[Dan Kelly]

In the Personal Top 50 thread, Matt Ward wrote:

"The first few holes at P[ebble] B[each] are indeed less than what they can be and I am well versed in how the course tries to build the kind of fanfare it so wonderfully does as you start with the oceanside holes at #6."

Which got me to musing: Would Pebble Beach be an even better composition if it began at No. 11 and ended at No. 10 -- with the current Nos. 17 and 18 being Nos. 7 and 8 ... leading into a calming intermezzo (the new 9, 10, 11; the current 1, 2, 3) ... as the crescendo built toward the heartstopping finale along the ocean, beginning with the crafty No. 4 (the new No. 12) and finishing with the terrifying  No. 10 (the new 18th)?

I think it would be an even more spectacular course that way. Agree or disagree, I'll be curious to know what the rest of you think.

And while you're at it -- here's your assignment ... should you choose to accept it: Take any course you consider great. Leave the holes alone. (No redesigning!) Imagine that you can move the clubhouse anywhere you like -- or that (as at Sand Hills, and possibly some other courses) the clubhouse needn't be anywhere near the first tee. Can you improve the course by starting somewhere other than the current No. 1?

[CHrisB]

Dan,

I would sure like to see Royal County Down start on #10 (even though it is a par 3); it would result in a strong start, lull in the middle, then strong back nine with a tremendous finishing hole (9th), instead of a strong start and middle, then a lull at the finish.

If you take this "save the best for last mentality", then you would probably look at flipping the holes of several GBI courses where the front nine is stronger than the back (Machrihanish comes to mind).

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Move the clubhouse of Augusta National behind the 13th green.

[Steve_L.]

It's fun to think about - but I'd leave Pebble alone...

Starting at #11 - number 14 comes too early in the round, I wouldn't be crazy about #12 as a 2nd hole, and I like the mid-round departure from the ocean...

[Paul_Lorenzen]

Put the Bethpage clubhouse behind 15  (now becomes  the 18th),  and  16 becomes the first hole. Solve a whole lot of probs for you guys trying to fix the old 18th!!

[ForkaB]

I agree with you on PB, Dan.  Of course, if you fudge a bit, starting on 11 would free up space to make the current #1 into a great hole.....

Here are some other ideas in this vein:

Dornoch--tee off at the 5th
NGLA--reverse the 9's (as CB designed it)
TOC--tee off on 18, finish on 17
Cypress--tee off from the patio overlooking the 18th green and go backwards....
Ballybunion--go back to the old layout (finish on 6)
Pacific Dunes--tee off somewhere in the middle (6?, 7?)

all I can think of fur the noo...

[JohnV]

For Pacific, I like the way it was back when there were only 9 holes and you started on the current #8.  Make that #1 and finish with 4, 5, 6 and 7.  A great finish.

[Tim_Weiman]

Rich Goodale:

The old layout at Ballybunion was how the course played for the 2000 Irish Open. But, that course starts rather than ends with the current #6.

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Tim.  Doesn't close count for internet postoings just as much as in horseshoes?

[Mike Benham]

It could work at Pebble ... they already have a sufficient structure for a pro-shop and clubhouse ...

http://www.californiacoastline.org/cgi-bin/image.cgi?image=1187&mode=sequential&flags=0

Ps:  On a side note, this website is being sued by Barbara Streisand for invasion of privacy and anit-papparazzi laws ... go to the home page to see ... liberals vs. liberals ...

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

Rich,

Tee off on 18 at TOC?

Surely you jest?  

Walk out of town 400 yards, play back towards town, play back out of town again, and end your game 400 yards from town, only to walk in?

Nah...

[JohnV]

I read that last night.  Ms. Streisand is being a classic Nimby, not a liberal.  If this was done for the east coast rather than the west, she'd probably be saying what a great idea it was.  $50,000,000 for publishing a picture that shows her house somewhere in it.  What a bunch of carp (sic)!

Unfortunately for her, the people who are doing this project have as much money as she does and are going to fight her all the way.

[Rick Shefchik]

Rich --

By "free up space," I'm assuming you mean removing the existing Lodge.

Ixnay.

Please don't even mutter that idea under your breath. My wife really liked the golf course when we visited for the first time last month, but she loves The Tap Room; in fact, she has pronounced it her favorite restaurant in the world. She doesn't kid around about things like that.

That means, as long as the Tap Room exists, I've got a fighting chance to go back there and play again some day. So renumber the holes if you will, but touch not a knot on those dark wooden walls of the Tap Room. You're going to have to play around it or over it to get my support.

