[Jordan Wall]

Does a great green make up for a mediocre hole, at least strategically.  Maybe this will make more sense.  
Would an otherwise maediocre hole be made a good hole with a great green??

OR...

Would a greatly designed hole be ruined by a horrible green??  A flat green, with no character, or a green complex being boring...?

[Kyle Harris]

IMHO, a great green typically means a great hole.  

[Tom_Doak]

Jordan:

Even a great green won't make up for a hole with a stream going right across the middle of the fairway in the wrong place, or a fairway that's on too much of a sidehill.  But, a great green on just boring ground will usually produce a very good hole.

Likewise, a flattish green on a great hole is fine on occasion [see Bethpage Black], but if the green is horrible because of too much slope, no fairway strategy can fix that.

[Kevin Pallier]

Greens and their surrounds complete the hole so to speak IMO. As such, a good hole can be made better by a great green complex eg: 14th at Dornoch or similarly turn an average hole into a better one 16th at Nth Berwick.

Then again, an average greensite only makes a poorly designed hole even worse and there's too many exmples of that eg: many of Australia's resort courses.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Jordan,

Could you cite an example of a great green on an otherwise mediocre hole ?

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

Could you cite an example of a great green on an otherwise mediocre hole ?

Sandpines #1, and #11.

Great greens at Kapalua but no hole was mediocre there!!

[Jay Flemma]

Tom makes good points, but I'll throw out winged foot which makes the grade with great greens changing everything about mundane hole shapes.  Pinehurst No. 2 too.

Bethpage  is just the opposite and also works...great holes and routing, but flat mundane greens...

[Chris Kane]

Patrick, #9 at Metropolitan is a shocking hole, with one of the worst tee shots you'll find in Melbourne.  It also has the best green complex on the course.

[ed_getka]

It depends on what you most enjoy in golf courses IMO. I really like cool greens, so if a course has great greens I am going to tend to like it. So I would say yes great greens can make up for mediocre holes to an extent.
   Lost Dunes is a great example of a course with great greens that I will encourage people to go see just because the greens are so cool. There are some mediocre holes, but because of those greens it becomes a very good course. Not every green is great there, but enough cool greens with some very good holes to make you want to go back again and again.
   Crystal Downs #10 and #16 are rather mediocre holes that have better than average greens. #10 is a straightaway par 4 from an elevated tee to a flat fairway and then the green rises up from fairway level to provide quite a test on the approach shot. #16 is a long par 5 that forms a crescent that gradually arcs around to the left. There are no hazards until you get up near the green, except the rough. The first two shots of this hole don't require you to do anything but advance your ball down the fairway to set up your third shot. Obviously hugging the left side will help gain some advantage but the arc is so gradual that any gain would be minimal. Then you come to your approach shot and depending on where the pin is you can have your hands full. You put flat, boring greens on either of those holes and they would certainly detract from your opinion of the course. CD is one of my favorites because it has some wonderful greens throughout.
   So yes, great greens can make up for mediocre holes IMO.

[Sean_A]

Tom makes good points, but I'll throw out winged foot which makes the grade with great greens changing everything about mundane hole shapes.  Pinehurst No. 2 too.

Bethpage  is just the opposite and also works...great holes and routing, but flat mundane greens...

Jay

I agree about The Deuce.  A good course possibly made great by the greens.  Without those greens I think The Deuce is in the same class more or less as Mid Pines.  I found the tee to green play at these two courses quite similar.  

Ciao

Sean

[Mark_F]

Jordan,

I don't buy that a great green automatically makes a good/very good hole.

If it's played over boring ground, it's a unexciting hole with a great green.  So what.

Case in point: Barnbougle Dunes, hole number two.  Good green, crap hole.

Case in point number two: Barnbougle Dunes, hole number ten.  Great green, still a very uninteresting, uninspiring drive. Half a hole at best.

Case in point number three: National Moonah, hole number two.  Great green, first two shots are insipid, with a blind bunker from the tee that even isn't in play most of the time.

Case in point number four: National Moonah, hole number ten. Great green, but if it wasn't for the windmill halfway down the fairway, you'd demand your green fee back.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Jordan,
An interesting point.
A great green can often redeem a hole with a featureless fairway on a Par 3 but not on a Par 5.
While watching Augusta  it struck me, at least from my screen, that the 12th hole has an interesting green complex, including Rae’s Creek, but the fairway appears to just be a wide expanse of very homogeneous cut grass of the same green hue– except for Sabatinis DZ.
A case of interesting green, boring fairway.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Jordan,
An interesting point.
A great green can often redeem a hole with a featureless fairway on a Par 3 but not on a Par 5.
While watching Augusta  it struck me, at least from my screen, that the 12th hole has an interesting green complex, including Rae’s Creek, but the fairway appears to just be a wide expanse of very homogeneous cut grass of the same green hue– except for Sabatinis DZ.
A case of interesting green, boring fairway.

