[ash]

While surfing the web i happened across this very interesting site. As a lover of the game and those who shape it, im curious as to ommision of dick wilson from your "course by architect" list. With von hagge's boca rio on the list, surely his mentor wilson deserves credit for his early 60's work. cog hill, doral blue, and maybe best of all pinetree are courses who's bunkering deserve recognition on your list. Gentlemen, why is he overlooked in the history books?

[egundeck]

i couldn't agree more. ballen isles has been a favorite of mine for a long time.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Ash,

Ran does most if not all of the reviews on the site, however he encourages people to submit more under My Home Course. You will notice that the another Wilson, Hugh Wilson and Merion, is not listed either and certainly that course gets talked about on a frequent basis. Dubsdread is certainly a favorite of many of the Chicago people here, and if you run a search on Wilson or any of his more famous courses, I am sure you will find some.

I have only played 2 that I know of, Doral Blue Monster and Garrison here in NY. It was a long time ago, so I really can't say much.

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Ash,

My brushes with your topic make me think that many on this site believe Wilson was one of the architects whom helped usher in the dark ages of design when a lot of poor courses were designed, from the late 50's to today.  I believe Brad Klein considered Trent Jones Sr., Wilson and Joe Lee as the architects that started this trend.  They were responsible for putting out the flame of the golden age of design.  I would expect that they would also include von Hagge in that group as well.  

My guess is somewhat validated by what happened to the Blue Monster.  The renovation by Ray Floyd, another architect I can not think of (Ted McCanlis?), and the golf pro (Jim McClean?) whom I can not recall either, destroyed the original Wilson/von Hagge design.  It was a total destruction which would have consumed pages on this website if Wilson were respected here.  Although I am new to this site, I do not recall one thread about the disaster at Doral.  It was one of the major debacles of architecture and people should have gone to jail for it.

There are exceptions though, I think Pine Tree gets respect here, I am not certain about La Costa.  Also, von Hagge did some renovation at Scioto in Ohio, and that has been poorly received by Klein, so that got Bob in trouble with the people that frequent here.

It also did not help that Wilson was a difficult personality, an alcoholic.  He hated ASGCA, and Jones, and when the plaid jackets came by his sites he ran them off.  He also ran off Pete and Alice when they came out to survey a course he had under construction.  He did not help himself in that regard.  Of course, all of my knowledge is second hand, I was a very small boy when he died.

[BCrosby]

Dick Wilson's Mountainview course at Callaway Gardens is a very good course that has not gotten the credit it deserves.

With the demise of the PGA event there (this year was its last year) I fear the course will get even less attention in the future.

I've always agreed with Brad Klein that RTJ and J. Lee were largely responsible for the Dark Ages. They both built lots and lots of mediocre golf courses. Both seemed to make it a point NOT to follow Golden Age ideas. They marketed the fact that they were modern guys who built scientific, efficient, engineered golf courses. Not the artsy-fartsy stuff of their predecessors like MacKenzie, Ross or Thomas.

But Dick Wilson, I always thought, was a different kettle of fish. His courses that I know have aged remarkably well. I would love to play more of them.

He also sounds like a fascinating character. Sad maybe, but fascinating.

He does deserve more attention.

Ash -

Give us more details about what you think was lost at Doral. I don't remember the old course and have only seen the newer versions on TV.

Bob  

[SPDB*]

This is getting pretty close what many on here (i included) is a result of the bias that probably exists on this site. FULL STOP.

Not a huge fan of Wilson, it doesn't surprise me that Ran might not be rushing out to play his courses for purposes of a review. However, Meadow Brook (Wilson), which I think is a fantastic course, is reviewed on here, and quite positively, I might add.

[Keith Williams]

I was always under the impression that Joe Lee learned design from Dick Wilson and apprenticed under him.  Some of these posts make it sound like he worked totally separate.  It would be interesting to hear how their relationship actually existed.  I know a fair number of courses bear both of their names in design.

Keith.

[TEPaul]

I never knew Dick Wilson but my Dad sure did--they were  friends and I have to think some of the jobs Wilson got were directly related to those people who all knew each other--otherwise the coincidences would be far too great.

