[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I mentioned some things about the fine job that George Bhato is doing at Essex County CC back a couple weeks ago in a post I started on "Architectural Accuracy" vs. "Continuity"  I thought I would go ahead now that I have had some time to put together a hole by hole description to post that.  I only wish I had a digital camera to take along on these trips so that maybe I could get this onto the "Courses by Architect" list.  That will be the next item on the budget when my customers start buying some things again.

Anyway....

I played Essex County Country Club on the afternoon of September 21st with a friend of mine, a member named Joe Accardi.  We talked with his friend Bill O'Malley (whom I think is involved with the greens comittie or something) in the men's grill before we came out to play, he explained that the first six holes, and the 9th here at Essex County were designed by A.W. Tillinghast about 1912, it was originally a full 18-hole course.  At the time in the club members had one of the very first Tillinghast courses on their hands, unfortunately for whatever reason they decided that was best to plow under the balance of the holes and brought in Seth Raynor to redesign the other 11 around 1926 I think.  Seth layed out the balance of the course, and construction started.  During construction Raynor passed away and Charles "Steamshovel" Banks finished the construction of the course.  This is a wonderful golf course, that is in the middle of some restoration work by George Bhato.  The club is trying to accomplish this while still maintaining their high level of golf for their members.  This has meant a kind of piece meal approach, and makes for a somewhat hodge-podge of styles at this time until the restoration is complete.  Several of the holes are completed and have been returned to the flat bottom bunkers with steep grass faces.  The sand in these restored bunkers is noticably lighter in color and coarser in size distribution than the holes that have not been restored. The unrestored holes are a more traditional bunker with contoured bottom shape and slightly flashed sand edges.  I think this will be a spectacular course when the restoration is complete, and the continuity returns.

The 1st tee here at Essex County country club is quite unique protected from the proshop building on two sides by tall hedges.  There is a tiny hole hollowed out in the hedgerow where the hole's yardage sign is located.  The sign tells you that the hole is a  383yd. par 4.  The tee shot slopes fairly dramatically from right to left, the entire fairway cants pretty hard to left.   A decent drive will leave you 120-140yds. left into this hole.  The hole is down in a valley to a kidney shaped green with one lone bunker cutting in close to the curve of the kidney shaped green. This bunker is about 4ft below the level of the putting surface.

The 2nd hole is a very short par 4 measuring 298 yards from the back tees.  The proper play is like a 200-220 yard shot up to left side, your tee shot plays over the road/driveway coming into the club.  The second shot is into a fairly small green slopes hard right to left and is guarded by deep flat bottom bunkers right and left.  

The 3rd hole is narrow driving hole, not because of any trees, but is tightly pinched by fairway bunkers both right and left.  The bunkers have all been restored to the flat bottom variety.  The second shot is into a green the opening of which starts on the left and works in behind some large mounting and bunker and on the right hand side.  The proper play is to land and shot in the front of or just on the front edge of the green and it will release as this green falls from front to back.  There is some great bunkering around this green and a nice run-up area in front.  

The 4th hole is a 420yd par 4.  The proper line for the tee shot is to start it at a watertower on the horizon.  The hole dog-legs slightly right to left, and also falls slightly downhill.  There is a fairway bunker short and right which is not visible in the teebox, however it is short enough it really is not in play.  

The 5th hole a par 4 of 460 yards from the back tees, slight dogleg to the right with a grass bunker inside the right corner, the fairway slopes from right to left in actuality when you get out in the fairway.  The bunker on the right hand side and is a traditional sand bunker, and there is also a grass bunker.  A large series of diagonal cross bunkers from short right to long left cuts across the fairway This green slopes away from you, as most of the first several do.  The proper play is to land it a few yards short and run it back to the flagstick.  This green is round in cross-section probably 60 feet in diameter, the greenside bunker on the right hand side is an S-shaped bunker with a flat bottom and steep grass covered faces on all sides

The 6th is a176 yard par 3,a beautiful hole, the left side of the green is obscured by some mounding and bunkering.  Bunker in front is probably ten yards short of the green the back right portion of of the green is to sloped so that you can use the hillside to slingshot the ball back to left and avoid the bunkers on the left-hand side by using that hillside.  The hole is very dramatic when you get up to the green and see that hill and slope.  

The 7th is a Par 5 of 614 yards, a slight dogleg back up the hill to the left.   A bunker on the right in the driving area is very much in play.  From there the hole slopes very gradually to a green that from the fairway looks looks fairly unprotected.  Once you get close to the green here at 7 you will notices the putting surface is pushed up with fairly sharp edges on the left and right sides which drop off dramatically into greenside bunker's right and left.

