[John_McMillan]

Tom Doak's comment on Lytham in "The Confidential Guide" includes, "the perfect tournament finish - a supremely difficult 17th, where a leader might pile up a big score, followed by a birdieable 18th which places a premium on the perfect drive."

Obviously, Lytham meets the criteria.  How many others are there?  The Old Course has the difficult 17th part, and the birdieable 18th part, but with the width of the 18th fairway, I'm not sure it has a premium on the perfect drive.  

[GeoffreyChilds]

Pebble Beach

[Bob_Huntley]

Pebble Beach

[John_McMillan]

Dave -

In defining a perfect finish, I gave Doak's proposal.  Of course, you're free to disagree with that, if you like.  I assume that "TPC" refers to the Sawgrass course, though Pete Dye does seem to have patented that formula, and used it on all of his TPC designs.  Is there a reason you think Dye's formula is better than Doak's?

[BCrosby]

I like the theory, but examples in the US are rare. I don't think of the 18th at Pebble as a birdie hole. Ditto for the 18th at the TPC/Sawgrass.

In addition to Lytham and TOC in the UK -

 N. Berwick and Prestwick.

Both have hard 17ths and easy 18ths.

Bob

[BCrosby]

Also W. Gailes.

A killer 17th, a birdeable 18th.

Bob

[Mike_Cirba]

Going by Dave's definition, then Oakmont would seem to be the ticket.  

[Mike Benham]

BCrosby,

The 18th at Pebble is definetly a birdie hole, more so then any other venue that the USGA has used in recent memory (I'm sure someone will shoot that one down).  For the pro's, 3-wood in the fairway, medium-to-long iron layup to their exact yardage and a wedge to a relatively flat medium large green.  The USGA wouldn't allow it to get any easier then that (I'm not saying it is easy in the normal sense) as a finishing hole for their open championship.

Mike

[Matt_Ward]

Given Dave's definition -- you would be hard pressed to name a more exacting final three holes than the last three at TPC / Sawgrass.

The 18th is without doubt one of the most intimidating holes you can play. When they show the overhead camera angle up high above the 18th tee you shake even in your living room over the prospects.

As a runner-up I'd also mention the final three at Riviera. You have diversity in the pars and the 18th there never suffers fools kindly.

[Mike Benham]

On Doak's scale, Olympic Lake qualifies when you play the 17th as a demanding par 4.

The 18th at the last US Open, with the green speed and hole location problem, may not be viewed as a perfect birdie hole, but it does require an accurate tee shot, accurate 2nd shot, and if left in the proper position a birdie chance.

The redesign of the 18th in the past couple of years has flattened the green out considerably.  I haven't played it with the green speeds high but it does reduce the opportunity for 3-putts.

Mike

[John_McMillan]

Guys -

Don't forget that the formula adds "premium on the perfect drive" to the "difficult 17th, birdieable 18th" part.

I'm not sure why these are the components of Doak's formula - and perhaps he'll chip in at some point with his reasoning.  Presumably the pressure of playing a meaningful drive on the 18th tee is a part of the championship test.  Maybe the "birdieable" part increases the pressure component.  The 18th at Muirfield is a difficult hole, but the classic finish of Faldo's 5-iron to the middle of the green, and 2-putts are as easy on the nerves as any possible closing combination.  

[TomH]

How about 17 and 18 at Congressional?. Might get votes from Lehman and Els.

[CHrisB]

In my view, the only weakness of St. Andrews as a Open Championship course is that if a player stands on the 72nd tee with the lead, the tournament is almost certainly over (barring a Doug Sanders-like event).  Don't get me wrong--I absolutely LOVE that hole, but I'd love to see a tougher finish for a major championship.

I think the last hurdle to winning a tournament, especially a major, should be a high one, not a low one.  As a spectator, I love it when a guy has the championship within reach, maybe even can see the trophy sitting up there waiting for him, but has to hit some great shots to finish the job.  Add a chance for disaster, and that's my perfect tournament finish.

For me, it's Carnoustie.

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