Dad lived in Delray for decades (Wilson lived in Delray--or neighboring Boynton Beach).

Dad was one of the group that started Pine Tree. He also belonged to Gulf Stream (Delray) and Seminole (North Palm Beach) and I have to think the redesign work Wilson did on those two courses had to be related.

Dad also belonged to Meadowbrook in Long Island, and actually where the course is now belonged to my mother's best friend (before she sold it to Meadowbrook G.C. which Wilson built). I have to think that was connected to those people in Delray almost all of whom also came from Long Island.

A number of those people (from LI and Fla) also had some very strong connections to the Islands and spent a lot of time out there! That had to be a connection for the island courses Wilson did.

Tommy Armour was part of this extended group in Delray too! Basically they all really liked Dick Wilson a lot, they were the ones who got him many of his jobs and they really enjoyed his golf courses, particularly Pine Tree. Wilson was like totally their main man.

And then Wilson died early and quite tragically and they sort of turned to Joe Lee for a while, Wilson's associate and later his partner. After Wilson died Lee took over basically Wilson's  business and his clientele.

They probably would have continued with Joe Lee too if it hadn't been for another guy who was coming up fast who also lived in Delray (neighboring Gulf Stream actually) and still does--Pete Dye.

And then Pete became totally their main man! But by then that group was getting older and so their interest and their participation sort of faded out.

Today I look at Wilson and his work not as an example of the worst of the modern Age AT ALL, but probably some of the very best of it!

I look at Wilson and some of his earlier work (Meadowbrook, Tequesta, Sea Island, Deepdale, Laurel Valley, Radnor Valley, Bidermann) as a real example of "transiton" architecture! Many really good vestiges of an earlier age (the Golden Age) combined with some of the early ideas of the upcoming Modern Age of architecture!

I think of Wilson as more of a "transition" architect than RTJ (who I think sort of just started after WW2 very much doing his own new thing--that really played into the quickly evolving and transitioning game in ways that really departed from Golden Age thought).

I think Wilson may even have been the only real "transition" architect--or certainly far and away the best example of that. I don't even know that he had any real competition in that niche but it makes me wonder about something I'll certainly never know though.

I have this gut feeling that if ever there was a natural "transition" archtiect it was going to be William Flynn, without question! But he died quite early in 1945 before the Modern Age began.

We can see so clearly now that he was founded in the Golden Age very definitely but as his career progressed and evolved he was moving away from some of the Golden Age thinking which he felt was "passe". He wrote about this, thank God, and we have it, and we can also see it in his work!

And of course we all know that Dick Wilson was a long time employee and protege of Flynn's!

There were a few others of those proteges of Flynn's like Red Lawrence and particularly William Gordon (another one whose later independent work after Flynn died, I'd consider very much "transition" architecture like Sunnybrook, Saucon and even White Manor).

I don't know Wilson's work all that well but better than I thought I did and my belief is his work was the best of the early modern age of architecture--better than RTJ, in my opinion.

You should all see Bidermann, for instance--a real example of "transition" architecture if I ever saw it! It's a wonderful golf course and apparently not changed at all except recently #17 & #18 by Gil Hanse to basically make room to expand the practice range.

Dick Wilson was good, but in my opinion his work in the 1950s was the best of his work--real interesting "transition" stuff from the Golden Age to the upcoming Modern Age of  architecture!

The interesting combination ground game and incipient aerial game features and design are all right there to still see what much of this "transiton" phase which I think was primarily him was all about!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I would agree with TE that Wilson was a transition architect. His early work in the 40's and 50's - courses like West Palm Beach, Elizabeth Manor, Deepdale, NCR and Meadowbrook - were more throwbacks in style. Undulating greens, interesting use of sand and very few water hazards. I wonder if the influence of Joe Lee and Bobby vonHagge took over after he was sick. I also think RTJ is a transition architect, his early work is very similar to Stanley Thompson.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

Tom P

Thanks for sharing your memories and insights.  A true 3*** post!  I'd love to see more analyses that show us that the "Dark Ages" perhaps had a little bit of light and creativity to them, after all, as one would expect.

ash

Thanks for starting this thread.  Only a "newbie" could hae done it!