John,

# 12 at ANGC is a completely aerial hole, and as such the fairway is immaterial to the approach/tee shot.

The fairway becomes material from the perspective of balls hit into the water and the rules governing the competitors options relating to taking a drop.
[/color]

Jordan Wall,

# 1 at Sandpines a great green ?

# 11 at Sandpines a mediocre hole ?
If the 11th green was dead flat it would still be a very interesting and good hole, especially with that skyline green and bunkering.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Patrick
A very interesting comment – what you are saying is that the fairway at Nr. 12 ANGC develops it’s strategic value after the ball falls into the water – allowing the player the to drop his ball anywhere in a straight line between the tee and where the ball crossed the water boundary.
Or the dropping zone.
Faldo chose the short distance successfully and Sabatini chose the DZ disastrously – like watching the Titanic go slowly under.

[Jordan Wall]

Pat,

#1 was a good green, with two tiers and a great green complex which rebounded shots that were not hit well. Once you were on the green it was no bargain either.  I three putted that hole happily from the top tier to the bottom, and if you are happy with a three putt then there is probably something to be said about the green.

#11, I felt, was not a great hole, even though it was a skyline green.  The fake mounds and dumb bunkering did me in.
 
It did, however, have a great three tiered green.  Maybe I dont think it is necassarily a bad hole, but rather a mediocre hole that had a potential to be much better.

[Mike Hendren]

The 16th at North Berwick West Links

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

A very interesting comment – what you are saying is that the fairway at Nr. 12 ANGC develops it’s strategic value after the ball falls into the water – allowing the player the to drop his ball anywhere in a straight line between the tee and where the ball crossed the water boundary.

Or the dropping zone.

Faldo chose the short distance successfully and Sabatini chose the DZ disastrously – like watching the Titanic go slowly under.

John,

The drop is at the point of entry, keeping that point and the hole on a direct line back as far as the golfer wants.

The tee and/or line from the tee is immaterial.

Hence, if the hole was on the right side of the green and the golfer pulled his tee shot into the water, he'd have to angle toward # 11 green.

Conversely, with a hole location left, and a pushed tee shot into the water right, the drop would be on a line that goes toward # 13 fairway, so, there's a diverse drop zone.

Golfers have to establish the distance they feel most comfortable with, be it 10 or 100 yards from the point of entry.

Hence, the need for a wide fairway.


Jordan Wall,

How are the bunkers on # 11 dumb ?

How are the mounds fake ?

How do those mounds differ from the mounds at Garden City, Holllywood, Old Marsh, Boca Rio, Pumpkin Ridge or any other golf course ?[/color]

[Jordan Wall]

Pat,

We have been over this.

I dont feel like a Sandpines argument again.

I know the entire course is contrived, and while there are some good holes, #1 and #11 are simply mediocre with good greens.

Also, you know I have not played any of the courses you mentioned and while in time that may change Sanpines is pretty much the best example of a really mediocre course that I have.

Do you think a hole is made great by a green??  I sure dont, at least not always, hence the case for the holes pointed out at Sandpines.

[Kerry Gray]

Would Oakland Hills be another Ross work with great greens on an otherwise good course?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Pat,

We have been over this.

I dont feel like a Sandpines argument again.

When you make a statement that the bunkers are "dumb" and you're asked to define and defend that statement, you can't take the "fifth" or claim immunity.

How are the bunkers "dumb" ?

You shouldn't make a judgement that you're unwilling to debate or defend.

We're not here to accept your word as The Gospel[/color]

I know the entire course is contrived, and while there are some good holes, #1 and #11 are simply mediocre with good greens.

I think # 11 is an excellent hole.
I think # 1 is a fair hole.[/color]

Also, you know I have not played any of the courses you mentioned and while in time that may change Sanpines is pretty much the best example of a really mediocre course that I have.

Do you think a hole is made great by a green??  I sure dont, at least not always, hence the case for the holes pointed out at Sandpines.

I would offer Holes # 1 and # 6 at NGLA as exhibit A & B.

Yes, a hole can be made great by a green.

At 139 yards, downhill, the 6th at NGLA is spectacular.[/color]

[ed_getka]

Patrick,
   You are not following the rules. #1 at NGLA would still be a good hole without that off the charts cool green. You have to give an example of a MEDIOCRE hole with a great green.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Ed Getka,

Then I offer up Exhibit B, the 6th hole at NGLA.

[ed_getka]

Sure, sure, play the trump card.

[Jordan Wall]

Pat,

This is why I felt the bunkers at #11 were 'dumb'.

Every hole on every green there were bunkers on every side of every hole, or something like that.  Then I got to a high point on the property, a short par three, and there is the exact same thing--bunkers at the green.  Then I found out that originally it was a deep grass pit, but a new owner changed it to bunkers.  It was more or less, we need some variety here, and a great green was just wasted by boring repition amongst the course.  I dont mind bunkering on every hole, but all the bunkers were the same size, shape, height and everything so it made it really boring.  

Like I said though, #11 had a great green.

I dont know why #1 was so bad and boring other then the fact that it was meant to get the player started for a good round.  I feel there definitely could have been more challenge to the hole, but that is just me.  I thought the green was pretty good, maybe not absolutely perfect, but good nonetheless.

The hole at Sandpines I really enjoyed, though it still had the same bunkers on the green..... was #8, the long downhill par three.  Great green and a good hole!!

[ed_getka]

Jordan,
   Just out of curiosity, what is so great about #8 at SP? So far I know it is long and downhill. What is great about the green, and why is it a good hole?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()