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Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #125 on: December 14, 2013, 03:19:24 PM »
I think I may have found the source of my confusion about Rich's post.  Rich wrote that the:  "The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up onto the C d'A . . . "

He seems to have gotten this from Tommy who posted the following image on the first page of this thread, and wrote, "The 12th played back up over the chambre d'amour and was supposedly the most prominent and feared hole at Biarritz."



Trouble is, the C d'A was the area down below the cliffs, not up above the cliffs, and I am pretty sure the hole pictured is actually the Cliff Hole, which is No. 14 on the map.

As for the photo with "13" or "15" on the box, I am not quite sure what to make of it.  On the one hand, it looks a lot like the cliff hole,   On the other hand, the tee for the 13th (on the map) is pretty close to the tee for the Cliff hole, so I guess it is conceivable that the photo is of people teeing off on the 13th, but the angle of the photo is aimed to capture the cliff hole.    That said, I I am leaning towards Bryan's explanation that this was just a different iteration when the Cliff hole was either the 13th or 15th, but I am not sure.  

Somewhere I have at least one other photo of the Cliff hole, and I will try to dig up when I get the chance.  

(Incidentally and for clarification's sake, Tommy also posted a photo he identified as the Chasm tee, but the hole in the photo is actually of a different hole at a different course where the ocean was on the golfer's left, not right.)

I hadn't really considered that photo before David but now I look at it, I have a feeling we have the answer right in front of us.

In other words, could that be a close up of the hogs back and green (at oblique angle - note rough line) of the 12th hole that Macdonald took inspiration from? The angle is right with what looks like the 13th tees behind placed on the bluff where the road descends. The topography fits as well.

Rich Goodale

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #126 on: December 14, 2013, 04:06:41 PM »
Thanks again for your work, David.  I've done a bit more digging and a bit more thinking and offer the following:

1.  Wnen I said "The old 12th then climbed the escarpment back up ONTO the C d'A . . . " I was assuming that the C d' A was the large oval surrounded by roads in Bryan's map from popst #36 on this thread.  However, further research has indicated that the C d' A was in fact a small grotto by the shoreline (where two star-crossed lovers used to meet for romnatic trysts , and were drowned in a tidal surge in the early 19th C) located roughly in line with the tee shot on the 12th hole from Bryan's map, and very possibly conforming to the photo that Ally reproduced in the post above.  Givein that it was a 300+ yard hole up the escarpment, I still think it more likely that the 1th green (downhill to the beach) is a more likely candidatge.

2.  The picture of the "Cliff" hole is almost certainly that of the hole which on Bryan's map is ~14.  The yardage is right as is the angle, and the notation on the postcard "La Montee de la Falaise" means "climbing the cliff" in French.  The the tee box says 15 rather than 14 must be due to either a signage error or a change in the routing, both of which were very possible.

3.  Finally compare Bryan's map to the contemporary photo it is obvious that the sea has encroached several hundred yards over the past 1000 years.  Where the 11th and 13 green and the 12th and 14th tees were 100 years ago is now sand or the Atlantic Ocean.  This is confirmed by contemporary articles I have read regarding the area and ghe Chambre d'Amour.

Cheers

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #127 on: December 14, 2013, 04:12:18 PM »
Bryan,

If we've learned anything, it's that written articles suffer in terms of accuracy.

They can be informative and accurate, but, often they're dead wrong.

The photo you posted is a perfect example.

The caption says # 14, yet the yardage marker is clear that it's NOT # 14.

We have the difficult task of trying to decipher and filter through this information and misinformation and reach prudent conclusions.

But, let me ask you this.

How could you possible play the hole pictured, once you miss your tee shot ?

It would be impossible to hit any subsequent shot, safely up the cliff, to the green.

We have learned that lesson, but it doesn't mean that it applies in this instance.  Look at the two photos I posted just above.  They are of quite different places on the property but they both are captioned "14."  The "14." most likely doesn't refer to the hole number at all.  The rest of the caption in plain English does say it is the Cliff hole.

You could play the hole like any other with a penal hazard.  Re-tee and try again. Sort of like the 17th at Sawgrass.  Given this hole and theChasm hole, clearly Dunn liked his holes tough.

