[TEPaul]

famous, considered great and respected?

I've often wondered what it is about some of the holes of this world that began as extremely controversial but have somehow morphed into a perception of being unique, famous, great etc.

Holes like TOC's #17, considered one of the great par 4s in the world (once a par 5), despite the fact most people say it never could and never would be built again.

Are we missing something, misreading something? How can holes go from one extreme to the other? Is there any kind of idenifiable thread that could be a reason for this kind of thing? Is it generally just the uniqueness of them that makes this happen? Or is it difficulty? Why wouldn't they be considered too hard or unfair though as some people might feel about other holes.

Or even what are some holes that are considered too hard or too unfair? Maybe even those ones are on their way from controversial to greatness?

[Justin_Zook]

Didn't the Scots mostly play Match Play?  

The 17th at TOC, lends itself as one of the greatest holes in the world, not only in general, but specifically for match play.  Just think of all the things that could happen, and have happened because of the bunker, or because of the road.  You can play long and left, or short and right, and still make par.  Bobby Jones once said about Augusta, that its the type of course that every hole there can be birdied if you think, but each one will be bogied if you don't.  While birdie isn't really a necessity for most players, at the 17th, it still can be played with Bobby Jone's philosophy in mind, in that if you think, you still should be able to make par.  

This is why I love the hole so much.  I hope one day I will be able to see it in person, or even play it!!!

[Justin_Zook]

and just thought of something walking up from the dining hall:  If you do get in the Road Hole Bunker, and complain about it, all you can do is wonder why you didn't play short and right???  So you learn something about yourself.  You have all that room in the front of the green, on the approach, but instead you chose to risk it, and you failed, its yoru own fault!  

I think thats cool!

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEPaul,
Certain holes have no "givens" from the time a player steps on the tee until they have holed out.
The Road Hole, although presently assigned the number 4, has no real "par".
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that players walk to the 18th tee in a satisfactory mood after carding 6s, 7s or 8s.
I also wouldn't be surprised to hear that several birdies occur there every day.

It's probably also partially due to word of mouth. A player complains a hole is worthless and hard, another player says, "no, it's a good hole, even I had a birdie there last week". The complainer tries the hole again, sees what his friend saw in the hole, and sure enough he becomes a convert. Possibly another part of the reason the hole was able to make the transition is that players of widely varying abilities accept it. Pretty soon the controversy subsides and another "great" hole is born.
  

[Doug Siebert]

I'd be quite surprised if there were several birdies a day on that hole.  When I was there last year, I stayed at the Rusacks (if you follow the crosswalk across 1/18 fairway you walk right into it)  Since I had plenty of spare time during the day when not golfing, one of the things I did on a couple occasions was to stand on the road behind the 17th green and watch people come in.  I probably saw at least 50 players come in, and never saw a birdie.  I never even saw anyone with a makeable putt, though several did roll onto the front right of the green with what I believe was their second shot.  I also watched them tee off, and some of them were pretty good players, judging by their swings and results off 18 tee.  I also saw a group of members, one of them sliced it into the street and bounced off a car back into play.  As if he wasn't already lucky enough being a member of that course!

Perhaps a more favorable wind blowing into the player's face or some rain to soften the green to whatever extent is possible might help, but that'd also take the hole out of reach for more golfers.

It is truly unique to wake up in the morning, and look out your window and see the first tee and 18th green of the Old Course.  If I ever hit a $50 million lottery jackpot, I'm going to buy that room so I can stay there any time I like

[Jim_Kennedy]

Doug,
I wouldn't quibble with the birdie count of your single days observation, maybe there are more birdies on Thursdays , so let's just say there are birdies and there are 8's on the hole.  Wide score differentials can be good identifiers of great holes. This is something Tom has talked about in the past and it might apply to the present post as well.

[Doug Siebert]

Well actually I was there for five days, so the observations were spread over several days  Of course I wasn't suggesting my sample size was statistically significant, but since TOC is such a big name you get golfers of all abilities playing it, but those who aren't a single digit handicap would be quite hard pressed to birdie that hole even on a nice day, let alone a brutal one.

But going back on topic, I somehow doubt the Road Hole was ever controversial.  The only people who would complain about it would be spoiled Americans used to taking drops off cart paths and thinking the tee should have been moved once the hotel was built!  By that time its place in golf had been secure for ages.

I'd suggest Prestwick might have been more controversial back in its day, since it appears to me to be one of the oldest (if not the oldest) course that was "designed".  I'm not saying I don't think its wonderful, but there's no way the green complex on 17, for instance, is natural.  I have wondered before if it wasn't the first design to move earth.  If not, whichever one was was probably quite controversial in its day, given the way the game was played then.

[TEPaul]

Doug:

Apparently TOC, or sections of it, is given credit for being the very first "architectural expression"--that is "man-made" application of any kind in what had been basically natural golf.

C&W credit Alan Robertson with doing this with TOC primarily when he technically "widened" it. But of an architectural feature that may have been the very first "architectural" feature or expression some think the "Road Hole" may have been one of the very first--perhaps the green somehow and some think the Road Hole bunker itself!

And even if technically it may not have been the very first example it seems to be the most notable and the one that got the most general attention as it began to first transition from wholly natural golf to some early applications of "architecture"--man-made additions!

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