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TEPaul

Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« on: February 14, 2006, 04:29:56 PM »
....and would you like to talk about it openly?

No!?

OK, would you like to talk about it secretly?

Yes!?

Fine, all of us on here know how to keep a secret. ;) Or maybe you'd also like to shout about it at the top of your lungs or maybe punch some people out too?

What's that? Did I hear you say the ASGCA frowns upon airing dirty architectural linen in public for the good of the entire cause?

OK, I understand the problem but come on fess up anyhow. Come on, come on, you can do it-----I'm tired of being a Mother Confessor, anyway, so come on fess up and get it out---once you let it all out it'll make you feel a lot better---I gaurantee it.

Nobody notices what's said on this website anyway so what's your problem?

What do you non-architect birds think the chances are of this thread hitting the 10th page in about a day and a half with a big goose egg for responses?

;)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 04:31:11 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2006, 05:02:54 PM »

What do you non-architect birds think the chances are of this thread hitting the 10th page in about a day and a half with a big goose egg for responses?

;)

Slim! ;)

Mike_Young

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2006, 05:04:52 PM »
TE,
I think it is very competitive but in most cases clean and fair....I only know of one architect plays dirty....a FL guy that slams everyone and will try to steal jobs anyway possible....
I think most have gone to smaller shops with less overhead and can make it on less.
You also have to know your market....I don't even try to go after a job that wants a JN or TF because we don't attract the same client.
Is that open enough?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 05:05:29 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark_Fine

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2006, 05:15:32 PM »
Tom,
I have found that there are a lot of good people in this business.  I've been very impressed and found most are willing to help you any way they can.  That said, it is very competitive but no more than any other business I have been in.
Mark

Mike Nuzzo

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2006, 05:15:51 PM »
It is harder to compete with Infiniti than Nicklaus.

I agree it is competitive, but I feel like I at least have a chance where I wouldn't if I were trying to build a nice car.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 05:16:31 PM by Mike Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Tom_Doak

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2006, 05:16:22 PM »
Tom:

I will second what Mike says.  Ten or fifteen years ago I heard several stories of underhanded competition ... ASGCA members openly stating that a non-member competitor was "unqualified" or worse.  But that never happened directly to me, as far as I know.

Over time, most of us realize that we are in some sort of niche, so the general competition subsides and we compete only within that niche ... and we tend to like the other people within our niche.  I would say that David Kidd and I are competitors and sometimes jealous of what the other is doing, but in a very friendly and open way, we discuss it with each other whenever we get together.  Coore and Crenshaw may be in a slightly different place in that niche, but I'm also friends with them, and I am probably the biggest benefactor of their decision to limit the number of projects they take on because I'm often seen as the next logical choice, so I'm never offended when they "beat" me for a project.

The most competitive situations I have heard of are between former associates, or between brothers, but I'm not naming any names there.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2006, 05:18:26 PM »
Mike Nuzzo is a good example of someone I've started to get to know and respect.  He was gracious enough to get a copy of our book and we have exchanged emails about possible cooperation.  We also both know a little something about the space industry since we both worked there at one time  ;)

Mike Nuzzo

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2006, 05:32:41 PM »
Mark,
Thank you.

The ASGCA is great way to learn from each other - or so I've heard... hard to get in...
Tom Doak has certainly done a lot to bring together groups to learn from each other as well.

This website does the same, I have contacted and spoke to many like minded individuals to learn from each other - Mark Fine included.

Also the approachability of many experienced individuals who have been most helpful - which also includes superintenedents.

Cheers
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 05:38:59 PM by Mike Nuzzo »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Ian Andrew

Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2006, 06:14:31 PM »
Tom,

The ASGCA is full of different types of architects. Some are very competitive, and your all well familiar with their names. I often think the rule you mention is for that group in particular. ;D

In general I found the group to be friendly and welcoming. Half of them lurk on here, and some would participate if it wasn't for the current tone. Too many here to preach and too few here to learn.

The younger members in particular like to talk about the latest Stranz, Coore, Doak, links golf, Raynor and MacDonald and are always trying to learn (even from each other).