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #128 on: December 14, 2013, 04:20:41 PM »
Ally,

I think that is too close to the cliff to be the 12th, which appeared to be much closer to the sea than the cliff.  Just my opinion.


Rich,

From what I've seen the Chambre d'Amour related to the whole area at the bottom of the cliffs as well as the aforesaid grotto of legend.  That area was generally pretty flat with some dunes from (non-golf) pictures I've seen; nothing for the 12th (or anything other than the Cliff hole) to climb out of.


Bryan Izatt

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #129 on: December 14, 2013, 04:22:30 PM »
...................

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #130 on: December 14, 2013, 04:48:28 PM »
Ally,

I think that is too close to the cliff to be the 12th, which appeared to be much closer to the sea than the cliff.  Just my opinion.


Rich,

From what I've seen the Chambre d'Amour related to the whole area at the bottom of the cliffs as well as the aforesaid grotto of legend.  That area was generally pretty flat with some dunes from (non-golf) pictures I've seen; nothing for the 12th (or anything other than the Cliff hole) to climb out of.



Bryan,

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss. The 12th green was only about 150 yards laterally from the top of the cliffs and a lot less to the bottom (as the cliffs didn't rise vertically) and there is an element of perspective to the photo in question. The foreground has to be a fairway seeing as there is an actual mow line. It also has to be a hogsback given that there is a false horizon in the middle of the picture. The hogsback is parallel to the line of the fairway, it then falls away to low ground (swale) before the lighter colour area to the very far left (middle) of the picture is potentially a slightly raised greensite... Walk back to the bluff which is the natural area for the road and where the 13th tee is placed.

If this hole is not the 12th, then what is it? The land matches the topo of the 12th on the routing map (from what it's possible to tell), the angles are right... It's not definitive but it's quite likely.

I agree with Rich on the "Cliff" hole but also don't understand why he might consider the 11th more likely given we've a photo of the green and given that the 12th didn't rise out of the flats...

Rich Goodale

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #131 on: December 14, 2013, 04:59:14 PM »
All

We do not have a picture of the 12th green, do we?  I say the 11th because it's the only one we've got!

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #132 on: December 14, 2013, 05:04:14 PM »
All

We do not have a picture of the 12th green, do we?  I say the 11th because it's the only one we've got!

Rich

But it's that photo that rules it out for me. The green site does not match MacDonald's description. Plus he describes the 12th.

We could have a photo of the 12th green site above... Just possibly... Although the direction of the road makes me a little unsure...

Incidentally, playing along with your theory that the 11th might be the green (despite photographic evidence that seems to suggest the contrary), if the Cliff Hole was at some point No.15 in the routing, then this could indeed have been the 12th at that same point...

EDIT:

Bryan,

I am already starting to change my mind and agree with you. I think it more likely that we are looking back from half way down the 11th towards the 11th tees (with sandy path down)... The bluff represents the upper road just before it turns and the photo is taken from the inside the U-turn...
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 05:20:37 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #133 on: December 14, 2013, 07:07:23 PM »
Bryan & Rich,

Neither you, nor anyone else has explained how you would play to the green on the cliff, on the hole shown below, after missing a tee shot.

Why not ?

That alone indicates that the green for the hole where the golfer is teeing off, is NOT up on that cliff, not far from the guy who just threw the golf bag over the edge.

Tell us, how did golfers play the hole after missing their tee shot.

DMoriarty

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #134 on: December 14, 2013, 07:11:25 PM »
Patrick, There are plenty of accounts of the famous "Cliff" hole hole at Biarritz.  Essentially the golfer was required to play a blind shot straight up a cliff to a green on top.  If the golfer didn't make it it was a lost ball, I guess.  Same as for the Chasm.  Earlier Bryan posted an article discussing the hole.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #135 on: December 14, 2013, 07:27:10 PM »
However, further research has indicated that the C d' A was in fact a small grotto by the shoreline (where two star-crossed lovers used to meet for romnatic trysts , and were drowned in a tidal surge in the early 19th C) located roughly in line with the tee shot on the 12th hole from Bryan's map, and very possibly conforming to the photo that Ally reproduced in the post above.  Givein that it was a 300+ yard hole up the escarpment, I still think it more likely that the 1th green (downhill to the beach) is a more likely candidate.

