News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Robert Overdorf

Longest Par Fives
« on: November 27, 2002, 11:18:29 AM »
Hello everyone as I am new to this site, my father Bill Overdorf introduced me to this. My dad is currently designing a course in Washington called Chuckanut Ridge, I am his onsite person.

I am trying to locate the Longest Par Fives created with in a reasonable elevation, after further review we have the opportunity to create a very fair and very manageable 700 yard par five from the tips. Given the change in elevation form tee to second landing area approx. 41 ft. the golfer should be able to hit driver, three wood, 6 iron (good golfer from tips).

The Longest I have read about is at Desert Canyon Washington Hole 6 679 yards.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andy Hodson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2002, 11:28:06 AM »
Welcome Robert

About the longest I have played is the 18th at Blaketree National, a course I'm sure no one here has heard of. (Hardly anyone in the city of Houston has heard of it). 657 yards from the all-the-way-back-in-the-trees tee, uphill off the tee, and the day I played it straight into the north wind. The guy I played with (a minor league touring pro) nailed a driver, hit a better 3 wood, and still had five iron for his third. Nothing wrong in my opinion with the length, as the hole is very fair; it just requires a mid to short iron in (depending on the wind).

BTW, I will start a new thread on BTN (esp. how it relates to the notion of "Par"). But an interesting note about the course for most GCAers is that C&C routed and built the first 11 holes before the project went into hibernation; and I think BTN may have been one of their first collaborative efforts.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2002, 11:44:33 AM »
Robert,

there is a par five on the Robert Trent Jones Golf Trail at the Dothan complex (highland oaks?) that is around 705 yards long, and that is at a pretty low elevation (not much above sea level).  In general all of the courses on the trail are pretty long, so with a little looking around you might find some other examples on the trail.  I think they have a website that lists the lengths of all the holes at the different sites.

Keith.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John Nixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2002, 12:21:26 PM »
#13 at Purgatory in Noblesville, IN is around 730ish from the tips, I believe. The course's website has pretty good photos if you're interested.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2002, 12:23:59 PM »
Robert;

I guess I'd ask why the emphasis on length?  

Are you trying to determine if the hole should be a par five or a par six, or are the developers hoping to market the idea of "the longest par five"??

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2002, 12:38:26 PM »
#13 at Purgatory is 741 yards from the alternate back tees.  Probably 700-800 feet above sea level.

#9 at The Gallery in Marana, AZ is 726 yards, all downhill, and is probably between 2000-3000 feet above sea level.

#1 at Wake Forest GC, in Wake Forest, NC (my home course) is 711 yards.  Tee shot is all downhill (~300 yards), but final 150 yards are straight uphill.  Creek crossing fairway at 190 yards in is in a bad location, because it's the landing area for 2nd shots from decent drives.  Layups are always necessary, except for longest hitters.  It's at about 400 feet above sea level.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert Overdorf

Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2002, 01:02:44 PM »
Mike the lay of the land and the routing afforded us the ability to create this length hole. We initially were looking at creating a Par 6 but decided against it. With several tee locations and the lay of the land we can create a playable and fair hole for all. Leading up to the 18th hole are 17 fantastic holes. The routing and flow offer a very playable course for all. I really like the fact that the longest hole on the course is the final hole, with the grading my dad is doing we will have a fairway over 60 yards wide, very fair. What are your thoughts!  I appreciate your input and value all opinions, as collectively, we as a group should all be interested in the correct growth of this great industry.

Quote
Robert;

I guess I'd ask why the emphasis on length?

Are you trying to determine if the hole should be a par five or a par six, or are the developers hoping to market the idea of "the longest par five"??


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2002, 02:45:35 PM »
Robert Overdorf,

Pine Tree has two.

# 5 is 620 from all the way back
# 16 is 670 from all the way back

Both holes, and the entire course are flat as a pancake with prevailing winds hurting and helping
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2002, 03:04:33 PM »
Robert;

I guess the trick is to somehow make the hole challenging enough for the best players, while not just being a long SLOG for the average golfer.  

Most of the very long par fives I've seen generally fail at this task, although I know one about 620 at an unknown course called Hickory Valley in PA that succeeds in that about as well as I've seen.  The 15th at Pine Valley is another good example.

If every shot has interest and challenge for every level of player, then you have yourself a good hole.  It just seems that the longer one gets, the wider the gap between the games (and interest levels) of the scratch player versus the average handicap golfer.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2002, 04:02:27 PM »
There's a long par-5 hole at the new Bear Brook Golf Course in Fredon, NJ. It plays 700 yards and is simply aweful. It's really designed in the event airplanes miss Newark Libert Int'l Airport and need a place to land.

