a ittty' bitty piece of sand, or some bit of water that I'll never have to wade into myself.

For fear to be real, it has to have some possibly dire consequences.  I have fear when I watch either of my daughters running down the sidewalk near a busy road.  I had a bit of fear when I came back from Belgium last week on a ferry with my daughters in the midst of 50 MPH gales and 10 foot seas.  And yet......

What is there to fear with, say the Devil's Asshole bunker?  Sure if you go in there it might take you a stroke or two or three to get out, but so what--particularly if you are just playing a casual round?  EVen if it is the only round you may ever play there?  Now, even if you are in that casual round, I can see some fear creeping in if you are on the 18th at PV and facing a slick 5-foot downhill putt to break 70 or 80 or 90, or whatever is your standard.  But, if you miss, will you still have you health and your family and your happiness.  Well, maybe if you are as obsessive as some of us here, perhaps not...........

I do get some fear when playing competitive rounds, where I know that I am playing on a completely level playing field with a group of fellow competitors, and I know that my efforts will be broadcast for all to see after the round.  In those cases, the up and down from a bunker that means 76 rather than 77 or 78 has value, at least to me--and the fear factor creeps up on me.  If that same shot were played in a bounce game, with the same score possibilities, the level of tension and "fear" would be significanlty less, at lesat for me.

Therefore what.......

Well, I just wonder how well any of us can really analyse any golf hole that we play only casually.  Can we disassociate ourselves from our happiness to really try to feel how a hole plays under real pressure?  Or, am I alone in not feeling any particular pressure or fear when I am out with friends playing golf, for fun, on any course--good, great or just charmingly ugly?

[THuckaby2]

Rich:  I'd say the degree of fear increases with the worth one attaches to the result.

I tend to play the vast majority of my golf in what you call bounce games, and I really, really try to be NATO (not attached to outcome).  There is no fear in games like this, when you truly don't care about the result (outcome) and are just hitting shots for the joy of striking the ball, the camraderie with friends, scenic beauty, beer, etc.  It's very fun.  But you also don't get the "high" that competitive success gives... but that's a subject for a different thread.

As you say, attach some worth to the outcome and fear becomes very real.  Competition necessarily means you care about the result, thus you want to put your best foot forward, so that downhill 4 foot left to right slider is scary indeed.

I'd differ from you though in that I can also see definite fear occurring on one-time chances at great courses.  I for one know my knees were shaking on the 16th tee at Cypress... here's most likely my ONE CHANCE to play perhaps the most famous hole in golf, and damn it's just a much better memory if the ball makes it across the ocean... not much fun to tell the boys back home "oh yeah, 16 is beautiful" - they always ask how you did!  So that's a form of fear in a "bounce game" most definitely.

Obviously a guy like Tommy who hits it into the DA on purpose plays fearlessly.  But he's also obviously playing NATO if he does that!  Thus I for one admire the Emperor for doing that.

So to me in the end it's a pretty easy equation...

TH

[Dave_Miller]

Rich:

I think the Fear Factor refers to the Fear of Failure.  Of Course if I miss this 5 Ft putt, or get in the road hole bunker, my life probably ain't chnaging a whole lot.  But you are trying to do what is correct and to miss is a degree of failure.  Maybe not a big degree but still a degree of failure.  To me that is the fear factor.

To me it is simply the competition with yourself and the golf course and the desire not to fail or miss.  

It is not in any way the same fear you face when your daughters are running on a sidewalk near a busy highway.  As you say those consequences are dire and that is obviously a much more serious degree of failure or fear.

You got it right.  If I miss that putt so what.  That's the worst that's gonna' happen.

Best,
Dave

[Dan Kelly]

For fear to be real, it has to have some possibly dire consequences.  I have fear when I watch either of my daughters running down the sidewalk near a busy road.  I had a bit of fear when I came back from Belgium last week on a ferry with my daughters in the midst of 50 MPH gales and 10 foot seas. ... [A]m I alone in not feeling any particular pressure or fear when I am out with friends playing golf, for fun, on any course--good, great or just charmingly ugly?

You are not alone. You said a mouthful there.