The 8th hole is 524 yard par 5, which plays slightly downhill from the tee to a generous landing area that slides slightly to the right.  Hitting something more than 260-270 yards will go through the fairway into a small stone lined lake across the fairway.  The fairway starts on the other side of the lake about 200 yards out from the green, once again there is a very dramatic steep drop offs down to the bunker probably about 6 feet below the putting surface. The putting surface is fairly flat and and kind of a rounded corner square shape.

The 9th hole is a nice uphill par 3.  From the left-hand teebox it is very narrow pinched in by trees on both sides an plays straight up the hill.  There are about four bunkers terraced up the hillside stepping up towards the green, and some nice mounding left and right around edges of the green.  The 7th, 8th, & 9th holes all I have the bunkers that are a little more contoured with the brownish sand that has a little different consistancy.  These holes have not yet been restored to have the same flat bottom style bunkers that the rest of the course has.

...See next post for the back nine. (I guess I got too long winded)

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Now for the back nine....

The 10th teebox is unique in that it basically plays right off the patio right behind the clubhouse, the mens grill room windows look out directly on this teebox.  It is a par 4 straight down a gradual sloped hill down to the landing area.  From there the hole falls off again downhill to a green that appears to be fairly flat.  It actualy appears to have a slight slope from back to front, but I think that is lilely an optical illusion caused by the hill in front of the green.  The greenside bunker on the right falls off dramatically, with very sharp edge.  The bunker bottom is probably 10-12 feet below the level of the putting surface.  The view back up the fairway from the 10th green towards clubhouse is very spectacular.

The 11th is a 202 yard par 3 for the back tees, an "Eden" hole.  The green on the right hand side falls off very steeply probably at about a 60 degree angle with a massive grass wall which looks like about 10-12 feet to a very deep bunker.  A creek meanders its way down the hill from left to right with a stone bridge crossing over it on the left-hand side and leading up to the green.  Very big oak tree sits directly behind the green and really frames the hole very nicely. This is a truly spectacular view from the tee.  As you walk off of the tee complex, a walking bridge probably 100 yards long that at its apex is probably is 60 feet above creek which  the runs below takes you along the left hand side through the trees.  A very spectacular hole from the teebox, a gorgeous walk across the bridge, and a great golf hole.  What more can you say.

The 12th, the number two handicap hole is a 443 yard par 4, the tee shot his hit uphill to kind of a domed fairway.  After hitting your tee shot you walk across another nearly hundred yard elevated wooden walking bridge.  As you cross this bridge you can see the remnants of an old walking bridge down in the bottom of the ravine, that must have been quite a hike up the other side of the ravine.  The second shot continues on uphill.  The green has a lot of undulation and kind of runs diagonally back from right to left.  A flat bottom bunker cuts in very closely on the front left, and a very deep bunker wraps around the back and right hand side of the green.

The 13th is a 548 yard par 5.  The teeboxes are terraced into the hillside and the drive falls slightly downhill a flat bottom fairway bunker on the left is probably in play, however the one on the right is short enough it  probably should not be in play.  The second shot here at 13 his uphill to a landing area that is pinched on the right by a pretty substantial bunker which is somewhat blind from where you are playing your second shot.  From there the hole turns slightly to the right and the green has very sharp corners on the right and left side that fall away.  This green is a great example of Charles "Steamshovel" Banks with the steep and deep grass walls and the very sharp squared off corners.

The 14th is a very unique looking hole from the teebox. It is a 336 yd. par 4 from the championship tees, and plays slightly uphill entire way.  A very large bunker on the right probably 210-240 from the tee sets the strategy for this hole.  The fairway is very narrow if you carry it past that fairway to the fairway above.  However, since the hole is only 336yds. you can play it short of that bunker with a long iron or fairway wood and then the landing area is very wide.  The second shot into the green has to clear a very large hill with a bunker directly in front, which they call the "Lions Mouth Bunker".  The green is a figure 8 shape and gently slopes from back right to front left.  There are some subtle humps in the green itself, and the very prominent mound directly in front pinches in on the green.  Substantial mounding entirely around on the other three sides of the green creates about a six-foot deep amphitheater affect.  It is a very impressive greensite.  