[TEPaul]

Rich:

You're most welcome! It's my new mission to try to prove, if I can find documentary evidence particularly, that the "Dark Ages" really did have some light in it and to also prove that the "Golden Age" also had some darkness in it!

Call it Truth in Architecture, if you will! This is a campaign I feel certain you will subscribe to!

[TEPaul]

This is a great subject really and although it's about Dick Wilson, it would be instructive for us to mention what we feel are some of the overall differences in the architecture of the Golden Age, the Transition Era and the Modern Age of golf architecture.

My personal feeling is you can recognize Golden Age and Transition architecture as distinct from much of the Modern work by the fact that much of the "mid-bodies" of the older holes were just what it was. The architects would use many of the interchangeable architectural features on those "mid-bodies" like bunkering, mounds, whatnot but they rarely if ever shaped those "mid-bodies" like they do today.

It seems like they almost never did stuff like that unless they happened to be up against some "obstacle" that was preventing the hole from working. And of course, the primary reason was it was so hard to do back then. But I think it made those architects work a little harder to use the land they found as well as they could the way it was!

And of course it always looked more natural to me because it is natural!

[Craig_Rokke]

Very informative post, TEP. I've only played one Wilson course, Bedens Brook in N.J., which I thought was pretty good. My recollection is that some of the shot-to-shot angles
on his holes, especially the par 5's, were fairly bold, for lack of a better word.The greens had some interest, too.

The aformentioned White Manor is undergoing a total makeover, from what I understand, with Bobby Weed
basically starting from scratch.

[Mike_Cirba]

I've only played two of Wilson's courses...unfortunately didn't get to Pine Tree as they were topdressing when I was there last.  

The first is West Palm Beach CC in FL, which is a very sound design with raised greens and some interesting angles with lots of width.  It was built in 1947, and sort of launched his solo design career.

The other is Garrison GC in upstate NY, with gorgeous views of the Hudson River.  It's a very rolling property, which is fairly utilized and very demanding in stretches.  It was built in 1963 and shows more of a modern bent in his evolution, with narrower fairways, greater use of water and forced carries, and greater emphasis on length.  

Both courses, almost 20 years apart, give a good idea of trends in the game in that "transitional" time period.

[ian]

I met Joe Lee at Royal Montreal, he made it quite clear that the course was all him. He stated that Wilson was very ill at the time and had no involvement. I wonder if some of the later work was controlled by Von Hagge and Lee due to Wislon's health.

I thought I read Von Hagge had claimed Doral to be his just prior to Ray Floyd proving his that his knowledge of architecture is even worse than his personality.

I always thought Wilson to be a solid architect. I won't plan a trip around his work, but I find his courses are worth playing and usually well thought out. Everyone loves to jump on RTJ, but he did do some fine work too. Spyglass Hill to name one that I enjoyed. Did he treat golf design as a method to make scads of money? Yes. Were his courses bad? No. Repetative and plain, may be, but dark ages. Come on, there's been a lot worse than him!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Ben
A number of RTJ's course from the thirties look very much like Thompson. Some of those early courses were in Upstate NY - like Eastmand Durand, Amesterdam Muni, IBM and Lowell Thomas's private course - very bold Thompson-like bunkering and use of natural features. But the best example might be in Columbus - Winding Hollow (now Champions GC). Built in the 40's it was one of the best routed courses I've ever played and great fun like most of Thompson's. It is the most underrated course in Columbus and possibly all of Ohio.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ash,

I've always been surprised that Wilson's work hasn't gotten more acclaim, especially in light of his apprenticeship.

Could accessability to the clubs he designed in the early years
be part of the reason ?

Did he exist in the shadow of RTJ's prolific work ?

Are his courses, such as Doral, being so altered that nothing is left to praise ?

Kelly Blake Moran,

I couldn't agree with you more.  I was shocked at the lack of concern over the disfiguring of Doral.