I, too, was struck -- as I have been many times, here at GCA and during tournament broadcasts -- by the inaptness (to my way of thinking about golf) of the word "fear" in a couple of recent threads (the Eden-hole one springs to mind).

I guess I'd go even further than you, Rich, and say that "fear" has no place even in competition, even in competition at the highest level. Nervousness, yes; pressure, yes; fear, no. You are right, I think, that true fear requires the possibility of dire consequences -- and if any of us thinks that hitting a bad shot or losing a golf match or posting a bad score is a dire consequence ... well, calling Dr. Katz!

Possibly aptly, you've reminded me of a comment Rick Shefchik made Tuesday while we were both making a mess of the 11th hole at Oak Glen -- a short par-5. He said, more or less: "If I had to choose any hole on the course where I had to make a par or lose my life, this'd be the one."

THERE'S fear: a par -- or your life! ("I'm thinking!")

Perhaps that's a new way of looking at these famous holes: Which of them would you choose -- or not choose -- if you needed a par to save your life?

[THuckaby2]

Dan:

OK, fair enough.  Obviously no fear on a golf course equals the fear a parent feels when his children are in peril.  If it does, you need way more than Dr. Katz.

The 2nd definition of "fear" in the Webster's I have is "anxious concern".  That's the kind of "fear" I'm talking about in a competitive golf situation or on the 16th tee at Cypress.

Under this definition I trust you can see how fear occurs....

Now a par to save one's life?  You want a list of the easiest golf holes I know... hoo boy, there are plenty on the munis here.  I still wouldn't want to do it... so make it a straightaway 260 yard par 4 with no bunkers or other hazards, thank you very much.  Par 4 gives me margin for error, short distance doesn't mean I have to hit the ball very solid.  There's a hole pretty much like this at a muni course near me...

TH

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Tom

If I were stadning on the 16th at CPC 3 over at the 1st annual GCA Open and Sir Bob appeared out of the forest with a "gin and it" in his hand and said, casually:  "You know, Rich, Tom is leader in the clubhouse with a 76" I'd probably never be able to draw back the club, knowing that all I had to do was finish 3,4,4 to beat the Evil Leprechaun.

As it was, in my first round there, I had nothing to do but enjoy myself and my company, and so the 3,4,4 finish was just an unexpected bonus.

Having played those holes (the second time) 5 (4-putt), 7, X, I know how hard they can be.  But "fear" is not the operative word.  Stupidity trips more easily off the tongue......

[Dan Kelly]

I tend to play the vast majority of my golf in what you call bounce games, and I really, really try to be NATO (not attached to outcome).

Tom IV --

I recommend that you try to be Serenely, Eternally Apathetic Toward Outcome (SEATO).

[THuckaby2]

Rich:  you just added to the fear for me in that situation!

I suppose this comes down to one's motivation.  I first played Cypress in 1981 as a snot-nosed brat, thinking I owned the golf world.  In that case I had a good round going and the fear was that I needed to get this ball across the chasm or the 70's are out of the picture.  The knees were shaking that time.  I suppose I'd equate this to your competitive situation - but of course for me the presence of Mr. Huntley would SOOTHE things - I'd take a swig of his g&t!

I played it again in October 2001, as you know.  The knees were shaking that time, for totally different reasons.  I had come to appreciate the game only a little bit better than the competitive 18 year old, had studied the course, you know, read up on it like you gave me a hard time for... this round MEANT something to me because it's such a great place, I've seen it in so many pictures, it is so damn famous... well, as i say I wanted my performance to equal the worth of the course in my mind.  Thus the fear on 16 tee was even greater, and that was the bounce of all bounce games, we weren't even keeping score, no bets, nothing.  But I WANTED a par on 16 more than I wanted to get home to San Jose safely, at that moment, in that place... failure would have been very difficult for me to accept, especially since I assume I may never get another chance at that hallowed place....

You and I have discussed this before and I know you give me a hard time about it... but some courses just MEAN more than others.  Attach competition to rounds at such and it makes the potential for fear greater, but at least for me, it still exists.

I felt the same way at NGLA, though you hopefully couldn't tell... nor could the great guys I played with at Cypress tell either... but the inner fear was there, believe me.

And to be honest, I hope I never get to a status where great courses like this don't get my blood running... conquering fear give a hell of a joy also....