The 15th is a "Biarritz" hole, of 226 yards.  The trough that make one call this a "Biarritz" hole is not actually in the green.  It is short of the green in the apron just in front of the green.  I wondered if it ever was a full green unit even in front and has just shrunk down over the years similar to the 4th at Lookout Mountain GC.  This is a good question to ask Matt Ward or anyone else who may be know about the green there and its history.

Standing on the tee at the 439 yard par four 16th immediately on the left of the back teebox is the retaining pond for irrigation . The tee shot is kind of semi-blind uphill, the fairway looks like it slopes left to right, really is not that dramatic.  Two grass bunker on the right hand side of the fairway are very short off the tee really are not in play.  These will remain grass bunkers after the restoration.  When you arrive at your ball in the fairway you will see that the fairway actually slopes right to left which is little bit opposite of what looks like from the teebox.  The approach shot is to a double plateau green.  This is a great "Double-Plateau" green complex.  The front right section is elevated and falls down to the front left section.  This lower area extends across from right to left and the rear portion is elevated again to give you the second plateau in the green.  Just a great hole!

17th hole is a par 4 dogleg to the left.  The second shot is slightly uphill to another dramatic green complex.  The putting surface itself is blind from the fairway.  The right hand side has a dramatic steep and high grass wall probably 10-12 feet deep.  I this bunker is incredibly intimidating from below.

The 18th tee shot falls dramatically from the tee complex to the fairway probably 60 or 70 feet above the  fairway.  Two small fairway bunkers on the left side guard the landing.  From there the hole slopes uphill the rest of the way into  the green which finishes directly behind clubhouse.  There are two cross bunkers about 80-100 yards short of the  green.  The shot is fairly dramatically uphill to a good sized green complex with some mild undulations in the back 1/3 of it.  The green is guarded by bunker's left and right which are fairly tame by Essex County standards here, probably only 3-4 feet deep.

Again, this course has a great routing and many wonderful holes.  Once the restoration is complete it will be interesting to see again hopefully.  

[Matt_Ward]

Turboe:

You will get plenty of people who may not realize the design charm that comes from playing Essex County -- it is often overlooked as many flock to Baltusrol, Plainfield, etc. The back nine is, in my opinion, one of the five best in New Jersey and I dare say there is not a weak hole on the inward half.

The 12th is one of the strongest par-4's in the Garden State. You must really beat a tee shot to get within range for the second -- especially when the pin is cut far left and the front bunker lurks nearby.

The short 14th is also underrated as one of the better short holes in NJ. The 16th green is also so well done by Banks. Land on the wrong level and it's likely three-putt city will come your way.

And, the finale brings you home in grand style.

I wish the club well because the efforts of George Bahto and crew should really fine tune the qualities of a course that I believe just misses out being included among the state's top ten. If the front nine equalled the back you would easily be talking about a top five course in the Garden State and a layout worthy of top 100 consideration.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Turboe,
A very well thought out write up. Thanks.
 
I think that the two par 3's on the back nine should rank highly using any criterion.
That double plateau green on 16 is a gas. It kept me there putting and shaking my head for quite a while.
The saddleback fwy. on 12 either had or should have had bunkers on its right flank, as explained to me by George.
He definitely has a complete understanding of this place, with the architectural evidence to back up his proposals.  
Whoever hired George should at least get his/her portrait hung prominently on the mug shot wall and the members should pat themselves on the back for having the foresight to elect this person in the first place.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Turboe,

Essex County East is a terrific golf course, and Matt is right about the back nine there.

At one time, before the depression, I believe it was a 36 hole layout, and that the course sold the WEST course to the County in hard times.  Hopefully, you'll get a chance to play that one as well.

All too often golfers get lulled to sleep by the early holes, and rudely awakened by the back nine.

Interestingly, it was one of five courses built on the west slope of the first ridge of the Orange mountains.  All were within a mile of each other.  Montclair and ECCC had 36 holes.  AWT, Ross, and Raynor were involved, and I forget who was involved with the fifth course which is now the Essex Green shopping plaza, which sits between MCC and ECCC.  It too might have had 36, but I seem to recall only 18.

I'm anxious to play the finished restoration, and thanks for your detailed description.

[Matt_Ward]

Turboe:

To piggyback what Pat said it's important to remember that when Essex County had 36 holes the existing private course today was called the East -- the one at the bottom of the hill was called the West and was operated by the club for a time as a daily fee facility. About 20 years or more the club sold the public course to Essex County and it has been called Francis Bryne since.

One other thing you may have noticed when in the cluhouse are pictures of an exhibition that Bobby Jones conducted at the club, I believe in the late 20's. Unless I am mistaken Jones played 36 holes in one day and he commented that the 15th on the public course was one of the finest par-4's he had ever played. It's still a wonderful hole to this day -- albeit in need of some fine tuning.