How could the purists, the cognoscente, remain silent ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Kelly/Patrick;

If memory serves, the Ray Floyd disfiguring of Doral proceeded the creation of this website by a year or two.

Perhaps it served as Ran's inspiration?

[TEPaul]

It would certainly make sense that RTJ's early work looked like Stanley Thompson's since he was a young partner with Thompson.

If you want to see an interesting "transition" era course check out Meadowbrook G.C. in Long Island (Wilson-1955). It looks a lot more like the earlier era than the upcoming Modern Age designs but it's unusual architectural characteristic was some of the biggest greens I've ever seen in my life!

Think about that! If you're trying to combine both aerial (modern age) with ground game (earlier age) design (the "transition era) one clever way to go would be with really big green surfaces!

Anyone can imagine how that feature could work very well to combine the design function and the playability of either end of the spectrum (ground game and aerial game)!

The green surfaces of Meadowbrook aren't that complicated either--they're just enormous! But the additionally interesting aspect of those enormous greens is also the way many of them are shaped and angled--ie a bit more for the ground game option than the aerial one it would seem!

It used to take some real adjustment to play Meadowbrook too! It definitely forced you to consider the pin since the spectrum of reasonable club selections could get up near 5-6 or so! If someone just considered the distance to the middle of those greens and hit a good shot commensurate to that distance you could be looking at some unbelievabley lengthy putts!

I don't think greens that big really caught on though coming out of that time (the transition of the 1950s) and that makes Meadowbrook that much more unusual!

The only course I've seen with a few greens as big as Meadowbrook's was RTJ's London Hunt (Ontario 1962). But the curious thing with London Hunt was that as big as some of those greens are they were basically all designed and angled almost exclusively for the aerial option! Maybe that had something to do with the fact London Hunt was seven years later than Meadowbrook.

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

Ian Andrew,

Robert claimed the Blue Monster in terms of being the associate in the office assigned to the project.  I suspect he had a high level of involvement because the owner Alfred Kaskel commissioned Robert to design all the courses at Doral after Dick passed away.  My recollection is that the Blue Monster is the only course Wilson was involved in.  Also, Robert lived at Doral for a period of time that coincided with Jackie Gleason living there.  

So, Robert's claiming the Blue Monster does not exaggerate his involvement.  

I am confident Robert would have done a magnificent job restoring and modifying the Blue Monster because I walked the course with him on a few occasions making notes for what we were going to do.  It would have been proper and respectful to the original design.

Just for fun, the name Doral comes from the first names of the owner and his spouse, Doris and Alfred.

[TEPaul]

Interesting! And Doral does sound better than Risfred!

Wait a minute! How about Aldor? That would make one think about one of those prehistoric birds with a wingspan of about fifty yards! Not a bad thought really!

[redanman]

West Palm Beach is a course worth adding to your list if any of you are down So Fla way this winter.  No one I have ever sent there has been disappointed and at last reprt it was still a rare bargain.  Nice to see others mention it.

I got to play it quite a bit as it was one of the public access courses near me when I started playing this game, played high school matches and tone-a-mints there and it is probably the third hilliest course in Palm Beach County all of which make for pleasant memories, but the course actually still holds up.  Back to back par 5's to start because that's what the routing yielded, some interesting 3's, quite varied, a drivable par 4, well angled par 4's and an interesting back nine routing.

It gave me my first look at Wilson and made me a bit of a fan, several Wilsons available in Florida of course.

[ted janeczek]

tom paul: the only thing i can say is that i wish i had your pedigree. pine tree, gulfstream and seminole!! that about says it, i guess.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom MacWood,
Thanks for bringing up those Jones courses. I've played IBM, Amsterdam Muni and Quaker Hill(the Lowell Thomas property)  Another one in this same area is Wiltwyck in Kingston NY, built by Jones in 1923. They all have a distinctly different flavor from what many know as Jones and now I know why.

[TEPaul]

TedJ:

My Dad belonged to all those great courses, not me. I'm just a one course guy.

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