Sorry for the rambling - I hope this makes some kind of sense.

TH

ps - again, please assume we're not talking fight or flight, kids are dying fear here - just the anxious concern definition.

[THuckaby2]

Tom IV --

I recommend that you try to be Serenely, Eternally Apathetic Toward Outcome (SEATO).

SEATO is indeed a higher form of NATO.  I'm working on it....  

TH

[Dan Kelly]

The 2nd definition of "fear" in the Webster's I have is "anxious concern".  That's the kind of "fear" I'm talking about in a competitive golf situation or on the 16th tee at Cypress.

Under this definition I trust you can see how fear occurs....

Well, OK, I hear ya -- though I think "anxious concern" is a lousy definition of "fear" and does a disservice to the word's higher meaning -- the meaning Prof. Goodale had in mind. (I distrust many second definitions -- which, very often, result from sloppy usages that spread through the populace and become so common that the lexicographers must shrug and pronounce them "acceptable." Example: If you have a recent dictionary, it'll probably tell you that "biweekly" means both "every two weeks" [its traditional meaning] and "twice a week" [its sloppily misused and increasingly common -- and now acceptable, in some quarters -- meaning]. Of course, if "biweekly" means both "every two weeks" and "twice a week," it's a useless, meaningless word!)

I know what you mean about that ersatz "fear" -- and I certainly know what you mean about feeling pressure to perform well on good courses ... especially good courses to which you may never have the privilege to return.

I've succumbed, fiercely, to that pressure on several occasions -- though not enough, of course.

[D. Kilfara]

Rich, I know you're a bright guy, so I can't see why you're overreacting like this. We use adjectives all the time in a sporting context which diminishes their potency. My wife's particular pet peeve is hearing a commentator use the word "bravery" to describe a soccer player's diving header or a golfer's flirting with a water hazard to go on a direct line to the pin. Obviously, we're not talking about rushing into a burning building to save a little girl's life or anything. But the word just as obviously has a sporting connotation which makes its usage appropriate.

Same thing applies to the word "fear". I'm "afraid" of hitting a shot into a deep bunker, therefore I "fear" the possible outcome of a shot on the tee. I'm more afraid of hitting a shot into a deep bunker than I am into a shallow one. Etc. etc. Are you saying that you're immune to such "fears"? Surely you've been afraid of hitting your tee shot on RDGC #2 left or right of the green before, no? So you hit one club less to lessen the risk of those penalties. If you'd rather talk about "risks and rewards" than "fear and bravery", go right ahead - but don't call us silly for using the accepted vernacular.

(My own personal pet peeve is the commentator's use of the word "perfect" to describe approach shots which do not finish in the hole, but that's a separate topic.)

Tom and Dan, I'm sure Doctor Katz has a special remedy for guys who are tempted to use acronyms for international military/political treaties in a golfing context...I just hope he spots this thread before it's too late!

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

Dan:  if all Rich is asking is "do you have fear on a golf shot equal to the fear you feel when your children are in peril" then this is a pretty short conversation, wouldn't you say?

Rich said he gets fear in competitive rounds...

I find fear in that, AND on great courses in one-shot deals....

So what is the question here then?

I thought I had answered his real question - which is, can we analyze a golf hole that we play casually (which he equates to non-competitively, ie in a bounce game).

My answer to that is yes.  I felt real fear on the greatest of all golf holes, at NGLA, at Sand Hills...  So yes, I believe I can say I understand how a hole plays under real pressure.  The pressure I felt on 16 tee at Cypress was as real to me as any pressure I've felt in any other life situation, at that time, in that place.  I wasn't playing for my livelihood, so obviously my fear was less than a pro feels trying to make a cut to feed his family, but it was real to me nevertheless.

Is that better?

TH

[TEPaul]

Rich:

This is a really great question!

Whatever I have to say about it I would like to eventually try to prove that ultimately it probably does have some kind of real effect on golf course architecture itself!

But the "Fear Factor" is very real--and I would say with almost every single golfer. Some might say it isn't but I would challenge those who say that to explain to me if and when they've ever actually tested themselves in that regard.

The fear factor can be as elemental as fearing embarrasment! But on other levels it definitely is very much "result" oriented obviously combined with personal fears of failure!