Rich,  I've read the legend but, as Bryan said, for golf course purposes the entire bottom area (below the cliffs) was described as the Chambre d'Amour. I've seen a number of photos of this lower area and it seems it was relatively level, with some rolls and ridges here and there.

In short,  I don't think that there is any possible way that the photo above is the 12th hole on that map, and I don't think there was any "escarpment" to play up on that 12th hole (on the map.) The map shows some contour lines, but I think they are showing a long ridge or rolling running parallel to the shoreline, which I think could possibly be the hogsback to which CBM and HJW referred.

Where are you getting the idea that the 12th tee (on the map) played up a large escarpment?   If it is just from Tommy's caption, I suggest that the photo is mislabeled or if it is correctly labeled it is from a time when the 12th hole was the cliff hole.  

Quote
All

We do not have a picture of the 12th green, do we?  I say the 11th because it's the only one we've got!

Rich

Funny, I think we can eliminate the 11th (on the map) precisely because we have photos and they don't show any of the features described.    

That said, somewhere I do have a photo labeled the 12th green , but I it is not of much help. (It doesn't show what comes before the green.)  I'll try to dig it up.
_________________________________________________________________

Ally, Interesting theory, but I think that photo was of the Cliff Hole and the hump you are seeing was the tee.   I'll try to figure out what I did with my other photos which hopefully will make this more clear.  
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 07:30:19 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #136 on: December 14, 2013, 08:33:26 PM »

Patrick, There are plenty of accounts of the famous "Cliff" hole hole at Biarritz.  

Essentially the golfer was required to play a blind shot straight up a cliff to a green on top.  If the golfer didn't make it it was a lost ball, I guess.
David,

I don't think so.

In a cursory review of the R&A rules from 1899 to 1902, one couldn't declare a ball lost, unless it was lost.

In addition, in medal play, if the golfer didn't finish the hole, he was disqualified.

Further, there was no unplayable rule equivalent to today's, in that returning to the tee was not an option, and even if it was, once the second shot had been struck, returning to the tee was no longer an available option.
 

Same as for the Chasm.  

Except that the "chasm" hole played over a water hazard, and there were relief options for a ball entering a water hazard.
No such water hazard was in evidence at the "cliff" hole.


Earlier Bryan posted an article discussing the hole.

Despite the author, I don't place significant credibility on the article, and would have to ask if the article was written before or after the author visited the site, and whether the article reflected the views of others, as related by the author.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 08:35:44 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Jim Nugent

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #137 on: December 14, 2013, 11:20:47 PM »

Patrick, There are plenty of accounts of the famous "Cliff" hole hole at Biarritz.  

Essentially the golfer was required to play a blind shot straight up a cliff to a green on top.  If the golfer didn't make it it was a lost ball, I guess.
David,

I don't think so.

In a cursory review of the R&A rules from 1899 to 1902, one couldn't declare a ball lost, unless it was lost.

In addition, in medal play, if the golfer didn't finish the hole, he was disqualified.

Further, there was no unplayable rule equivalent to today's, in that returning to the tee was not an option, and even if it was, once the second shot had been struck, returning to the tee was no longer an available option.
 


Maybe Biarritz had a local rule to deal with the issue.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #138 on: December 15, 2013, 12:51:21 AM »
Jim,

That's always possible, but doubtful, especially in medal play.

Jim Nugent

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #139 on: December 15, 2013, 12:56:54 AM »
Pat, I wonder how much an issue that was in the 1890s, at what I understand was mostly a resort course wealthy foreigners frequented. 

DMoriarty

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #140 on: December 15, 2013, 12:59:15 AM »
Patrick,  

Rules issues aside, there are multiple descriptions (and photos) of the hole, and it played straight up a cliff with the green on top.   Here is Horace Hutchinson, again, describing the hole in 1903 in Pearson's Magazine:

A little further on in the present Biarritz course there is a hazard of unusual nature. This is a cliff face opposing you, up which you have to loft the ball sixty odd feet in the air, with a full mashie shot, or something of that kind. There are many Biarritz golfers who have played there steadily yet never have ascended that giddy height—that is, never have persuaded their golf ball to mount it—and it is certain there are many who never will.