The hole at Purgatory is a good one when played from 630 yards. When they strecth it to 700+ it has the potential in lowering the standing of an otherwise solid golf course.

Ditto the hole at The Gallery in Arizona. By the way this hole is not ALL DOWNHILL.

P.S. I do like the hole at Desert Canyon in Washington State because it does go downhill and the options are there for all levels of players. Simply put -- a fine hole!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2002, 04:36:00 PM »
For those of you who have never seen this beautiful area just south of Bellingham, Wa. it is incredible.  What Robert has not mentioned is that it rains here a lot. The course I grew up on is not too far from Chuckanut, Sudden Valley is so underwater for most of the year that it's 6500 yards plays closer to 7000 except for a couple of months. A 700 yard par five sounds kinda gimicky to me, especially in northwest Washington. I do hope it works out though. I

Robert,
Could you post any pictures of the site? It will really create some interest I'm sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert Overdorf

Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2002, 06:49:33 PM »
Shooter, Thank you so much, let me take the time to describe to everyone what shooter has stated so correctly. I owned a house in the Sudden Valley Golf Course Development and have played every course in the area many times. To play a 700 hundred yard hole in the Northwest is like playing a 750 yard hole anywhere else. With that said we recognize the need to make not only this hole but the whole course DRY.This hole also plays North, which means in the summer, spring, and major part of the fall the prevailing wind is from the south. My father is one of the best architects that I have had the pleasure to work with, his ability to route a course to a site is fantastic. The number one rule in my mind when designing a course is the routing or layout, 1)does it flow, 2)does it fit the land naturally, 3)DOES IT DRAIN. The site we are talking about has it all, one of our many jobs on this site is to ensure that the last issue is addressed, especially on 18 in the landing areas. One of the great aspects of this long hole is that from the end of the first landing area to the green it is only 340 yards. With the gradual and continued slope (41 feet from Tee to the  landing area)the ball will roll out even in the winter. In bad conditions we can set the course up so that the yardage is not as severe from the Tee.
I welcome all ideas and input as I love learning, not only do I serve as my fathers onsite designer but I also GPS map golf courses all over the U.S., and have been fortunate to map many. At each one when mapping, I let my design eye that my Dad gave me wander, and critique each and every course I am on. This affords me with a tool of do's and don'ts for future projects we work on. I believe that when we are done building this course it will get National recognition just like Aspen Lakes did. I will post some pictures as soon as possible and welcome the opportunity to give any one wanting to see the site a tour. I am very proud of not only the site but also the designer and would like to make this his best work. I Thank everyone for the Par Fives as it is easy for me to look them up and see what there story is. I also have read what you all have written and learned from that.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone

Robert
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2002, 10:23:58 PM »
Well, since when your dad posted a few weeks ago asking about an opportunity to close a course with a par 6 that would play 750 yards from the tips and I argued that was on the verge of being too short for a par 6, I can't very well argue anything but that the same hole at 700 yards for a par 5 is reasonable. If the run out of the landing area is 340 yards from the green, and the fairway is generously wide, it sounds extremely fair and justified in being a bit longer than most other long par 5s. If the actual distance on the card shows up with a '7' in front of it I'm sure it'll draw attention, but so long as it doesn't get played up too much to where people think that's what the course is all about it should be fine regardless of how it compares to other par 5s, so I wouldn't worry too much about how it measures up with other long par 5s. Plus I guess if you had thought about it as a 750 yard hole there'll be room to lengthen it once equipment advances have too many people getting on in two ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Robert Overdorf

Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2002, 11:48:01 PM »
Doug

Thanks for the input, you are absolutely right in your response. We would like the course to be known as 18 great holes, no one signature hole, and no bad holes. We all know that is difficult with all the varied opinions out there. I was introduced to this discussion  site through my Dad when he asked about the ability to create a Par 7, it has proved helpful in our assessment of the hole.

The one good aspect of the length, is where it plays on the course, it is the last hole of the day, and the golfer will be coming into the hole having hit drivers on 5 of the last 6 holes, 12(par 4 435), 13(par 5 540), 14(par 4 445), 15(par 3 170), 16 (par 4 420), 17(par 4 370). I believe this to be a spectacular finishing hole with allot of risk reward, yet abundantly fair.

