[Kevin Edwards]

Played Stone Harbor a few years back and was mystified by Desmond Muirhead..  In a funny sort of way I thought the island bunkers were pretty cool although it would not only make the traditionalist lament, it would make them insane.

But what I also remember about Muirhead and Stone Harbor were the elevated tee boxes.  I also read an article where Muirhead said that the american male has had his feelings of power usurped since WW II and he was trying to give them back some of this power thru elevated tees and downhill holes.

Then it hit me like a diamond bullet, I do love the feeling of power on elevated tees and especially on downhill holes.. I feel like I can swing out of my shoes.. Was Muirhead onto something here?  How come golf has not evolved from an evolutionary basis from a Darwinian basis.. Desmond seemed to be keen on this.

I realize any serious architect might hold him in contempt, but he certainly was interesting.

[Jordan Wall]

Jack Nicklaus was always a big fan of downhill holes.  He always liked being able to see the hole off the tee.  Is this good or bad?  Me thinks a little bit of both.

I agree downhill holes are fun bot too many downhill holes can result in lack of variety, and if downhill holes are forced then the best holes probably are not going on to the property.  At Castle Pine's, Jack built some cool downhill hole's (the 1st tee is so cool) but also some good and challenging uphill holes as well (#17 is great for the end of a match, especially in Stableford).  If you are forced to fit downhill holes into a design, then that is not good, but when you get the right type of property downhill holes are very fun to play.  

[redanman]

I've always preferred uphill to downhill holes.  

To me they are better done with more thought.  There is more uncertainty; it takes more guts from an architect to build an uphill hole instead of a cart ride to another downhill hole these days and that comment about empowering americans make me nauseated, like american males need more empowerment. (Is it time to invade Iran, yet?)

At home club Lehigh CC (In the "my home course" section):

* uphill holes that are really good: 2, 4(second shot), 8, 14!, 17 (second shot)

*downhill holes: 4 tee (so-so, but pretty), 7 (quite a visual, most first-timers say "wow!"), 11 (Mark Fine and I disagree more about this than any other hole, but the downhill shot is a beautiful view)

.... so, I give Flynn credit.  He built more and better uphill than downhill holes and shots at LCC.  Someone like Nicklaus (and others, but he's fair game as he's already mentioned) would have built more downhill shots in my estimation.

Power to the american male!

[Tom_Doak]

The first time I met with Jack Nicklaus re: Sebonack, he had counted how many uphill shots there were on my routing vs. the last one they had done, and mentioned the fact there were more; but he admitted that maybe the routing was better and we could deal with the visibility issues.  Visibility is a very big deal to Jack.

When we were building the course, I was going to put some fill for the back tee on #14 which is down in a corner of the property, but Jack said not to bother ... it was an uphill tee shot anyway, it might as well be really uphill.

[Bob_Huntley]

I've always preferred uphill to downhill holes.  

Bill,

Play Tehama and tell me you still feel that way.

Bob

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom: I always liked Jack as a golfer (and, from what I could tell) as a person; the more stories you share about working on Sebonac, the more I like him as an architect too.

Kevin: Desmond was clearly on to something; in fact, I think he pegged the main reason why we have so many 7,200 yard resort/high-end public courses, and so many people willing to pay too much to play them.  

Elevated tees/downhill shots obviously make a big difference. I play a newer course from the 7,000 yd tees - which should be too much for me - and score well; I play a mom-and-pop course from the 1950s at 6,500 yds and get murdered. That's the  elevated tees for you.

I think lots of owners have realized that if they're planning to charge a lot of money for a round, the best way to jusitify it is to make the course over 7,000 yards but have a lot of elevated tees. Most male egos will remember the 7,000+ yards part, and forget about the elevated tees.

It doesn't often make for the most interesting golf, but it can be pretty.

Peter

   

[redanman]

I've always preferred uphill to downhill holes.  

Bill,
Play Tehama and tell me you still feel that way.
Bob

Uncle Bob

So far I've missed that one.  

Looking forward to seeing you next month.

Bill

[Forrest Richardson]

Muirhead was responding to the primal instinct of humans. Being on top of a promontory is a comforting place as it allows view of danger. Man was hunted in prehistoric times. The hilltop was a place where he/she could see in all directions. In golf, the elevated tee is a placeholder for such a refuge.

Conversely, the lower land or blind is a placeholder for the vulnerble position of potentially being hunted. The lower perspective is one which causes heart rates to increase when facing danger or choice.

In my work consulting on zoological parks and exhibits it was phrases this way:

When you have a species on exhibit that is supposed to bring about some fear to man — let's say a tiger — the idea is to position the visitor below the animal. This places the visitor in the most vulnerable position...and it intensifies the natural relationship which makes the tiger a feared species. The elevates perch for the visitor — for viewing a tiger — elevates man about the species...which is an unnatural relationship.

I recommend anyone interested in such things study environmental psychology. There sre some decent text books that cover the basics of our relationship to the environment/architecture. In Routing the Golf Course Dr. Ed Sadalla writes a great chapter about elevated tees, water, first tees, etc.

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