Turning to the rules issue . . . In The Happy Golfer (1914), Henry Leach also described the hole and directly addressed your rules question, Patrick.  Note that at this time, No. 8 played down into the Chambre and No. 13 was the "Cliff Hole" out of the Chambre.  (This might explain the sign on the tee box in the photo (if it is indeed a "13.")

The ascent to the higher surface has to be made at the thirteenth, and it is done at what is known to every one as the Cliff hole.

Nearly all who have never even seen it have heard of the Cliff hole of Biarritz, have studied pictures of it, and speculated upon its peculiar difficulties. No hole on the continent of Europe has nearly such a reputation; indeed, it is perhaps the only one with a special celebrity. I have been asked questions about it in America. I have seen and played it, examined it thoroughly, and thought it out. It is a queer thing, quite different from any other hole I know. It needs such a shot to play it properly as is not demanded elsewhere. And yet it requires absolute skill, the proper shot must be played and played thoroughly well, and it is practically impossible to fluke it. Why, then, should this not be reckoned a good golfing hole? The circumstances are these: The teeing ground is on the lower level, and it is only some fifty yards from the base of the cliff. The ground in between is rough and stony. The cliff here is about forty yards in height, and, if not vertical in the face, bulges outwards frowningly at the top, while a thin stream of water trickling down at one side seems to add a little more to the fearsomeness of the thing. At the top edge of the cliff there is grassy ground sloping quickly upwards for about a dozen yards until a line of wire is reached, and there the green begins. The fact that the green (which is tolerably large and in two parts, an upper and a lower) then slopes downwards away from the player does not make matters easier. Beyond it is another precipice, but wire netting is there to save the ball from this, and there is some wooden palisading to keep it out of trouble on the left. Then there is a local rule saying that if the ball reaches the top of the cliff, but does not pass the wire, it must be teed again, with loss of distance only, the man not being allowed to play it from the tee side of the wire. (He would do so at peril of toppling over the cliff!) But all these things do not make this awful hole much easier in the play. One day I sat on the edge of the cliff and watched the people playing it, and the ball that reached the green and stayed there was a rarity. It can be done. Braid and Taylor and Vardon would do it all the time, and it is no trick shot that is wanted. You might hit hard at the ground in front of the wire and make the ball trickle on, but that would call for more than human accuracy. Or you might sky your ball up to the heavens and let it fall straight down on to the green, and that would be superb. But champion Taylor would take his mashie and play, perhaps, some fifteen yards above the cliff with all the cut that he could put upon the ball, and then he would be putting for a two.  A difficult hole follows, but after that the work is easier.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #141 on: December 15, 2013, 01:38:41 AM »
Good stuff David, although I suspect that Patrick won't be persuaded.  Sometimes he's like a dog on a bone.   ;D


Ally,

Yes, the picture makes more sense if it's looking back up the 11th.



« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 01:44:17 AM by Bryan Izatt »

DMoriarty

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #142 on: December 15, 2013, 01:51:32 AM »
Maybe seeing is believing . . .



Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #143 on: December 15, 2013, 02:28:47 AM »
Pat, I wonder how much an issue that was in the 1890s, at what I understand was mostly a resort course wealthy foreigners frequented. 

Jim,

It was so much of an issue that they're still down there trying to get their ball up to the green


Bryan Izatt

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #144 on: December 15, 2013, 02:30:34 AM »
Here is a postcard purportedly from 1903 showing the whole Chambre d'Amour.  The golf course should be visible, but the quality is so poor I can't really make out anything.




And, here's another one from 1905.  Some dune ridges clearly visible, but they look like rough and the 12th green is probably just off the picture to the right.




And, another from 1928 when the course is clearly gone, but a hogs back is visible just beyond the building.  The building could have been built in the swale and there is anoher dune on this side of the building.




And another, much later in 1951, taken from the opposite direction with the hogs back in the foreground and the same building in the swale.




Patrick_Mucci

Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #145 on: December 15, 2013, 02:33:18 AM »
Maybe seeing is believing . . .

David, actually the photos support my premise

I wonder if these photos aren't similar to those of golfers standing on the 15th tee at Pine Valley and aiming at the 16th green.

