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Sven Nilsen

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Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #300 on: December 31, 2013, 05:16:06 PM »
David:

I did mean modern claims when discussing the Chasm Hole being numbered as the 12th.  I think we agree that the idea that the Chasm Hole was ever the 12th Hole is a latter-day fallacy.

I noted that 1890 letter earlier in the thread, and came up with a routing that was my best guess as to how those nine holes played and which ones survived into later iterations of the course (see posts 186 and 204).

Here's part of my writeup and the routing map from post #204:

I'd surmise that the routing of the original course was as follows:

1st Hole - Probably played along the same corridor as the 1st on the map.
2nd Hole - Probably played along the same corridor as the 2nd on the map.
3rd Hole - Along the cliff edge near the location of the 2nd green on the map.
4th Hole - From somewhere close to where we believe the 3rd green lay (near the X on the map) to a location near where the 5th tee would have been.
5th Hole - Played over the Punch Bowl, suggesting it ran on a similar line to the 10th hole on the map but longer.
6th Hole - The same as 16 on the map.
7th Hole - A short hole of 115 yards that played from near the 16th green to close to the 17th tee on the map.
8th Hole - The same as 17 on the map
9th Hole - Close to the same as 18 on the map, playing between the Punchbowl on the right and the Dell on the left.

Here's the map with the original 9 hole routing marked, with one possible solution for how 4 and 5 worked (each marked in orange).  For the perfectionists in the group, this is only meant to be a rough attempt at identifying the routing.



Sven
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 05:21:15 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #301 on: December 31, 2013, 05:27:47 PM »
David:

I think MacWood would have loved this thread and I'm sorry he isn't around to participate.  I miss the days when the front page of the discussion group was littered with topics that emphasized the two quotes we include in the footers of our posts.

All the best,

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #302 on: January 01, 2014, 03:02:13 PM »
Sorry Sven, I had forgotten you covered the 1890 routing earlier in the thread.   From where did you come up with the nine hole routing utilizing the Grouse Moor? I was thinking the Grouse Moor was first utilized when the course was expanded to 18 holes but before the Chambre was utilized, but I could be misremembering that as well.


As for Tom MacWood, I miss his contributions very much.  The website is a much lesser place without him, as is the overall discussion of golf course architecture. Ten thousand "Look Where I Played!" threads couldn't replace a single of his well-researched and well-considered posts.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #303 on: January 01, 2014, 07:40:13 PM »
If you're talking about the nine holes drawn on the map in my response to Jim above, I just stopped adding in holes as they weren't needed for the point made in the post, which was to guesstimate the location of the 4th and 5th holes.  That map (and the one it was meant to clarify from post #205) were drawn to depict the course based on an 1893 written description, when it had 18 holes with holes 6-9 lying in the Grouse Moor.  I don't think the Grouse Moor was ever in play as part of any 9 hole iteration.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #304 on: January 01, 2014, 07:45:32 PM »
Gotcha.  Thanks.  And Happy New Year!
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #305 on: January 16, 2020, 10:33:57 AM »
An oldie but a goodie.


Adding in two photos of the new version of the Cliff Hole (as discussed earlier in the thread).





"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #306 on: January 16, 2020, 10:40:50 AM »
Great photos, Sven.


What would you estimate the Cliff Hole tee to green elevation change was?  It looks as much as 40 feet or so.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #307 on: January 16, 2020, 01:20:53 PM »

Just adding to some of the previous info on this hole 

The remnants of the green site are still there to the left of the turn in the road that climbs up the cliff. 





So, to calculate the rise on google earth- the green site is 85 feet above see level.  The street where I drew the golfer is about 25 feet.  So, it looks like it was at most a 60 foot elevation rise.  But it may have been less if the teeing area was built up over what is currently the street. 
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 01:35:57 PM by Peter Flory »

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #308 on: January 16, 2020, 02:30:15 PM »
Too cool, Peter...thanks!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #309 on: January 18, 2020, 03:38:33 PM »
This is one of the most interesting threads. I wish all the missing photos could be restored.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +0/-1
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #310 on: January 18, 2020, 04:20:20 PM »

Someday I hope to build a golf hole something like this, if only to freak people out.







Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #311 on: January 19, 2020, 12:43:49 PM »
The Original 10th at Blackwolf Run had an approach just like that. I recall hitting my 185 club from 145, coming up just short. It allowed me to experience another one of Pete's humorous jokes. After literally climbing the front face, my eye was treated to a ground levell perspective of the flattest green I'ver seen. (NLE) 

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #312 on: January 19, 2020, 01:48:54 PM »
What an evil shot back in the days of wooden shafts and heads and iffy golf balls and jackets and ties.
Similarities if you fail to reach the putting surface with the approach to greensites akin to the 11th at Pennard, the 5th at Bb-Cashen, the 12th at Enniscone or the 7th at Carne? Mind only two of these mentioned are par-3's.
atb

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #313 on: January 19, 2020, 07:50:44 PM »
Can't help but wonder if Pete Dye got at least some of his inspiration from old holes like this in building those insanely deep bunkers right next to greens at PGA West, Whistling Straits, etc.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #314 on: January 20, 2020, 06:21:57 AM »
Thank you Sven and thank you Peter, wonderful stuff.


Peter the illustration you give is of the Cliff Hole playing out of the Chamber D'Amour. I'm assuming these images are new to Google earth? Would you like to try the same thing for the Chasm Hole discussed earlier in the thread. (Even though it cant be fully seen Brian Izatt has a course overlay in Post 36)


I'm on a promise to take the wife to the Hotel du Palais. We had a big anniversary last year, but it was closed for refurbishment prior to hosting the G6 - Biarritz has not lost all its glamour of old. With the right evidence I'm even prepared to knock on a door to request to see a back garden! 







Just adding to some of the previous info on this hole 

The remnants of the green site are still there to the left of the turn in the road that climbs up the cliff. 





So, to calculate the rise on google earth- the green site is 85 feet above see level.  The street where I drew the golfer is about 25 feet.  So, it looks like it was at most a 60 foot elevation rise.  But it may have been less if the teeing area was built up over what is currently the street.
on 29th May I am riding 100 Miles to help raise funds for Dementia Research. All donations are welcome.
https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ridelondon-tonymuldoon

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #315 on: January 20, 2020, 12:55:35 PM »


Tony,


The green site for for the chasm hole based on the routing map should be in the back yard of the mansion at 17 Avenue General Mac Croskey, opposite the intersection of Boulevard de la Mer and Avenue Edith Cavell.  There's a white gate in the hedge row.  It doesn't look too inviting.  The house immediately to the East would be where the tee was - somewhere near their pool.


A more intrepid approach would be to climb up the ravine between the two from the Chambre side. :)  Maybe there's be some old balls there although there appears to be lots of erosion in the last century.


 

Peter Flory

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #316 on: January 20, 2020, 01:51:21 PM »
On Google Earth, make sure that you click on the "3D Buidlings" option under Layers.  That not only shows the buildings, but it gives a much more realistic view of the terrain and the foliage. 


The modern day version of the course looks like it still has some really dramatic features. 


Mark Fedeli

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #317 on: January 28, 2020, 04:45:28 PM »
Always great to see this thread bubble up again. Has always been my favorite on GCA.


Is this the only modern research that lays out how the Biarritz green inspiration was not the Chasm? I've not really seen it discussed in detail anywhere else. I only see the Chasm claim incorrectly repeated including by people who should know better.
South Jersey to Brooklyn. @marrrkfedeli

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The original Biarritz
« Reply #318 on: January 29, 2020, 02:32:17 AM »
This is one of the most interesting threads. I wish all the missing photos could be restored.


Mike and Others,


If the missing photos are ones that are blurred out by the Photobucket watermark, be aware that there are browser extensions out there that will take away the blurring and enable normal viewing of the pictures.  Just Google "Photobucket blurry fix" and find an and install an extension for your browser.




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