Thank you and Happy Holidays

Robert
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2002, 07:56:11 AM »
I would like to break up the discussion, just a bit, with word of a new design that is not quite off the drawing board. At Lava Mountain Golf Course in Henderson, Nevada we have planned a 380-yard PAR-5. Yes, just 380-yards. The uphill climb is nearly 85 feet, twisting around a desert ravine, a small hill and finally to the slopes of an extinct volcanic cinder cone.

I believe Geoff Cornish recently wrote a significant piece about the longest holes and courses -- but I cannot recall the publication. Bob, perhaps a nice note to Mr. Cornish would get the information you need. Rest assured, however, that someone will outdo it within a few years. Say, that gives me an idea...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2002, 08:02:23 AM »
forrest:

Your post reminds me of the first hole at Broadmoor in Seattle.  If I'm not mistaken, it is a 441-yard (or so) par 5!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Bill Overdorf

Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2002, 10:08:50 PM »
:)Hi Shooter,

I read with interest your comments regarding the nature of the area south of Bellingham. I am compelled to agree 100% with you. Unfortunately, few of the respondents to the GCA discussion group have any knowledge of this part of the world. Craig Edgmand is one who occasionally writes with positive commentary regarding some of the stuff for which I have been responsible and another contributor seems to have a handle on some of the local situation, but for the most part we seem to exist in a totally undiscovered part of the living world. Perhaps it is better that way.

I had to cringe though, when I read my son Robert's typo in his response to Doug Siebert wherein he made reference to my consideration of a Par 7. Absolutely scared the hell out of me but I hope all recognized it as the typo it was. The elevation dynamics of the hole in question show a 41 foot drop from the back tee to the first landing area that is ultimately generous with its 80 yard width at the 320 yard distance with extended roll out to a distance of 360 yards short of containment bunkering just shy of a wetland beyond. Other than the big spender from the way-backs, the hole's character is probably best defined by the design configuration for the middle tee player ( five tees ) who is given the above mentioned massive width as a target, then 200 yards to a second large landing area twelve feet lower in elevation short of a wetland beyond and on the right. The third is a shot of choice in that the line of flight crosses an angled linear wetland in a slight valley 120 yards distant from the second landing area. A generous fairway is available for a bail-out third as an alternative to a 210 yard carry to a large softened biarritz type green site that is about six feet higher.

This hole's setting carries a huge degree of intrigue in its natural state. Our primary mission now is to avoid applying an abundance of man's influence and tendency to become "creative".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2002, 09:07:11 AM »
Bill,
Chuckanut drive, winding along the ocean is perhaps one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen. I can only imagine the possiblities of creating a golf course on some of this property. Where is your course going to be? Your son's post brought back memories of high school keg parities accross from the state park up on the hill, the view of the sound from there is amazing.
I commented on an eariler thread that I thought that this area was starved for good golf, and has some of the most promising property for good golf.
What are you favorite courses in the area?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert Overdorf

Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2002, 04:56:39 PM »
Shooter

Chuckanut is located on I-5 between the rest area (heading south) and Bow Hill road exactly half way between Mt. Vernon and Bellingham. you will be able to see all of 13 and 14 as they parallel I-5. As for my favorite courses in the area I would have to go with Lake Padden first as it boasts one of the best layouts I have played. It is not bad for the length and the condition, I like semiamhoo as it has some of the best Par 4's, also a very nice layout. Homestead is a good track and has some holes that I would put on any course, the 18th hole has to be one of the best designed risk reward Par fives I have ever played. From every tee there is a emphasis on what shot you choose to play, for every second shot the emphasis is once again placed on a decision  of what to do. When you  get to the third all you have to do is conquer a Island green with a shot of about 70 to 100 yards. Me personally I always try for it in 2.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert Overdorf

Re: Longest Par Fives
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2002, 05:02:06 PM »
Shooter

Chuckanut is located on I-5 between the rest area (heading south) and Bow Hill road exactly half way between Mt. Vernon and Bellingham. you will be able to see all of 13 and 14 as they parallel I-5. As for my favorite courses in the area I would have to go with Lake Padden first as it boasts one of the best layouts I have played. It is not bad for the length and the condition, I like semiamhoo as it has some of the best Par 4's, also a very nice layout. Homestead is a good track and has some holes that I would put on any course, the 18th hole has to be one of the best designed risk reward Par fives I have ever played. From every tee there is a emphasis on what shot you choose to play, for every second shot the emphasis is once again placed on a decision  of what to do. When you  get to the third all you have to do is conquer a Island green with a shot of about 70 to 100 yards. Me personally I always try for it in 2.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back