Think of the skill level required to hit that tee shot.

Then think of the consequences of a missing that tee shot.

Recovery and reaching the green would be impossible.

Also note that the caption refers to the 14th hole, not the 13th or 15th hole

No way was that a bona fide golf hole





« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 02:35:39 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Bryan Izatt

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #146 on: December 15, 2013, 02:42:22 AM »
Presumably the first picture is more or less at right angles to the line of play.  The second more along the line of play.  The cliff slopes down towards the sea quite precipitously in that area.  The second looks not so daunting and it was only 60 yards to the wire fence (presumably those are posts for the fence that are clearly visible near the top of the hill). Have you ever played a 60 - 80 yard hole?  It's a really short shot.

The articles David posted suggest that the hole was very difficult for those that played it.  Impossible for some but not all.  Get over it.  The hole was what it was.  It certainly attracted attention.

What constitutes a bona fide hole in your opinion?


Maybe seeing is believing . . .

David, actually the photos support my premise

I wonder if these photos aren't similar to those of golfers standing on the 15th tee at Pine Valley and aiming at the 16th green.

Think of the skill level required to hit that tee shot.

Then think of the consequences of a missing that tee shot.

Recovery and reaching the green would be impossible.

Also note that the caption refers to the 14th hole, not the 13th or 15th hole

No way was that a bona fide golf hole






Patrick_Mucci

Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #147 on: December 15, 2013, 02:59:08 AM »
Presumably the first picture is more or less at right angles to the line of play.  The second more along the line of play.  The cliff slopes down towards the sea quite precipitously in that area.  The second looks not so daunting and it was only 60 yards to the wire fence (presumably those are posts for the fence that are clearly visible near the top of the hill). Have you ever played a 60 - 80 yard hole?  It's a really short shot.

An 80 yard hole is not short when hitting to a green elevated high above you.
At 80 yards you'd have to have a very sharp trajectory.

And, to date you've still been unable to answer the question as to how the hole was played if the tee shot was mishit.

I have played huge drop shot par threes.

The 12th at Roxciticus comes to mind
At 178 from the white tees, a 6 or 7 iron was sufficient.
Playing from the green back up to the tee, we couldn't get close with drivers.


The articles David posted suggest that the hole was very difficult for those that played it.

The articles aren't to be relied on because they don't even get the number of the hole right.
OR, maybe they do, and that's not the "Cliff" hole.


 Impossible for some but not all.  Get over it.  The hole was what it was.

You're in no position to claim that you know how the hole was configured or how it played.
And, you have yet to explain how a golfer who missed his tee shot could ever get to the green with subsequent shots.
If you know so much about the hole why can't you answer that question ?
 It certainly attracted attention.

What constitutes a bona fide hole in your opinion?

A hole that can be completed during normal play



Maybe seeing is believing . . .

David, actually the photos support my premise

I wonder if these photos aren't similar to those of golfers standing on the 15th tee at Pine Valley and aiming at the 16th green.

Think of the skill level required to hit that tee shot.

Then think of the consequences of a missing that tee shot.

Recovery and reaching the green would be impossible.

Also note that the caption refers to the 14th hole, not the 13th or 15th hole

No way was that a bona fide golf hole






DMoriarty

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #148 on: December 15, 2013, 03:10:54 AM »
Patrick,

Take a look at the large blue quote above by famed golf writer Henry Leach.  I think it answers all your questions.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #149 on: December 15, 2013, 04:02:39 AM »
David, thanks for those extra photos which show a lot. I do believe the glacé 59 slide shows that the photo I posted at the top is a reverse look up 11 rather than the cliff hole. The configuration of the sandy paths seem to back this up. Interestingly, the cliffs in question for the 14th are heavily vegetated at the time of the photo. You can see the remnants of that vegetation in a later photo and then it seems almost completely cleared by the close up photo. Was the glacé 59 slide dated, perhaps from before the golf course?

I think you have clearly identified the location of the 12th green with those final slides and as per the topi on the routing map it shows the fore dune ridge was used as a hogs back approaching the green site. Personally, I think it is beyond reasonable doubt that this is Macdonald's "Biarritz"

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