Unfortunately, the qualities of the former West Course were badly handled. Initially, the private club took land from the West and two superb holes, the uphill 7th and the downhill 8th, both solid par-4's, were eviserated. When county government took over the West the layout was given scant attention and the various details have slowly faded away although there are still some elements visible.

Essex County (private) is a delicious layout because of the mixture of architects who have been involved. Anyone coming to Jersey that leaves the course off their "must play" list is missing something of real quality.

[George Bahto]

Turboe: you asked about the Biarritz at ECCC: it was never putting surface short of that moderatly deep, angled swale.

What is unique is that this ECCC Biarritz is played to at an angle rather than straight away, as most "normal" Biarritzs (hah) are played to. This is a one-of-a-kind Biarritz as is the 17th at Westhampton CC - there, there was originally an huge inverted horseshoe-shaped bunker encircling the entire area (points of the horseshoe shape towards away from the tee-box. These two were the most different versions of this Biarritz genre I have seen.

As I said on another thread, we'll be reestablishing the original huge bunker that fronted the 9th green and doing away with the bogus four "thingies" that are there now.

Glad you liked what's already been done.

As Matt is aware, I played over the other 18 holes for many years - there were a lot of great holes there:  RIP  

[Bob_Farrell]

I've been playing ECCC for over 35 years and it is one of my absolute favorites in NJ. As has been stated the back nine stacks up against any in this state. A great variety of holes and an extremely testing terrain.

The course was the site of many professional events and outings over the years. Long Jim Barnes was a frequent sight at the club, and there were a host of big money matche played there.

The West Course was probably the best public course in the state until it was sold to the county, and we have had so many new and challenging courses built. And yes, the 15th is a marvelous par 4. I remember back in the early 60's it was designated the hardest par 4 in the state. Too bad it has suffered as it has.

Pat:

I think the 5th course on the mountain was Rock Spring. There was never, to my recollection a course where Essex Green is/ The property isn't big enough either. What you may remember is that there was driving range across from Pal's Cabin on the west side of Prospect and Mt Pleasant Avenues.


In any event, I can't wait to see what they do to ECCC. Let the others flock to Baltusrol, et. al. I'll play ECCC any time.

BF

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Farrell,

Rock Spring is at the end of the street, which would be the 6th course.

The fifth course was where the essex green shopping mall now sits, paralleling Route 280

[George Bahto]

Guys: that course where Essex Green shopping center was what "we" called "Goat Hill" - I think it was West Orange Golf Club (perhaps at one time called Mountain Ridge before they moved to West Caldwell). That course was up and down the mountain - 9 holes? Build by a David Hunter. Terrible course! Let me think, about that a bit.

[Bob_Farrell]

George:

You're right, it was West Orange Golf Club. I checked with my Dad and he confirmed it, but he also remembers it being across from Pal's before the driving range was built, not where Essex Green is.

Mucci strikes again!!!!!


BF

[George Bahto]

Bob: i think the course was further down Prospect Ave towards the Manor restaurant - I know it wasn't on the corner where the driving range was which then became a shopping area (Korvettes).

I also think before it was called W Orange CC it was the Mountain Ridge CC .........  makes sense because the location of the present Mt Ridge Golf Club in West Caldwell (Ross 1929) certainly isn't on a mountain or a ridge ..... so when Mt Ridge builds their new course the name of the old course changed to West Orange GC -  C&W lists one Mountain Ridge as being NLE in NJ (no town)

along the ridge of First Mountain in those days there was Rock Spring (Raynor and Banks), Essex County (Raynbor and Banks), West Orange GC (David Hunter - whoever he was with alterations by Herbert Strong) and Montclair GC (3 Ross 9s and one Banks 9) all withing a couple miles of each other and not very far away there was Crestmont (originally Newark Athletic Club) (Ross) and Essex Fells CC (the club refers to their course as "Heinz-57" because that was about how many had fooled with it over the years) a little further down the mountain.

BTW: the view of the NY skyline form Rock Springs' dining room in spectacular - by far the best setting.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Farrell,

Mayfair farms sits at an angle across from Pals, and the riding academy, arenas and trails were there before the driving range, then Two Guys.

The NLE golf course is now single family homes on the west side of the mountain, the Essex Green Shopping Mall, and some office buildings.

The club house sat up on the hill, on the west side of Prospect avenue, not far from where the Rusty Scupper restaurant was built.

