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Evan_Green

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures)
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2006, 04:55:46 PM »
Courtesy of Sean Tully here are some interesting old pictures of Meadow Club:



#14 Circa 1927- a really neat looking hole - natural creek


#14 Circa approx 1990 - with artificial lake


#14 today with the artificial lake in front


---------------------------------------------------------



#5 Circa 1927


#5 Today - a dead ringer for the original
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 04:58:29 PM by Evan_Green »

Mike_DeVries

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures)
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2006, 10:07:42 PM »
I did have a question regarding the par 3, #14. Was there ever any talk of removing the pond there? As I mentioned in my first post, the member I played with said the pond was added in the 1970's, is this true? I wouldn't be surprised, as it doesnt look original.

Evan,

The Bon Tempe is a seasonal creek that flows through the golf course and it originally cut in front of the 14th green, with a jagged outline to the landform, caused, I presume, by erosion from the often violently heavy winter rains.  There were two other bunkers on the hole -- one cut into the front bank of the creek, directly in front of the green; and another off to the right, in the fairway, that would allow, very delicately, a run-up shot for the redanish hole.  Also, the original tee was directly behind the 5th green -- I hope to move the third (Sr.) tee back to that location in the future.

Mike

PS  The pond is used for irrigation and it is unlikely that it will be removed, due to the necessity for capacity for the dry summers and expense of city water.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 10:10:10 PM by Mike_DeVries »

Mike_DeVries

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures)
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2006, 10:19:47 PM »
Do you fellows sit around pubs in the winter there in Traverse City and discuss these methods? It is like you guys have a sort of artists guild or academy up there... ;) ;D 8)

Dick,

Of course we do!  Don't you know that Tom is making his posts at Sleder's while quaffing a few pints!   ;D  Or maybe it's the water! ;)

The methods aren't going to work everywhere, but it is very practical and can be very effectuve.

Mike

Mike_DeVries

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures)
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2006, 10:29:37 PM »
I saw this:



and thought of this:



Visually, not my cup of tea, that's all.

Mike

Bogey,

Each bunker is going to have a different appearance from a variety of angles.  There is more elevation to the landforms than what you see in the photo you picked, and it does look very regular in that shot.  I am interested in the opinion of those who have seen the work in person as to this issue.

The bunker style has been faithfully reproduced here, as you can see in some of the photos Sean has posted.  It is quite unusual, and unique for MacKenzie I believe, with some of the bunkers having very shallow "nibs" along the top edge of the bunker.

Cheers,

Mike

Joe Hancock

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2006, 10:36:10 PM »
Mike,

Now you're giving away trade secrets on the internet. I think it's high time for me to come to the office and empty the fridge of that Heineken. Even if you try to follow up your technique expose with an attempt at intelligent dialogue, I know it's the beer talking. And, RJ being from Wisconsin knows darn well there's no other way to survive winter in Traverse City than to drink...you don't need to let the rest of the world in on that secret either!!!!!

BTW...did you see on the news that they got 18" of snow over by Clare? That's why I live down south......

Joe

BBS
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

ed_getka

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2006, 10:49:33 PM »
Mike,
  Its not just the angle of the picture. This is what I was asking you about the other day. The difference IMO is that the edges are regularly irregular, as opposed to most of your other bunkers that were irregularly irregular.
   The bunkering between 13 and 15 is a VAST improvement over the trees that were there, so I hate to even quibble about bunker edges. I thought the bunker placement itself worked well from both directions.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mike_DeVries

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2006, 10:59:25 PM »
The difference IMO is that the edges are regularly irregular, as opposed to most of your other bunkers that were irregularly irregular.
   

Ed,

Maybe we need to quaff a few Guinness the next time I am out so I can understand better what you are talking about.   ;D

Mike

PS  Sorry we got cut short the other day.

ed_getka

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2006, 02:45:14 AM »
Mike,
   Sorry if that is confusing, those are terms we use in medicine to refer to heartbeats. Maybe it doesn't work so well for bunker edges. :)  
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Mike Benham

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2007, 12:10:19 AM »
With John K. on plane to Scotland, awaiting the wrath of Bill McBride (Bill - go easy on him, he owes me a can of Belhaven!), I thought I would bring up this Even Green thread from early 2006 with a photo from last weeks visit and Jonathan McCord hitting his shot on the par-4 first hole from about 160 yards. ;)

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Jonathan McCord

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2007, 12:45:50 AM »
hahahaha, I LOVE IT!