I found Tom's Archipalozza to be a wonderful get together where ego's were parked so that a good conversation could be had about golf. As an unknown I was suprised to be welcomed equally with the other architects. I still talk to a number of particpants from the event even to this day.

I've also got to know a lot of young architects similar to myself who are trying to make a name for themselves. I think Mark, Mike (who have chimed in above) Art Schaupeter, among others are great guys with plenty of talent. Rather than compete, I look forward to seeing what they can do.

I'm competitive and have an ego (or I would not be a designer or running my own company), but I also love the artform too much not to enjoy when somebody creates a great course. Possibly I have an advantage of having my own little niche it makes me less competitive; or possibly I wake up about once a week in stunned amazement that I get paid to do what I love to do.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 06:21:17 PM by Ian Andrew »

TEPaul

Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2006, 08:40:10 PM »
Architects; Good posts, I'm impressed.

The next question is---why can't true amateur architects exist in this day and age as they did so successfully in the teens? I know what the reasons and the answer is (I think)---I'd just like to see what you all think and if we basically agree.

hint; One must understand where golf course architecture was in its evolution at any particular point in time. (that's not so easy to understand ;) ).

Mark_Fine

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2006, 08:50:39 PM »
Thanks Ian.  Let me give an example of how much class some people have in this business.  I received an email from Ian Andrew a few weeks ago informing me that a new project that we were both interviewing for was down to just the two of us.  Ian just wanted to let me know and wish me luck and he stated some very nice comments that I will keep between us.  That shows a lot of class and if he gets the project it will be tough for me to be disappointed.  I'll be the first one to congratulate him.  The other point I should make is that Ian and I were both recommended to this club by another very prominent architect on this site.  He didn't have to do that for us but he did.  That guy who you all know, is a real gentlemen and if I had half his talent I'd be thrilled.  

I will also state that numerous architects were more than willing to share their thoughts and perspectives with Forrest and I for our book.  Some of those interviews are included in chapter 9.  I also met Jeff Brauer for the first time this past week at the GIS and he is a real gentleman.  
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 08:52:08 PM by Mark_Fine »

Tom_Doak

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2006, 09:30:10 PM »
Tom P:  I don't know if it is true that amateur architects cannot exist in this day and age.  I think the primary reason they don't is that most everyone today wants to get paid!   :)

However it is generally true that the business is seen as more of a profession today, and if you're not a "professional" then there must be something lacking in you.  In fact that's exactly the impression ASGCA members sometimes used against non-members.

TEPaul

Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2006, 09:42:53 PM »
TomD:

Would you like me to list some of the reasons why I think some architects were dedicated amateurs back then? Then we can compare notes.

For some super extra bonus points would you mind telling us IF you are a member of the ASGCA YET and if not, why not?

Secondly, would you mind discussing what it might take to interest you in being a member of the ASGCA if you aren't planning to be at this time? Don't think most everyone who knows these types of things doesn't know you are definitely the most notable hold-out at this time (if you haven't or aren't considering joining).

This isn't some idle GOLFCLUBATLAS.com throw-away question. Depending on your answer---that is if you choose to answer it, I may call you tomorrow, about some THINGS to do with this.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 09:44:30 PM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2006, 10:03:03 PM »
Tom P:  I would love for you to list some of the reasons those guys were amateurs.  The primary reason for several of them was that they inherited a gazillion dollars and didn't need to be compensated as designers.

For my super extra bonus points, no, I have still never applied to become a member of the ASGCA.  Am I really the most notable holdout now?  Did Ben Crenshaw join?  Tom Weiskopf?  Davis Love?  They're all better known than I am.

The fundamental reason I haven't joined is because I've never been a joiner of much of anything.  I wasn't a frat boy, or a Boy Scout.  I prefer to deal with people on an individual basis.  I've also never needed to be a member of anything to validate my status; I was a capable designer way before they would have let me into the Society, and I still am.

There are a lot of professionals in the ASGCA whom I have great respect for, but I know there are still a few who resent me for some indiscretion or another, and who would want to be in an organization where people are shooting you dirty looks behind your back?  I do visit with many of the members of the Society, both in this forum and in private.  I think I could make the case that I'm as open about sharing ideas as anyone in the business, either with fellow professionals or with 14-year-old students.  And I've been as open as possible partly to dispel any notion that I'm a loner or a backstabber or any other nasty rumors which might spread about me.  There are a lot of guys who know it's not true.