I think most of it on a higher level of golf and competitive golf certainly is beautifully encapsulated in Bob Jones's famous remark, "There's golf and then there's tournament golf!"

A truer statement about competitive golf was never spoken. Without fail I've seen almost everyone who's tried to transition from recreational golf to real tournament golf have their normal game completely effected by the transition, certainly at first. Some have never really learned to deal with it, in my opinion.

I feel all of that is truly related to the "fear factor" is some very real way. Golfers, no matter who they are if they play competitively have real adjustments to make in what could be called "comfort levels". Some golfers just can't transition to the next "level" and maintain their comfort and confidence they had so much of at the lower level.

God knows all the reasons for it--self worth, competitive zeal and maturity or lack of it, all kinds of things obviously between the ears!

I really don't think golfers who only have played recreationally can possibly imagine what it's like--the difference--unless they try it--I know I didn't. And even doing it, it's pretty clear to me that the only way to really deal with it is to do it over and over again so many times that it becomes almost rote and of course having any kind of success with your expectations can really start to take care of the "fear factor".

But it sure is real and can have a true negative effect on anyone's game at any time.

I can only imagine what it would be like to be playing for the US amateur championship or to be in contention in an Open but at my level now, after not having played much competitively for a few years doing something like standing on the first hole at PVGC in the first of two days of stroke play qualifying can be nerve racking with enough fear factor. That's the kind of hole where your weekend can go up in smoke in a heartbeat, right out of the box, and is why I've always played that approach shot as conservatively as possible.

To me, even at a quite high level, match play tournament golf is about ten times more relaxing than stroke play tournament golf with far less of a "fear factor".

I'm sure even a guy like Woods has elements of a fear factor and probably even a fear of embarrasment somewhere on his level!

Golfers can say things like what is there to fear really, it's nothing like the fear of going fifty mph on the English channel in a gale with my daughters with me? And they can hope that that kind of rationalization will work for them to completely alleviate their "fear factor" in some competitive situtation! But guess what, it isn't going to work! They're entirely different kinds of "fear", in my opinion!

I'm beginning to think too that fixation on "handicapping" and the gross score posting procedure probably translated to increased fear to many golfers and actually does filter down to architecture itself because of that!

But for the "Fear factor" at a very high level this is the incident that I really love.

At the last Open at Merion Hal Sutton (current US Am champ) was paried with Jack Nicklaus (Open champ) in the first round and they teed off from the famous back tee next to the porch! Sutton just nailed one right down the middle and so did Nicklaus!

On the walk out to the ball Sutton was heard to say: "Mr Nicklaus, I've played a lot of competitive golf but never in my life did I think I could be that nervous and that scared!" And Nicklaus said to him; "Hal, I was nervous too, it's just that I'm used to it now since I've done it a 1000 times!"

But it's a super question to ask on here, Rich--particularly how it might filter down to golf architecture!

[Allan Long]

I disagree with one thing. The thought that for fear to be real
it has to have some dire consequence is fine in a perfect world, but as we know, golf is not a perfect game. Everyone has different circumstances that may cause them fear. What
may bother me may not affect someone else. Fear on the course comes from not being comfortable with a certain circumstance or situation. Dave is correct, fear is related to the thought of failure. Is golf life and death, no. But when we are put in a situation, say a tournament round at a critical point, it is only natural to feel something other than a calm presence. When I just starting out playing tournament golf many moons ago, fear crept in. As long has one has a pulse, and the outcome of a shot means something to them, real or imagined, fear will exist.  

[THuckaby2]

Darren:  I didn't make up NATO as it applies to golf.  I read it in a golf book.... damn, can't place it now... it was the guy who worked with DLIII and Michael Jordan at North Carolina...

It would have been a worthy addition to your book also... it was what you were trying to achieve with your golf game, was it not?

TH

[Dan Kelly]

I felt real fear on the greatest of all golf holes, at NGLA, at Sand Hills...  So yes, I believe I can say I understand how a hole plays under real pressure.  The pressure I felt on 16 tee at Cypress was as real to me as any pressure I've felt in any other life situation, at that time, in that place.  I wasn't playing for my livelihood, so obviously my fear was less than a pro feels trying to make a cut to feed his family, but it was real to me nevertheless.