I may have made the hole look like a par 4, but its actually a par 5.   ;)  The Tour will have to remember to make the course play as a par 68 when the 2024 Marin Showdown at Meadow comes to town.  I would expect it to be a limited field event as well. :o ;D ;)

You can see Huckaby over my left shoulder, with his GCA bag in tow.  He hit an unbelievable shot that landed just over the front left bunker, rolled past the pin, and onto the lower front portion of the green.  I should have told him, the proper angle of approach is from the right side of the fairway. My fault!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 12:47:05 AM by Jonathan McCord »
"Read it, Roll it, Hole it."

Jonathan McCord

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2007, 12:51:52 AM »
Here are a few of my better photos from my time at Meadow Club.  It is a very special place and one that deserves its spot among the greatest courses in the country.

16th Green with Mt. Tamalpais behind.


13th Green


10th Green


8th Green


17th Green

« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 12:52:25 AM by Jonathan McCord »
"Read it, Roll it, Hole it."

Tom Huckaby

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2007, 03:03:24 PM »
You can see Huckaby over my left shoulder, with his GCA bag in tow.  He hit an unbelievable shot that landed just over the front left bunker, rolled past the pin, and onto the lower front portion of the green.  I should have told him, the proper angle of approach is from the right side of the fairway. My fault!

Oh I knew the proper angle of approach - that surely does not take the intelligence of Steve Pieracci.*  Hitting from the right fairway bunker though, well... the spirit was willing but the flesh was weak.  That is, I hit about a 50 yard pull out of the bunker.

The result I got from under that tree, over the bunker, across a steep hill likely ended up better anyway.  So who said course management matters?   ;)

TH

* our friend truly is a rocket scientist.  I now just need to play golf with a brain surgeon so I can really overdo the comic lines.  "Hey, it's ok, this IS rocket science."   ;D

PThomas

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2007, 03:06:14 PM »
looks terrific Jonathan, thanks for posting
197 played, only 3 to go!!

Mike Hendren

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2007, 03:43:43 PM »
Two words:  Desmond Muirhead.



Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2007, 11:50:14 PM »
Every now and then somebody posts a comment along the lines of "MacKenzie-style bunkers," but these pictures seem to me an indication of the variety of bunkers he designed and not similarity or stereotype.

It looks to me like the intent of these bunkers was to capture the genius of the place, to develop a bunker style that fit the locale.

What's also interesting to me is the notion that the style he captured might have been "maintenance dependent."

This valley gets a lot of rain, yes? Add to that the need / tendency to water green complexes more than surrounding countryside, certainly more than the "non-golf course" part of the terrain, and it's possible blending the course into the surrounding hillsides (whose natural color in California would be straw or brown, yes?) is a task of huge challenge.

(It would be interesting to know how much rain this valley received during the design and construction years.  Is it possible the area received rainfall amounts well below normal, low enough to tinge the entire property in sepia?)

The picture Mike H. calls out looks a lot different in sepia tones -- note how naturally (or for you skeptics, how much more naturally) the bunkers blend into or at least "reflect" the hillside.


Mark
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 12:57:25 AM by Mark Bourgeois »

Patrick Kiser

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2007, 01:34:34 AM »
I must be daft.  I had a great chance to get on this wonderful gem ... but didn't do it.

I'm kicking myself now for not doing it.  Stupid!

Maybe it's not too late.  I'm gonna work on it now.



Evan,

Thanks for the motivation.


Sean,

Where did you score those old pics?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 01:36:16 AM by Patrick Kiser »
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Rich Goodale

Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2007, 04:28:14 AM »
Every now and then somebody posts a comment along the lines of "MacKenzie-style bunkers," but these pictures seem to me an indication of the variety of bunkers he designed and not similarity or stereotype.

It looks to me like the intent of these bunkers was to capture the genius of the place, to develop a bunker style that fit the locale.

What's also interesting to me is the notion that the style he captured might have been "maintenance dependent."

This valley gets a lot of rain, yes? Add to that the need / tendency to water green complexes more than surrounding countryside, certainly more than the "non-golf course" part of the terrain, and it's possible blending the course into the surrounding hillsides (whose natural color in California would be straw or brown, yes?) is a task of huge challenge.

(It would be interesting to know how much rain this valley received during the design and construction years.  Is it possible the area received rainfall amounts well below normal, low enough to tinge the entire property in sepia?)

The picture Mike H. calls out looks a lot different in sepia tones -- note how naturally (or for you skeptics, how much more naturally) the bunkers blend into or at least "reflect" the hillside.


Mark

Looks more to me, Mark, like a Burial Ground for false teeth.