It may have been the old Mountain Ridge, and something in the back of my mind, recalls an affiliation with the Newark Athletic Club, but that may have been Crestmont, which sits on the other side of the valley, on the other side or Rt 280.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Hey by the way, whats a guy got to do to get published in the "Courses by Architect" and "Courses by Country" section over to the left?   I didn't know if those reviews were all written by Ran or not?  

I do not have any pictures to sprinkle in with these comments, but maybe George could help me with that.  I hope to do a couple more of these as time permits in the next few weeks, and wonder if they are worthy of posting over there?  

I noticed that there was an Essex County listed over there, but it is in Mass.  So none has ever been done on Essex County CC in NJ.

If I can get the income level up a little for Applied Materials (no not that Applied Materials, the one I run) I hope to have a digital camera in the buget for the company next year.

[Bob_Farrell]

George and Pat:

Well this just goes to show one thing............you guys are MUCH older than I am!!!! But thanx because we all learn something new.


Ha Ha!!

BF

[George Bahto]

I'm old as dirt, fella

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

George,  

Do you have any digital images that we can get posted here of some of these holes and the bunkering.  I would really like to see some of these holes again.

I need to get that digital camera for sure.  But in the meantime, anything you or anyone else could help us out with here.  Or possibly email to me.

Thanks,

[George Bahto]

Turboe: - I have lots of before and after photo - I'll e mail rather than talk here

[Matt_Ward]

No one is more qualified to speak about Charles Banks than George Bahto and I just have to ask him how such glorious courses as Forsgate / Banks, Essex County, Hackesnack and The Knoll have flown soooooo low on the radar screen when the subject of top courses is discussed.

I am frankly amazed that very few people really comprehend just how solid the last nine holes are Essex County and that given your work there the front will certainly be enhanced although the first two holes at the course are really lacking.

Your thoughts as to why Banks really gets so little attention?

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Matt,  

You know quirkyness vs. weakness is a tough thing to quantify.  One man can say that a particular hole or course is quirky when another that plays it will call it weak.  I am as guilty as everyone else I guess in getting caught up in the entire course, and if I like it I will tend to overlook a potentially weak hole as just quirky.  However when I play a course without much merit and incounter that same hole it will just confirm what I feel about the courses medocrity and label it as weak.

What I am getting to after all this rambling setup is that ironically enough when I played Essex due to some couples that had just gone off the 1st tee when we came out of the clubhouse.  We started on the 5th hole played through 18 and then played 1-4.  By the time I got to the first and second holes I was so enamored with the course that my impressions had already been set.  

Because of that I found the 2nd hole to be quirky but kind of fun.  Threading a little 1 iron draw around the inside right edge of that hole, hitting over the driveway coming into the course, is something that I will always remember.  The vision of that shot is forever burned in my minds eye.

I wonder how my overall thoughts may have been changed had I started right off the start with #1 and #2?  I wonder if it would have tempered my enthusium overall?  Or do you just have to consider it a little opportunity to "warm-up" on a couple less strenuous holes.

It is an interesting thought.

[George Bahto]

Matt: great question about the lack of acclaim on the Banks courses you mentioned - all here in NJ (not sure about Hackensack).

Let me throw the question right back to you - you've been to all the good classic courses here  - why do YOU think they've been a bit overlooked?

We've got a lot of really great old courses here so it is difficult to get classified higher in the rankings unless the courses got to a meaningful restoration and get some of the teeth back into the design - those features and hazards that were either taken out or, for one reason or another, never implimented by the club as presented by the architect.

Banks was totally overshadowed by the huge "Raynor" name when he was working with him but that should have no bearing on the stature of his courses today.

BTW: for those who did not know, the Raynor/Banks company had the contract for four courses on the Monterey Peninsula which was lost due to Raynor's demise in '26.

Examples:

The Knoll was built as designed and after bunkers are restored (deep and steep) the course will be considerably stronger.  

Essex County on the other hand, did not get the full compliment of hazards presented by Raynor and Banks - like nearly 40 were not put on to the course. That is the interesting thing about ECCC - the course is really strong in spit of relative lack of strategic bunkering off the tee-ball.

Turboe:

If you started on hole-1 it wouldn't really have made a difference, I don't think. What happened was you saw the Raynor/Banks part of the course first and then the Tillie greens.