Rick

[Tim_Weiman]

Rich Goodale:

Yes, for a guy like yourself, close is pretty good!

Anyway, Ballybunion seemed kind of cool playing the old routing, though I have never actually done it myself. What now plays as numbers 6-11 would be one hell of a start.

Then, too, it might make for a better 19th hole as the finish would be much closer to pubs in town. Not having to drive to and from the golf course must have really been nice.

[ForkaB]

Tim

See, you're coming around to my point of view already!

Jeremy

The area by the 17th green at TOC is still in "town" and the parking there is better than at the 1st.

Rick

I envisage a "Road Hole" sort of tee shot, over the patio and the current putting green to a sliver of the current 1st fairway.  From there it would be a full-blown wood to reach the tiny green, and I'm sure create great excitement for the shoppers in the "Great Mall of Paradise" that is Pebble Beach.  Under my plan, imbibers in the Tap Room would be blissfully unaware of all the golf hapenning over them as they sipped their Chardonnays du jour.

[Chris Kane]

Kingston Heath: start at #7 and end at #6 which is a fantastic par-four.  #7 would be much softer start than the present 1st.

I don't think this hole order is superior to the current one (14-17 at KH are fantastic holes down the stretch), 6 would be far superior to 18 as the final hole.  And 6 is in a better spot relative to the clubhouse!

[redanman]

On a side note, this website is being sued by Barbara Streisand for invasion of privacy and anit-papparazzi laws ... go to the home page to see ... liberals vs. liberals ...

The picture would be OK if Architectural Digest were paying her for the rights, of course.  Never could stand her voice no less her and her politics.  It would be funny if her house slid in to the beach and the state sued her for contaminating the beach.  Oh well, in another lifetime.

[tonyt]

Chris,

The two short par 4s early in the round at Kingston Heath are awesome holes, but I wouldn't like them to be #14 & #15. #16 becomes a tad soft too so late in the round. Like you've said, the current layout has a very strong finish, without being brutal. The only real benefit then is as you say, a great finishing hole which is well located. And no more teeing off into the morning sun.

The other problem with starting on #7 is that the back nine would have 8 par 4s and a par 3 17th. Royal Melbourne is less enjoyable with it's more modern composite routing which finishes in 7 consecutive par 4s. The guys who played the Heineken don't like it as much as the regular composite course.

How about Victoria, starting at #13 (with the unfortunate exception of the sun early on #1 and late on #18)? Fair start with early variety, strong 17-18 finish, and a good balanced mix of holes throughout.

[Forrest Richardson]

Pebble has the correct amount of anticipation and lulls. I had wished I'd asked Jack Neville about the routing when I interviewed him in the 1970s — but didn't. All I recall was a humble man who said "We really didn't do anything special, the great land was there for us to just place golf holes." Pebble is admittedly weak at the start and after the 10th — but I still feel it's what makes it. Marlyn's mole, you know, was also not perfect, but very sexy for its mystique of imperfection.

[A_Clay_Man]

Forrest- There were too many pictures to post this on the "flow" thread,
 but,
 these lulls you aptly name, are only lulls due to the relative "peaks" found at Pebble. And I'll even argue that "weak" could only be a description by a skilled golfer. The holes 1,2,3,4,11,13 & 15 all or most have O.B. on both sides and a few have some serious hazards, which are well placed.
But, that is part of Pebble's "flow", Broken down to, Attack early and hope to hang on, with a chance for late heroics.

I really enjoy a breather hole and I appreciate them early in the round. Would you consider The 5th hole at the Hideout one? It doesn't tend to overwhelm the golfer but rather gives him/her the opportunity to enjoy the serenity of that piece of property and is a great transition before you head back in.

[Forrest Richardson]

Well, for one, O.B. is always better than B.O. — but not by much. I detest O.B. — and B.O., for that matter. Yes, No. 5 at The Hideout is a lull, but No. 6 may be a bit more docile — did you mean No. 6? — No. 5 is the very downhill "Old Man West" experience. Regardless, Holes 5 and 6 are probably quiet compared to others.

[A_Clay_Man]

Yes Forrest, the downhill 5th. While you were back east, Matt Ward and I discussed this hole and he felt it needed some more challenge on the approach. I of course didn't see that and chose to appreciate the beauty of that corner. I, being an old slicer, felt the 6th was not all that docile. The fear of the pull or the over cut was dominant in my mind both times there.

[Mike_Cirba]

Put the Bethpage clubhouse behind 15  (now becomes  the 18th),  and  16 becomes the first hole. Solve a whole lot of probs for you guys trying to fix the old 18th!!

Paul;

Actually, we're trying to fix the new 18th!  

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