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Meadow Club (Pictures)
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2007, 09:56:07 AM »
It is very interesting to note that the original concept for the course was to be "the Old Course in America" with the broad mountain meadow bisected by the Bon Tempe creek, wide open fairways to allow golfers to choose their line of attack, and bunkers strewn about the course to thwart and reward certain angles into the large (6000-9500 square ft.) greens.  MacKenzie's first foray into N. American design was closely modeled on the virtues of the Old Course and must have been very interesting to play.


This is why the course deserves greater renown.  It was here and not at Augusta where MacKenzie created his revolutionary course based on the idea of an inland TOC.  The incredibly-huge greens, with multi-hole wide fairways necessary to provide the angles that opened up as a result of the wide variances in hole locations.

Too bad this aspect is thwarted by trees that line many fairways.  Tree removal would create an experience in the golf world with very, very few peers.  Along those corridors where some trees have been removed, the radical nature of the test emerges.

(As Mike notes, all in due time...)

Mark

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2007, 10:14:21 AM »
Another fascinating aspect of this course is MacKenzie's use of two landforms and one stream -- just three features -- in what appears to be a relatively circumscribed area, to create a routing that doesn't feel shoehorned or contrived in any way.  There is a  brilliant economy of design here.

On one landform, MacKenzie managed something like 10 greens and tees; on the other, something like another 9-10.

The stream plays brilliantly into the strategy of two holes in particular, the 7th and 16th.

So: the routing is fascinating.  Interestingly, what makes it interesting also holds it back a little: there are a number of holes where one plays from elevated tee, across a meadow, to an elevated green.  That feeling of repetition might dissolve if the fairways were returned to their original widths, widths it must be said of fantastical size -- and were this a public course, surely of "lawsuit-width."

Still, how MacKenzie managed to fit this course, using meadow, landforms, and stream, is really impressive.  I also liked how he worked out "connector" holes, and those may be my favorites on the course, in particular the 1st and 7th.  (The 7th deserves comparison with ANGC 13; in my book it's a far more likely "progenitor" to that hole than is Alwoodley 10!)

You also get to see MacKenzie's (first?) widespread use of "amphitheater" greens, a design he would make famous at Cypress Point and Augusta.  It would appear that when he came to this high meadow he managed to "work out" some perhaps partially-formed ideas he had in his creative mind, ideas he soon would put to use....

I was surprised to read Tom Doak's comments on the course in his guide, but perhaps Mike DeVries' excellent work puts paid to them.

This course I think must be considered a very important bridge in MacKenzie's North-American career, a transition between the type of work he did before versus what he did next.

Mark

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2007, 10:24:03 AM »
Okay, Mr. False Teeth, I think the green that Mike DeVries returned as closely as possible to original style and playing characteristics -- it had been transmogrified over the years by landslides -- the 3rd, illustrates MacKenzie's use of site-specific (and maintenance-dependent) bunkering to integrate something as artificial and manufactured as a golf course with the surrounding natural environment.

Check out this progression of pictures -- ideally, the course grasses would be of this mix of straw and green color, an impossibility I assume given the enormous amounts of water that course through this meadow.







Mark

Rich Goodale

Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2007, 12:17:59 PM »
Sorry, Mark

Don't see the pony yet.... :'(

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2007, 01:34:00 PM »
Okay Farnie, we get it, you think they're ugly.

Uninteresting! Enough about the result, how bout your big brain speculates why they were designed that way? Give us original intent.

Mark

Padraig Dooley

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2007, 01:58:42 PM »
I played the Meadow Club back in august for the first time since 1999 and was really impressed with the changes.
The hole that stood out in my mind the most was the 4th, great green tilt and fairway bunkering.
Plenty of more notable holes including the 7th, 15th, 16th and I really like the 18th as a finishing hole.

Slightly different style of bunkering to MacKenzie's other California clubs, but I thought they fitted in quite well.



There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

Bill_McBride

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2007, 04:56:32 PM »
The 7th deserves comparison with ANGC 13; in my book it's a far more likely "progenitor" to that hole than is Alwoodley 10!

I'm not sure you draw that conclusion.  It's the tilted fairway at #10 Alwoodley that lets you chase a tee shot far around the corner that most closely resembles #13 ANGC in my opinion.  The fairway at #7 Meadow Club is much flatter and bears little resemblance to Augusta's #13.  

At least that's my recollection.  I've been to both Meadow and Alwoodley but not Augusta.  :-\

Padraig Dooley

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Re:Meadow Club (Pictures) - New 1927 pics added
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2007, 05:39:45 PM »
I'd agree with Bill about the similarities between the 10th in Alwoodley and the 13th in Augusta, a right to left chaser off the 10th tee could follow the terrain and go a long way.

The 7th at the Meadow doesn't really call for that shot.

There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a yellow spot into the sun.
  - Pablo Picasso

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