BTW: 17 may end up to be the best hole on the course, and with #18, topping off that great set of holes on the back nine.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

The answer can only be one thing -- raters from the many different pubs are just not thorough in their homework. Essex County, even before your involvement, is without doubt, in my mind, a minimum top 15 course in NJ. Anyone not listing it at that level must have their head in major league sand. Ditto the lack in understanding the qualities of Forsgate / Banks Course in Jamesburg.

Give you one example -- if you read Doak's comments from Confidential Guide he only mentions the qualities of the 11th. Was he blind to the rest of the back nine? Did he really stand on the 12th tee and see what you have to do? Or the 14th? Or the 16th? Or the 17th? Or the 18th? What a ying and yang of holes! The pacing and routing is first rate stuff indeed!

The issue with Essex County is that many people will run over to Baltusrol and quite a few will hustle to Plainfield, but very few really know anything about Essex County. And, given the fact that Banks / Tillinghast have their fingerprints on the property it amazes me such ignorance among "raters" is so pervasive. Hoepfully, your work there will change that because I know I'm a big fan of the facility and the quality golf shots you must consistently produce.

I also agree with you regarding the lack of defense off the tee when playing Essex County. The addition / realignment of certain bunkers will enhance the overall experience.

George, why different feelings on Hackensack? Also -- any time line on what's happening at The Knoll? You can post or send me a message off-line at mattwardgolf@hotmail.com

Many thanks partner!

Turboe:

Glad you played Essex County because it's vastly underrated by a great many people who live in the metro NY/NJ/CT area.

Regarding the 1st and 2nd holes -- I just think they are plain jane vanilla holes -- although George is doing some marvelous things with the green at #2. I don't doubt that golf courses should have some sort of "welcome" as you begin the round and don't have to be monster holes (i.e. Winged Foot / West). Look at the start of Pebble Beach for a classic example. But, the 1st and 2nd holes can be more thought provoking and I believe what George is doing to the 2nd hole will add to the experience in playing Essex County.
 
Nonetheless, you still have holes on the front side (i.e. 1st, 3rd is just OK and the long par-5 7th) which could be a bit enhanced on the tee-to-green trek.

When you start a course at the 5th in the case of Essex County you are getting ahead of the story / movie line. You cannot imagine how many people stand on the 3rd tee after playing the first two and begin to ask what's the big deal about Essex County. Clearly, they don't say that after they putt out at #18.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

A possible answer to your question to Matt, may lie in the fact that so many of his courses reside in a relatively small area, an area populated with good golf courses.

My theory is, had The Knoll been sold by the Aiello estate to the members attempting to buy it, that the course would be a top 5 in New Jersey, and a top 100 course.

Look at it this way, how many Tillie courses are close together in NJ, How many Ross courses, etc., etc. ?

Banks was unfortunate in that all his eggs are in one basket geographically.  Essex County East/West, Montclair #4, and Rock Spring are all pretty much on the same road, Prospect Ave. A mile apart from each other.
And, The Knoll, Hackensack and Forsgate are a short drive away.  If some of these courses were in Indiana, Kansas or elsewhere, I think they would have gotten more credit, but, they are too close to one another, and reside in a tough competitive neighborhood.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

You pose an interesting answer, however, I approach this from a different perspective. How someone can say they are a bonafide rater and not play or appreciate what Essex County is -- ditto The Knoll and Fosgate, is beyond me? Let me also mention his work at Montclair -- I believe the #4 Nine!

You don't see these same "raters" missing many of the gems on the Island or Westchester do you?

I've played my share of courses that are "rated" and deemed "classic" and it strikes me as odd that people would miss such a wonderful harvest of courses that exist in the compact area you described. I mean this is New Jersey -- we're not talking about treking all over the Midwest.

Let's be real -- Charles Banks wasn't some small time designer. He's no less in quality than many others who are talked about here on GCA. He also has a major connection to Seth Raynor and his work clearly has plenty to offer.

Look, I know of plenty of people who until very recently did not know the qualities of Plainfield for God's sakes. For many people the State of New Jersey has two "known" courses -- PV and the 36 holes in Springfield. Talk about ignorance.

Pat -- you are also right about The Knoll. If course ownership had come out a different way it's likely the course would have been better appreciated.

FYI -- among the Tillie courses located relatively near each other ...

Ridgewood
Somerset Hills
Baltusrol / 36 holes

Among the Ross courses ...

Crestmont
Montclair (portion thereof)
Plainfield

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

But noone has three on the same street a mile apart from each other.

Even Winged Foot East and Baltusrol Upper suffer a little by being so close to their more famous couterpart.  If they were removed geographically, they would get more acclaim.

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