Is that better?

TH

Much!

[THuckaby2]

GREAT thoughts by TEP (and everyone else on this thread) - TEP's idea was what I was trying to get at and struggling so mightily with - thanks, Tom!  I have indeed played a lot of competitive golf in my life and the fear is real, no doubt about it, just as Tom says and Rich does also.  And yes, we all have our levels... the fear at my club championship or sectional qualifier is as real to me as Hal & Jack's is to them at Merion.  It never goes away and the guys who conqer it get a name:  champion.

Now how it applies to architecture... I believe we need more fleshing out re that.  All I'm getting re this is we need to have a sense of how a hole plays under intense pressure to really get a sense of the worth of the golf hole... but given we all have our levels of pressure/fear we feel, what are we missing?  I know I'd feel as nervous on the 1st tee at Merion as Jack and Hal did... for totally different reasons.... or am I fooling myself?

TH

[Dan Kelly]

My wife's particular pet peeve is hearing a commentator use the word "bravery" to describe a soccer player's diving header or a golfer's flirting with a water hazard to go on a direct line to the pin.

I'm with your wife.

I trust you don't make a habit of telling her that she's overreacting!

[D. Kilfara]

Personally, I live my entire golfing life in some state of "fear". Even in my casual rounds there's no such thing as a shot I don't care about, so I wind up feeling some fear all the time. Among the factors which can add to that sense of fear:

--Playing a great golf hole
--Playing a golf hole with severe hazards of some sort
--Playing any hole on a course I might not get to play again any time soon
--Playing in a tournament
--Playing in a casual match with friends that I want to win
--Playing a shot similar to one on the same hole I screwed up at any point in the past twenty-six years
--Playing with someone I'd like to impress
--Playing a shot when I know my swing isn't up to the challenge (and therefore luck becomes more important than skill)
--Playing a shot when I know my swing should be up to the challenge (and therefore I know I have no excuse to screw it up)

Etcetera, etcetera...

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

THANK YOU DAN KELLY!

That was driving me nuts.  Bob Rotella it was.  I didn't get all that much out of his books, but NATO stuck with me, obviously!

And Darren, wasn't the point of your book that you were trying to get to a point where you didn't care about scores so much?  I know, Rome wasn't built in a day and this is very difficult to achieve, but your post here is gonna disappoint your fans.  

Of course it impresses me - it shows how "human" you are.  Pretty cool to admit to how all those things affect your golf.  I'd say most people feel the same way, whether they admit it or not... that is if they "care" about golf at all.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Yikes... Dick Coop was indeed the teacher of DLIII and Jordan I was thinking of... and he wrote some great books also, didn't he?  Now I'm not sure who coined the NATO term, he or Rotella... off to search....

TH

[D. Kilfara]

I'm with your wife.

I trust you don't make a habit of telling her that she's overreacting!

I'm comfortable enough around my wife that I do indeed make a habit of telling her she's overreacting! Unless the commentator in question is using the word in a situation where it doesn't really apply, as happens all too often these days. Do you remember the days when people paid to speak the English language on television used to know how? I do...

And yet, I digress.

Cheers,
Darren

[Allan Long]

Tom,

Dan and I crossed in cyberspace, and you caught my Coop
response before I could remove it. Man, you're fast.  

AL

[THuckaby2]

Allan - when I get into these threads I REALLY get into them!  

I still can't figure out for sure who it is.... it may well be Koop!

TH

[D. Kilfara]

And Darren, wasn't the point of your book that you were trying to get to a point where you didn't care about scores so much?  I know, Rome wasn't built in a day and this is very difficult to achieve, but your post here is gonna disappoint your fans.  

Of course it impresses me - it shows how "human" you are.  Pretty cool to admit to how all those things affect your golf.  I'd say most people feel the same way, whether they admit it or not... that is if they "care" about golf at all.

Yeah, well, like all recovering addicts, some days are better than others. In all seriousness, I'm not as bad as I used to be, back in the day when I cared so much about my score that fear of failure too often inexorably led to anger at failure. But you know, I've always thought that if you don't worry at all about failure, what's the point of trying to succeed?

Cheers,
Darren

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()