However, if Alice Dye and Bill Coore told me I ought to become a member, I'd probably reconsider.

I would love to hear what you've got to tell me on Thursday or Friday, but I'm taking the day off tomorrow to spend with my lovely wife and my son and family.  Either way, I've got those super extra bonus points coming my way.  Which is nice.

Mike_Young

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2006, 10:10:39 PM »
TE,
It seems every time the letters ASGCA come up somebody tries to get someone agitated....
you can't expect Tom to answer those questions....
I think all of us that aren't members have had the "professional" thing used at least once.....but I am not going there....
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 10:10:53 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2006, 10:13:26 PM »
Tom,
Good answers...
congratulations on the bonus points
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Doug Siebert

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2006, 02:05:53 AM »
TEPaul,

Am I missing something or isn't it obvious that the reason there are no amateur designers now is due to cost and probably lack of engineering knowledge as well?  It costs a lot to build even a minimalist design, so who is going to risk that kind of investment on someone that doesn't necessarily know what they are doing?  Even (or perhaps most especially) when it is they themselves who are ultimately footing the bill?

Back in the day a guy with an eye for finding the course in the raw land could route it, hire a bunch of guys cheap for the small amount of earthmoving and other labor that was needed, and that was that.  Today you need to know about environmental regulations, drainage, irrigation, agronomy, etc.

If George Crump was reincarnated and given another piece of land like PV sits on, could he create another masterpiece today?  I'd say no, because even if he creates a truly sublime routing there is too much other stuff he'd have to know these days beyond the simple artistry of design.

But I'm not an architect, this is all just my impression mainly from what I've learned on GCA, so maybe I'm totally off base here!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 02:06:32 AM by Doug Siebert »
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2006, 07:34:41 AM »
Isn't Steve Wynn an "amateur" architect.  He is given a lot of credit for Shadow Creek (read the book).  

Mike_Young

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2006, 07:45:03 AM »
Mark,
I have an owner right now that claims to be the joint architect with me on his project.....it has taken 4 years so far and three times the cost..really expensive sandbox....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Brad Klein

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2006, 08:11:21 AM »
Two points not previously covered.

First, a lot of the decisions made about hiring come not from architects who bang heads against one another (for the most part, fairly and professionally among themselves) but from owners, and many of these grey-suit guys working for real estate developers are making safe, marketable choices based upon "amenitized lots," real estate frontage, and their perception of mass perception. That makes it very tough for newcomers or cutting edge designers to get established projects.

Second, I have great respect for the ASGCA, and esp. how under its previous executive director, Paul Fullmer. it worked to be inclusive and to reduce the longstanding friction and backstabbing that used to characterize the profession. Fullmer's successor, Chad Ritterbusch, has continued this important work. But the ASGCA is a litle bit different than the PGA of America and the GCSAA in that the ASGCA is a "Society," not a professional trade organization. It has no licensing or credentialing power, unlike those other two bodies. Membership is voluntary and the Society can set its own standards of membership. To be sure, the ASGCA is far more inclusive than it used to be, but it remains an interesting difference that it is not a professional trade association. Many owners and green chairman might think it is, but they are wrong.

By the way, among those who are not members of the ASGCA and seem to be doing fine have been (sorry if I have left anybody out, but I'm just being illustrative here): Ben Crenshaw, MIke DeVries, Tom Doak, Jim Engh, David Esler, Ron Forse, Davis Love III, Greg Norman, Ron Prichard, Mike Strantz, Tom Weiskopf. Mike Young).

 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 08:24:43 AM by Brad Klein »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2006, 08:18:10 AM »
Yes, its competitive.

Up until 2001, there were 600 or so courses built a year.  By that time, literally dozens of young associates formed low cost architectural businesses out of their homes, and there was enough work for everyone.  That year, Toro sent out over 300 catalogues to gca firms.

Now, there are 150 new courses being built, but still at least 297 gca firms.  The average gca will build a new course every two years statistically.  But there are no average gca's.  The top ten names have always commanded well over 50% of the new course market.  The other 287 gca's are fighting over the lower 75 courses, meaning on average, we will build a new course once every four years.  

Of course, the remodel market is still there, but I disagree with those hopeful souls who think it should "pick up" to take up the slack.  The same economic forces are working on existing course, squeezing the amount of money they can spend.  And when they do, Toro and Rainbird (rightfully in most cases) seem to get there first to sell them only a new irrigation system.  Even when a gca is needed, in many cases, the remodel is to fix infrastructure like greens resurfacing, new drainage and paths, etc.

Those numbers explain why fees are stagnant, and many more gca's are moving back to their houses to cut expenses.  I am actually surprised that more of us haven't given up.  I guess that's because golf course architecture experience doesn't exactly make us more marketable in the broader marketplace.  (read: I am unemployable after running my small, specialized business exactly how I wanted for the last 25 years)

I don't think ASGCA has anything to do with it.  Like the others, I have heard whispers that someone or another has used unfair tactics to get jobs.  We have only the rare ethics case brought before our group, and in most cases, its hard to say that the winning gca was unethical - just more aggressive or better positioned.

There are only a few bad apples in our profession.  Most of us genuinely like each other, and when we get together find we share more problems than we think.

As for Tom D becoming a member of ASGCA - I endorse it.  Of course, if you cut me, I bleed Ross Tartan red, blue and green.  I can't believe that Bill or Alice hasn't approached you.  I recall you saying Jack did at Sebonic.  Just how much higher a person would you have to listen too?  I wouldn't worry about talking behind your back.  I know some highly contentious candidates in the application process who have been quickly accepted at their first meeting.  However, the jury is still out on Ian! ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2006, 08:23:11 AM »
Brad says:

"[T]he ASGCA is a "Society," not a professional trade organization. It has no licensing or credentialing power, unlike those other two bodies. Membership is voluntary and the Society can set its own standards of membership. To be sure, the ASGCA is far more inclusive than it used to be, but it remains an interesting difference that it is not a professional trade association. Many owners and green chairman might think it is, but they are wrong."

Agreed, but confusion among lay people remains and will always be a major problem until the ASGCA decides whether it is a dog or a cat.

The ASGCA enjoys the benefits of being both a private association AND of being perceieved as an official licensing body. That is a very dangerous path. If they have gotten away with it the last couple of years, they have been very lucky. But lady luck can turn on you. It's not a good premise on which to run an organization.

Bob


Ian Andrew

Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2006, 08:26:44 AM »
Jeff,

It must be, they won't let me do my presentation anymore. ;D

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2006, 08:32:37 AM »
Bob,

That is a generalized broadside with absolutely no basis in fact that I am aware of.  Professional Organizations have existed (like AIA) for 100 years.  Nothing dangerous has come of them that I know of.  And you?  

Just for my information, what do you consider the difference between a professional society and a trade organization?  I think it is similar, except that certain professionals have always tried to be 'more professional" than say, electricians or plumbers.

And, is it our responsibility, beyond publicizing our membership, our bylaws and our mission, to control what a greens chairperson thinks?  Why does anyone think that someone other than a state government would have licenscing power?

FYI, we have started a strategic initiative to determine who we should be in the next decades.  I don't predict any radical changes, but as the profession gets more complicated, I think we will adhere to most of our original mission statement, and expand it gradually to fit our perceptions of newer needs with the profession.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re:Architects---how competitive do you find your business...
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2006, 08:46:45 AM »
Hey Bob,
I just sent in my Phase 1 application to ASGCA for the second time in 10 years...may get in may not....but reading your thread......yes, I have had a "member" of ASGCA, not ASGCA, use it as a selling tool against me.....
but the biggest culprit with Green Committees is not ASGCA but these stupid dead guy societies like the DRS.  These Green chairman eat that stuff up........some spanker will tell them how great it was at their project and the guy has nothing to compare...just knows they rubbed his head.....
Read KBM post on the "myths" thread....I have come to the conclusion the DRS is no different than the CBN and Pat Robertson...
At least when you compete with an ASGCA member you know he has designed golf courses in the past........and I don't think ASGCA began based on negativity like the DRS....
So, my attitude has changed....mission eradicate the dead guy groups...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

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